Are VVS losses reasonable?

[Stamb]

I was out of trained pilots during Leningrad isolation that fortunately is over. I did not check my pool but I think that it should be 300-400 at a minimum.
If there are battles in the air - it is always a blood bath. During initial turns it was something like 800 soviets pilots KIA per turn.

[MechFO]

The loss rate per sortie is much too high. Losing 200 planes from being intercepted by 50 just never happened. Reasonably a WITE2 sortie covers several real life sorties, since several sorties a day were normal, but even then units would have ceased operations long before being wiped out in this manner.

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: MechFO

The loss rate per sortie is much too high. Losing 200 planes from being intercepted by 50 just never happened. Reasonably a WITE2 sortie covers several real life sorties, since several sorties a day were normal, but even then units would have ceased operations long before being wiped out in this manner.

I agree, however, I think the results need to be viewed in the context that turns are 7 days long.

How long did that land battle last? Eight hours, a day, three days or, even 6 days. Thus it is quite feasible for those kinds

of losses to occur over a period of time that a turn equates to.

Land losses can be viewed the same in this regard. Did the Russians in a battle over a single hex ever lose hundreds of

tanks and 20K casualties in a single day? Sure but rarely. They did incur these kinds of losses regularly in singular battles

over the period of a few days to a week.

[cameron88]

ORIGINAL: loki100

no it was in virtue of producing fighters that were a very good fit to their doctrine and finally getting control over their pilot training

by the end the Axis couldn't deal with the Yak-3

This is just objectively untrue and mega cope over the VVS being literally terrible. With the sole exception of ground attack, which only happened when the Luftwaffe had no planes able to intercept in the area, because as AlbertN pointed out, lots of the Luftwaffe was in the West and unable to intercept these missions.

[Bertram]

during the offensive the Russians flew 60,995 sorties, dropped 15,000 tonnes of bombs and lost 1,104 aircraft,

61k sorties, with 1100 aircraft lost... I wish my Russians could do this good. Mine lose generally about 1 aircraft in every 10 sorties, so they would have lost 6100 planes in this case....

[Jango32]

Unsure about the current patch but before operational losses with lots of sorties were high for everybody involved. VIII Fliegerkorps during Citadel flew 14 398 sorties in 11 days and suffered 99 losses from all causes according to Zetterling. Flying that many sorties in two turns would absolutely wreck your air force in previous patches.

[Zovs]

Basically in all your examples the Axis (or Germans) are the winners of each of the combats in you screenshots (the Germans have less losses versus the Soviets).

Example #1.
Axis loss ratios:
Fighters: 22.2% (45 sortie with 10 losses)

Soviet loss ratios:
Fighters: 64.4% (149 sortie with 96 losses)
Bombers: 64.1% (120 sortie with 77 losses)

Total Axis to Soviet loss ratio: 5.7%
-------------------------------------
Example #2.
Axis loss ratios:
Fighters: 11.9% (42 sortie with 5 losses)

Soviet loss ratios:
Fighters: 50% (152 sortie with 76 losses)
Bombers: 31.6% (142 sortie with 45 losses)

Total Axis to Soviet loss ratio: 4.1%
-------------------------------------
Example #3.
Axis loss ratios:
Fighters: 2.3% (42 sortie with 1 loss)

Soviet loss ratios:
Fighters: 77.04% (61 sortie with 47 losses)
Bombers: 93.5% (154 sortie with 144 losses)

Total Axis to Soviet loss ratio: 0.52%
--------------------------------------
Example #4.
Axis loss ratios:
Fighters: 14.28% (21 sortie with 3 loss)

Soviet loss ratios:
Fighters: 42.10% (19 sortie with 8 losses)

Total Axis to Soviet loss ratio: 37.5%
--------------------------------------
Example #5.
Axis loss ratios:
Fighters: 17.14% (35 sortie with 6 loss)

Soviet loss ratios:
Fighters: 11.76% (102 sortie with 12 losses)
Bombers: 3.63% (110 sortie with 4 losses)

Total Axis to Soviet loss ratio: 37.5%
--------------------------------------

I would consider only example # 3 to be "excessive VVS losses" but the Germans only lost 1 aircraft out of 42 sortied. So I think these losses and the loss ratio is reasonable.

[Nikel]

For those interested, this is a statistical source in russian of the air war in the eastern front: VG Nikiforov, Soviet aviation in the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945, in numbers. 1962

http://militera.lib.ru/h/sovaviation/index.html


It comes in several .xls files.

The relevant with losses is number 6.


You can google translate documents, but admits .xlsx, not .xls, so before you have to save the .xls as .xlsx, upload it to google translate and then download the translation.


For the Soviet side:

I see in the first tabs (233, 234, 235) the total sorties as 2.904.777

And the total aircraft losses (tab 256) as 38.409


So the ratio loss:sortie is 1:75,63.


Does this make sense? May someone confirm?

