'pocket decoy' house rule?

[RangerJoe]

The difference is AK vs xAK.

[Lobster]

All the fishing trawlers were was fishing trawlers with radios. I highly doubt the ones the Doolitle people ran across were even pickets since there was no messages sent. Nothing special about making a ship a picket in WW2 regardless of any designation. The Navy would have just stuck a letter to it and put a Navy crew aboard. You could do that with any type of ship. No big deal. A ship, a radio, presto, picket. However there were better uses for cargo ships. If the game has so many cargo ships they can be used as picket then maybe something is wrong with the game because there were never enough cargo ships.

[Platoonist]

All the fishing trawlers were was fishing trawlers with radios. I highly doubt the ones the Doolitle people ran across were even pickets since there was no messages sent.

Actually, the Nitto Maru's contact report was received aboard the Yamato shortly after breakfast that day. The absence of any follow-up transmissions from the ship only seemed to confirm the report. Admiral Ugaki recorded that the fleet staff went into action at once. Admiral Yamamoto ordered units of the First and Second Fleet to sea to intercept. Admiral Nagumo whose carrier task force was off Formosa on its way home from the Indian Ocean raid was ordered to proceed at speed to the waters east of Japan. The air group of the carrier Kaga which was in port repairing hull damage from running aground in Staring Bay in the Dutch East Indies was also put on alert.

What the Nitto Maru didn't notice were B-25s parked on one of the carrier decks. Since it was an outer picket line the Japanese assumed the carriers were 400 to 500 miles from a realistic launch position. Which meant Tokyo could not be threatened until the next morning at the soonest. Later, an inner picket ship spotted incoming twin-engine bombers and radioed it in. But this report was shrugged off as an obvious error.

[Lobster]

Neat. Thanks for that.

[Chris21wen]

Sending small PBs out to patrol is one thing but sending xAKs and xAKLs is something that I would not tolerate.

It happen, so why not?

Because the PBs are military vessels with military crews and the xAKs and xAKLs are civilian vessels even if they are armed with military gun crews the crew running the ship are civilians. The military should protect the civilians and not hide behind them.

That is a moot point. I do not know who crewed the boats. When requisitioned did the cew come with it? As you said, many a merchant ship had trained personnel on board to man the guns. Arguably if you can fire a gun your not a civiilian! Further, fishing boats were attackl throughout the war, fishing being a important food source. Further still we think nothing of sinking a xAK carrying supplies or resources so what's the difference?

[Sardaukar]

I have nothing against using e.g. xAKLs as "picket lines".

It is viable tactic that has been used hundred of years and as said Japanese used it in WW II.

[btd64]

I have nothing against using e.g. xAKLs as "picket lines".

It is viable tactic that has been used hundred of years and as said Japanese used it in WW II.

Exactly....GP

[Platoonist]

According to an August 1945 report from the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations these picket ships were also used as a DEW system against the B-29 raids. Thus, supplementing Japan's not terribly sophisticated land-based radars.

B-29 warning system.jpg (90.85 KiB) Viewed 541 times

[btd64]

Good info....GP

[Sardaukar]

Might still be prudent to agree if they can be used as such in PBEM.

Another nasty trick is to use single xAKLs to draw long-range Betty's and Nellies into "CAP-trap". This is one of the cases where long range of those bombers is not beneficial.

Using single xAKLs to sneak in supply is perfectly legit too.

[Yaab]

Wait, did the USN have a sort of a DEW line employing merchant ships during WWII in the PTO?

[Platoonist]

Wait, did the USN have a sort of a DEW line employing merchant ships during WWII in the PTO?

Nothing as elaborate as Japan. There were the various Sea Frontier commands which generally started at the shore of the United States and extended outwards into the sea for a nominal distance of two hundred miles. The patrol ship of choice being mostly the YP-type "tuna boats" and Coast Guard cutters. They mostly searched for submarines both German and Japanese.

When it came to enemy planes it was up to radar, aerial patrols and ground observers. When Japanese Warrant Officer Nobuo Fujita made his famous 1942 air raid attempting to set ablaze the coastal forests of Oregon his plane was spotted appropriately enough from a fire lookout station.

[LargeSlowTarget]

I'm with Platoonist, RangerJoe and bradfordkay against the use of xAK/xAKL types as pickets.

There is nothing wrong per se using pickets, but there was more to it than just ordering a civilian ship (i.e. an xAk / xAKL type) with civilian captain, civilian crew - plus an armed naval guard for the guns if any - to go out on a patrol.

Legally, the ships had to be under naval authority.

Technically, they needed to be adapted for picket duty, which obviously is different from cargo carrying or fishing activities.

Therefore, picket boats were ex-civilian ships converted for military use, crewed and captained by military personnel, not civilians (although when authorities proceeded to requisition a boat, the civilian crew often was retained and simply declared naval reservists) and adapted to their specific purpose (for ex. installation of more powerful radios and antennae mounted on taller masts for increasing transmitting range, while landing the fishing nets, cargo handling gear etc.)

In short, the pickets were no longer civilian fishing trawlers or cargo ships but military patrol craft.

In game terms, that means an upgrade period and a switch from xAk/xAKL designations to PB or PC designations.

Using an xAk/xAKL on cargo duty one day, picket duty the next day, and maybe back to cargo duty next week is not realistic.

[Yaab]

Well, Japanese OOB has those small 120 tonnes xAKL that can serve as trawler pickets. Allies have no small xAKL class to roleplay as trawlers. Allied smallest xAKLs have, what, 1000 capacity?

[LargeSlowTarget]

Not in stock maybe (I haven't touched stock scens in years) but in DaBabes and spin-offs the Allies get small fry, e.g. the "tuna boats" known as "Yippies" from their YP class designation.

[RangerJoe]

Well, Japanese OOB has those small 120 tonnes xAKL that can serve as trawler pickets. Allies have no small xAKL class to roleplay as trawlers. Allied smallest xAKLs have, what, 1000 capacity?

Those To'su class ships can be converted to PBs.

[Chris21wen]

Well, Japanese OOB has those small 120 tonnes xAKL that can serve as trawler pickets. Allies have no small xAKL class to roleplay as trawlers. Allied smallest xAKLs have, what, 1000 capacity?

If this is stock I'm not sure where this came from. There are no 120t xAKL in the game for either side.

The smallest cargo for the Japaneses is the To'su as Joe said at 215t. Generally they are too small in cargo capacity (170) and short legged (2100) so are only usefully for really short supply runs as xAKL. This also restricts them as PBs so I convert the majority to ACM or AMc.

The next is the later Std-F at 475t (450)(3600) then the Kiso-E at 830t (795)(4000), these Kiso-E get convert to AG and PBs.

The smallest Allied cargo are not in fact an xAKL, but the Br xAK Straits/Raub at 720t (600)(2600) with the larger Br Coastal Cargo 1050t (1000)(4000) being xAKL, Don't ask why!

[Yaab]

The smallest cargo for the Japaneses is the To'su as Joe said at 215t. Generally they are too small in cargo capacity (170) and short legged (2100) so are only usefully for really short supply runs as xAKL. This also restricts them as PBs so I convert the majority to ACM or AMc.

Yes, this is the class I had in mind. Thanks.