American Infantry to cheap!

[Nikademus]

One thing to 'suggest' might be to try playing a few games with the national characteristics turned off. At least in regards to the orig poster's complaint about the quick rallying of US forces that is definately the NC preference in action.
Remember also that the German player recieves a slight penalty to his rallying capability as well. (i dont know how much but i have seen it in action plenty of times, even with a unit with a 70+ rally rating)

with respect to Ammosgt's morass of points and generalities i do feel that exp and morale should be the major determiner's of a nation's preformance irregardless of nationality. It must be remembered though that weapons play a large role too and the US right from the days of SP-1 always had a firepower advantage at the squad level.

Still, regardless the US it must be remembered was an all-volunteer army (before the war) and then the draft swelled the army's rank and files to massive preportions. By virtue of this, with some exceptions (all nations usually had a cadre of well trained troops) in the beginning stages US forces will be quite green.

Tactics remain the most important determinate and that i do agree with. I've routed the AI with green troops (US included)

I hav'nt seen an imbalance though as most of the US battles i've played recently were 'canned' scenerios and not generated battles and a large share of the US forces had good leader and exp ratings. I did have a few greenies though and i did notice a difference in their preformance vs the more experienced units.

[AmmoSgt]

Why PS: me like somehow i am the only person complaining about the units .. every thread i post on on this subject was started by somebody else complaing just as much as I about some imagined injustice... If you want to silence my concerns then ask the german players to have some faith address their concerns in the same tone you take with me ... not pat them on the head and assure them the big bad americans will be further dumbed down like with the jeeps, the arty, the pricing on tanks, so long as threads are posted asking ya'll to dumb down americans and i can predict with the accuracy that they will be dumbed down like on the jeep thread .. and so long as new thread asking for further dumbing down get started the next day .. i am going to post and connect the dots ..." PS :" the guys starting the threads .. singling me out does no good ...

[Alby]

Actually, My first girlfriend was too cheap, and she came too early as well!
NO!! I didnt just say that!!!
geez, im outta here, im getting out of hand! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[chaos45]

Ammo the point costs I used were from starting a battle and checking the cost of the units. The costs of the units is figured by exp and morale for that time period because of the adjusted base esp and morale points. You evidently checked the encyclopedia whcih wouldnt reflect the costs in actual play. Start a battle and then check point cost of the forces that you can buy. The results should be the same.

Im sorry if pointing out that the americans have more men, better equipment, and the same exp/morale ratings yet are for some reason cheaper upset some people. All Im addressing with this post is game balance not historical issues.

Ammo: you want to take away panzerfaust fine with me just give the germans real tank hunting units like they had in the war. Small groups of men with cluster grenades and satchel charges. Which is how the germans delt with tanks in close before panzerfausts. But I forgot those arent in the game are they.

[AmmoSgt]

Chaos i am about the only person that has never advocated taking out any unit ..by all means give the germans what they really had and let them keep what they have that they didn't have .. i never said i wanted th panzerfausts removed or racheted down in range to when they really existed and what they could really do ... i piinted it out simply as an example of how the game is already balanced to give the germans an edge as it is ...i have never ..nor will i ever start a thread asking the folks who do the game to cripple my opponents so i can win .. thats not my style.. my style is to learn better tactics ..i have always said it was tactics in every thread i have posted on .. ask the folks that do the OOB's, I have no infulence with them whatsoever ..if i did i wouldn't have to email twice to get one reply.. i wouldn't have Paul and David telling me not to post.. i wouldn't get told to "calm down" by frantic paniced forum moderators .. and if i could give you what the germans had, i would .. but the last thing you need , if you really want tank killer teams , is me agrguing FOR it LOL

[MrWhite]

While were giving requests, I'ld like USO shows put in, and Enitre American Sniper Companies, yeah yeah, that sounds good, and ohh yeah and Pattons with 16 Inch Naval Guns, Matrix you writitng this down?