[Stamb]

That is interesting document.
I understand, but do not speak Russian well.

Lets compare 1941 from that document and from my pvp game.

According to this picture


losses for a fighters are:

in the air combat: 1380
AA fire: 350
destroyed on the airfields: 1286
did not comeback from a sortie: 1400

total: 4416 fighters


My game numbers for November 16, 1941:




I-153 1376
I-15bis 501

I16 Type 18 668
I16 Type 23 1988
I16 Type 29 311
I16 Type 5 67

Yak 1 920
Lagg 3 1158
Mig 3 2572

Total: 9561

It is twice as much as in real life, if we can trust my calculations and data in the tables for a fighters.

[Stamb]

Lol there is already total info in the game, no need to calculate it manually

[Stamb]

So it is 1 German fighter (as allies go straight to reserve/Soviet garrison) for 9 Soviets.

[Jango32]

The officially admitted Russian fighter losses for the VVS, post-USSR (so the Krivosheev study) in 1941 are 9600 fighters, so I'd say the VVS losses align with the Krivosheev study.

[Nikel]

It would be even worse because you have not ended the year 1941 yet.

To what corresponds the 4th column? 47+101+13+372=533

Google translates it as stormtroopers. LOL [:)]

Would it be interceptors or fighter bombers?

[Stamb]

Tactical bombers
Like il 2

This type:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_aircraft

When you switch to russian wiki you get Штурмовик

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D1 ... 0%B8%D0%BA

[Nikel]

Oh, I see.

Searching for "stormtroopers" in the translated workbook it appears also in tab 255, and includes IL-2 and IL-10.

[vvs007]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

losses for a fighters are:

in the air combat: 1380
AA fire: 350
destroyed on the airfields: 1286
did not comeback from a sortie: 1400

total: 4416 fighters

plus 662 fighters PVO command (tab.258)
plus 400-500 fighters Sea command (VVS VMF) (tab.260)

total: at least 5500 fighters

the figures are similar, but different in the structure of losses.

the main problem is in the calculations that the Germans and Russians used completely different systems for accounting for "dead" aircraft. The Russians have everything that landed at the airfield, but could not fly out the next day - these are all combat losses, including aircraft transferred for repair (for example, in the Battle of Kursk transferred for repair about 70% of "combat" losses). The Germans, on the other hand, had a "damage-percentage system", only an aircraft was considered in combat losses if it was 100% destroyed. If an aircraft was found in the field by advancing german tanks, and the rear services sent it to the Reich, but the report shows 85% damage, then such an aircraft was not included in combat losses. At the factory, it could be melted down or restored.

in the game we expect the same accounting system, and it is very difficult to make it.

in any case, the lethality of German fighters is too high. For example, near Kursk in July 43, there were 90% of all Lufftwaffe fighters on the Eastern front. The losses of the Germans to at least 684 aircraft (damage more 60%)*, the Russians had at least 2558 aircraft (taking into account non-combat and not restored under repair).

The 2nd Air Army made 10,366 sorties during the day and 2,562 sorties at night from 5/07/43 to 23/07/43, with a loss of 437 aircraft. Almost 30 sorties for 1 aircraft loss. These are the most intense air battles of the entire war. Compare with what is in the WITE2 air war

_______
*the figure was calculated from German archives or restored from russian reports of inspection of captured airfields, etc. . historian Vitaly Gorbach (unfortunately his books and films are not published in English)

an estimate of 60% is applied - which quite accurately reflects whether the aircraft will be restored or disassembled for spare parts. But as we remember, there are "no losses" in German documents

[Stamb]

That is why I made this topic. Current system for Soviets air war is very brutal, probably the only 1 area where Soviets are not overpowered and underperform

[RC01214]

Didn't Russian and German tank losses irl also have the same issue as you described?

[vvs007]

ORIGINAL: RC01214

Didn't Russian and German tank losses irl also have the same issue as you described?

yes, something similar... as long as there is hope to restore the tank, it is not considered lost for Wehrmacht,
indicative February 43 - irretrievable losses of 1842 medium and heavy tanks and self-propelled guns per month!. For all 1942 year only 2562... what happened in February 43? written off in combat losses, all tanks and spgs that remained near Stalingrad, because the hope for repairs died with the Sixth Army.

the main combat losses = tanks left on the battlefield , quite possible for repair(2/3 and more?) ... but, this mechanic is just implemented in WITE 2 at a good level. The difference is immediately visible, if the Panzer division retreated or hold. Thx to DEV!

Russians, again, in combat losses include what cannot be repaired on the first line (in the workshops of the brigade) ... some repaired at tank factories were included as well as the release of new ones. Overestimated immediately factories output and losses. If Stalin knew how we are racking our brains over this here, he would have taken into account the German system as more advantageous in terms of loss ratios

[Jango32]

There's a world of difference between total loss and recoverable loss. All the major combatants differentiated between the two.