Is any one catching the levity of this yet, there is a game editor for scenrios in the package, it only takes a little time and effor to go thru and make the scenario teh way you want it, if you feel they are bad, tehn change it, don't force the entire community to accept minor changes as such that can be easily made with the tools provided. Does the game have everything down pat, no... But that's waht the editor is for... If you don't like something fix it yourself, now if it's something major like a flaw or such then sure... That's something that can be chalked up as a problem, but really 99 percent of this is exact figure twisting that can be solved by player prefrence and nothing more in the editor.

So lets all just look at that for a moment and see if this discussion is really all that needed?

MrWhite

[AmmoSgt]

Mr White ... we are talking about ..well i am talking about ..PBEM where OOB's must match in order to play .. The AI doesn't care what you have or how you soup it up... the PBEM player especially the american's have most of their heavy arty and other selected troublesome units set to availablity in 49 like on board 4.5 inch rockets and 155 long toms while the germans have very few such restrictions .. The PBEM standard is the OOB's that come with the game ... if they are dumbed down so the german can win ,in too many ,catergories ..the over all effect is cumlative... thats why i think the current dumbing down of arty effects is where it should stop .... one of the reasons i don't play as germans is nothing to do with the fact their equiment was built by slaves or that they have a horrendious reputation as war criminals , and arrogance and racist propaganda is mistaken for elite status embarassing all who hold Military Honor as something important .. It has every thing to do with the fact that when I win a game ..I don't want the knowledge that it was whining and "game balancing" that gave me the win ....

[Michael Wermelin]

Well, I have been playing spwaw since version 1.0 and I must say that I scarcly find it interesting to play as or against US anymore. They are just too d... good. Their point value does not measure up to their effectiviness.

Some people here seem to whant a pure historical game. HOW fun is that?

Besides, some people may give all the cred to the americans for winning the war. But one who has read his history for so many years knows that it was in the east the allied won the war, not in the west. Without the eastern front, there would never had been an Omaha.

Sometimes it feels like some people wants a game were the americans can kick the ass of every other nation and always get a major victory.

The american forces had superior number of men, superior amount of weapons, armor and supplies and thereby the best strategical position. The germans had two fronts, decreasing supplies and materials where all enemies had increasing.

Best soldiers on the field, during the war? I don't know, but the tactics and leadership? The germans, no doubt about it.

Can it be proven the german doctrines of war and tacticts were the best? Yes, where does all modern tactics come from? Who, if not the allied forces copied in growing portions the german ways of war.

Am I bitter? No, the game is great, but I never play with or against the US anymore, it has proven to be no match. I like to play small nations and Sovs. Fins are my favourite.

[Charles2222]

With the way I play, generally, the cost of US infantry isn't a factor, but even so, I am a bit astonished that such potent troops are so inexpensive. I thought when these costs were being figured, they were done so as per effectiveness of the unit. Somebody that's carrying rifle/bar/bazooka ought to be quite expsensive. OTOH, am I correct to think that the cost per effectiveness reworking, was done pretty much only on the self-propelled armor level? In any case it sure obvious the infantry needs some going over.

[Charles2222]

AmmoSgt: Don't you think it'r ridiculous, if I understand the original jeep complaint, that a ton of them can run around and be relatively invincible? It's not a US thing as you like to imagine. I can point out to you a GERMAN unit, which I bet would be even more of a pest if it were used so unrealistically. Not only is it a size 1, but it is also a FO, has good speed I imagine, but it's also 'hard-topped'. Now how difficult could that little tick be to eliminate? It's the 250 Beob or a Beob of some sort anyway. My whole point is that if you fix the jeep problem, you also probably fix the HT problem that so many found strange about taking out the GERMAN HTs, which, of course, would also apply to Beobs.

I would suspect that people haven't complained about Beobs, because no German player has been silly enough to try it, but apparently there are those who enjoy jeep blitzkreigs.

[Paul Vebber]

Why do people keep thinging the The Infantry on the side that won ..on the side that killed or captured ten times what they lost in manpower and won the war are somehow less proficent than the very army they beat hands down in North Africa and Sicily... I don't get it ...

Did you read Col Dupuy's Understanding War or M. van Creveld's "Fighting power"

The former examines 50 engagements between the German Army and the US Army and the effectiveness difference was a bit over 1.5 to 1 in favor of the Germans. I guess the 5 years of fighting from 39-44 actually counted for something.

The Good News was that the Allies had a better than 1.5 to one numerical advantage, so were able to fight a war of attrition that simply bled the Germans to death.

Read van Creveld, he has all the facts on how screwed up the US army was compared to the Germans. We won because we had MORE LOWER quality stuff, (and a better Geo-strategic position from which to leverage it from) whether it be tanks or infantry men.

The lesson to be learned is that the best operational art and tacics only prolong the inevitable if used to attain flawed strategic goals.

Not that the US proficeincy was better than Germans because we won.

[Nikademus]

Ammo: well i for one am not trying to silence anyone, but you hurt your case, and the direction of this thread when you ramble off like an engine that has slipped its govenor. And what the heck does slave labour and politics have to do with the orig poster's question??

and beware of sweeping generalities. I for one have never preposed eliminating any weapons from the OOB's so there's one generalization of yours thats gone out the window

To get back to the point of the question. Should US squads cost more, and attached to it, the question of are US fire routines 'off' in favor of that nationality.

Personally i think many of the point selection costs are skewed and have said so
in the past. I believe that 'true economic cost' as well as availability should factor in. I believe this issue transends all the unit types, aritllery, infantry and tank. example: high production cost types such as Tiger's and Panthers should be raised. Conversely Shermans should be cheap because they were mass-produced and plentiful.

The only real solution, and one btw infinately preferable to removing units from the OOB's is to establish guidelines before starting a game with another player. One cant really complain about unfair tactics, unit musters if the issue has'nt been discussed beforehand.

As to US squad effectiveness, a simple question; has anybody tested the theory that the fire routines are defective with a set # of battles **and** with the national characteristics turned off?

I hav'nt but given all this controversy i think i'm gonna because i'd like to know too.
A game that does'nt have fair and historical mechanics is not nearly as much fun to play. I've always loved playing SP because of its exacting detail and ability to decently portray tactical battles. If you have a set of elite troops. (high 80's - 90's) with good leaders, its a pleasure to see em in action as you attempt to win the engagement.

If you have green or inexperience troops (50's to low 60's) its also a pleasure to see em struggle as it represents a nice challenge to one's skills to try to carry the day regardless.

notice that i'm not even mentioning nationalities.

My concern is that the game treats a Green US squad with an exp of 50 in the same way it treats a German or Italian or whatever squad of equivilent experience. Same for veteran and elite.

Of course SP is such a great game that exp and morale, important as they are, are not the only factor. There is also the firepowr question. Here we know for a fact that US squads enjoyed 3 advantages;

1) size (# of men per squad)

2) firepower (M1/BAR's/Thompson SMG's)

3)ample supply**

**not sure how much of this has carried over from SP-1, i know in that game the level of ammunition was listed as a key US advantage

Now, although firepower will make its impact known it can only do so much if the unit in question has low leader and exp levels. If i'm regularily seeing US squads with as much as a 20point defecit in experience outshooting a German squad then yes, i think there might be a problem.

I have seen the US squads that i've controlled getting the hits mentioned on this thread however my results cannot be suspect as many of the squads were well experienced. Alot were also paratroopers with have a good FC rating.

Lets get some hard data. I did a test for the Japanese as i once suspected that they were getting disadvantaged as i was killing even their best troops easily, even with <50
exp US troops. I later learned that it was simply bad AI tactics and once i took control of the Japanese i found they were anything "but" disadvantaged!

[Colonel von Blitz]

Originally posted by Nikademus:

Lets get some hard data. I did a test for the Japanese as i once suspected that they were getting disadvantaged as i was killing even their best troops easily, even with <50
exp US troops. I later learned that it was simply bad AI tactics and once i took control of the Japanese i found they were anything "but" disadvantaged!

I too made a test just a little time ago: I played two PBEM games against my rookie friend, who wanted to learn the game. I myself have been playing PBEM since SP1, so I can call myself a veteran. We agreed of a game in 1944, I was playing as american and my friend was german. Of course the result was predictable, it took less than 10 turns from me to turn his panzer columns into junk and take all Vhexes.
Next we agreed to play a mirrored game, same map. Now I was playing as a german and my friend was playing as american. Now that game was hard...I mean it was very difficult to beat my friend even though he used quite 'rookie' tactics and I got several clean shots at him on several different occasions. But even so, his american forces got way better hit chances almost all the time and they almost annihilated my FJ-troops. Only my experience in SPWAW saved the situation and I managed to capture all Vhexes.

After rhat, I made by myself some other small hotseat games and the conclusion was that when national characteristics is on and troop qualities are at default (XXX), american troops tend to get way better hit chances than any other nation (well, maybe except finnish ski troops, they're real nasty units ;D).

What to do about this? AmmoSgt is talking about people whining about 'balancing the game for axis players'...I do not want to win as axis because the game is too balanced. But one has to ask that is it correct to have quite 'superior' american troops in the game: were american GIs that accurate shooters and was that BAR so good compared to MG42 etc? I remember reading somewhere that 2/3 of american troops landing on the beaches of Normandy were actually green troops and american troops were all green in the beginning of operation Torch...especially the last example here isn't represented in the game in any way.

Do not get me wrong, I really do not want to take away the advantages the americans actually had over axis (like arty, supply etc). I just feel that there should be made some checks before releasing next version of the game.

At the moment this 'superior american problem' has already rendered american troops out of any PBEM games I might play and that is a shame...I'd like to play some western europe theatre games too, where there would be american troops too, but currently it is impossible.

Colonel von Blitz

[johansson]

Is not the whole idea whit the points to create battles where the player whit the best tactic for his / hers troops takes the cake. This is not possible if you are taking factory output in regard if you do there is no idea to play Germany later in the war because they will be always be heavily outnumbered.
So better troops higher prise
(Even if they are US troops ammoSgt)

[Nikademus]

Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz:
I too made a test just a little time ago: I played two PBEM games against my rookie friend, who wanted to learn the game. I myself have been playing PBEM since SP1, so I can call myself a veteran. We agreed of a game in 1944, I was playing as american and my friend was german. Of course the result was predictable, it took less than 10 turns from me to turn his panzer columns into junk and take all Vhexes.
Next we agreed to play a mirrored game, same map. Now I was playing as a german and my friend was playing as american. Now that game was hard...I mean it was very difficult to beat my friend even though he used quite 'rookie' tactics and I got several clean shots at him on several different occasions. But even so, his american forces got way better hit chances almost all the time and they almost annihilated my FJ-troops. Only my experience in SPWAW saved the situation and I managed to capture all Vhexes.


Colonel von Blitz

hmm, you say your friend employed rookie tactics, but what where the average exp levels between the US and German forces?

And did this 'to hit % advantage' manifest itself with the national characteristics turned off?

[MrWhite]

Well, as reading in a fire up Buy units game yeah that proves to be a problem, but then again going back to this whole American Infantry versus German Infantry thing... I put it to teh test and did a simple German Platoon versus American Platoon same Experince level.

Through each diffrent terrain fight and action, I could find the Germans winning every other map, seemingly a draw, now if special forces are involved, that can be diffrent, but if your here tagging along the idea of being historically correct, then your not going to find an army of 80 French SAS in jeeps driving around the country side are you...

Even with the number vaule, I did about a dozen diffrent terrain and objective scenraios, short fire fights to see which group would come out victorious, it's true the Americans have advantages, but it also seemed the germans did so as well.

The standard Green Grunt on both sides used thier weapons efficently, it would seem standard German Inf did well in Defending and in open field combat, close quarters combat was in-effective for the German Green Infantry, if an American Inf group got within that close quarters teh German group was sure to fail. But at range Germans seemed to time in and time out tear apart the Americans.

So After doing a dozen or so test I came to a conclusion that Americans provided for a rather excellent assault force and with vehicle support can crack a German Defense by bringing the troops right into the defenders face where the SMGs and BARs can be used that more effectively. At Range when Germans were defending it would seem that time in and time out with out fast movement the Americans could be cut down with relative ease.

Now after reading what a lot of people have to say about this it seems there is still a consensus to make that American infantry a bit more exspensive to counter act this diffrence. I guess I'ld have to agree for the sake that it will atleast amke it a bit more interesting in some contexts...


Ohh well back to Scenraios..

MrWhite

[Michael Wermelin]

I wonder where the high US exp/mor/lead come from in -44. Someone stated they had 70/70/65 where the germans had 70/70/70. Is that to say that six years of fighting didn't give the germans more upperhand on the US.

Where does the high US values come from? Most of the men landing in Europe in -44 were rookies.

The US has too high ratings. They should be much less experienced, maybe then the game would be balanced again. Drop their exp som 10 points in all stats.

[Colonel von Blitz]

Originally posted by Michael Wermelin:
Where does the high US values come from? Most of the men landing in Europe in -44 were rookies.

The US has too high ratings. They should be much less experienced, maybe then the game would be balanced again. Drop their exp som 10 points in all stats.

That's what I've been wondering, seems to me that US troops have some sort of Hollywood bonus in their ratings. And where those german 65-70 experience ratings in 1944 come from? Even though germans were scraping the bottom of their pool, there were a lot of combat hardened formations in 1944 that were more than a match for US troops.

Nikademus: the fight took place july 1944, so ratings are US 70/70/70 and german 65/70/65. And I used FJ troops as german whose FC and experience ratings are supposed to be higher than regular US infantry.

I made only a few test just this morning whit national characteristics turned off, result was this: in tank vs. tank game tends to favor germans now, which is quite ok, since Panzers weren't cannon fodder and crew training was quite good in quality. In infantry vs. infantry US gets the upper hand, also a thing that doesn't concern me that much. BUT the problem of US getting way higher hit percentages is still there, that is a thing I do not like. MAYBE I'll consider playing axis vs. american PBEM games with characteristics turned off, not sure though...

Colonel von Blitz

[Mike Oshiki]

Just a few footnotes, Ammo.

I think you meant 442d (not 332d) RCT along with the 100th Bn when talking about the "Go for Broke" - a unit composed primarily of Japanese-Americans.

Regarding the STD's, while the Americans did have the invention of pennicillin, in 1943 it would have a rarity factor added to it in game terms.

Mike

[AmmoSgt]

Mike yeap i stand corrected missed the Typo .. as to the penicilin i agree the rarity factor would have to be in play , but only in 43 ..only 28 pounds were made ..in 1945 114,000 pounds were made i can't find the exact figures for 44 but somewhere in between and probably on the higher side than the lower ..it was those poor AWOL GI's in Paris that i was concerned with specifically with the Penicilin so by august maybe not even until september ( i mean how fast can guys go AWOL ) anyway those guys , not having the advantage of a Genneral Staff to round up the locals for them..have to find thier own, and negotiate their own surrenders..
Anyway back to the Infantry .. 1942 Amphibious Assault Guadacanal ..any question these guys were good ..maybe even elite ?? same home towns same basic training ?? same AIT same amphibiuos assault ... Did Normandy as well as Italy ect .. and they can't walk and chew gum ??
Doesn't make sense ...
Paul I know i get accused of generalization but IMHO the US basic Infantry Rifle was superior to the Germans and more plentyful than anything that came close ..we can quibble about the MP44 ..bazzokas for sure.. Arty in genneral was more modern better and all Mech ..no oat bags ...Browning 50 cal what can touch it ?? again not exactly More LOWER quality stuff Halftracks .. even you in pervious posts have trumpeted the quality of the M4A3E8HVSS certainly not a case for more and lower ... Personally i think having turrets on Jagdpanzers would be an up grade like a Jackson or a Wolverine ..and Top the Hellcat can't do it for what it is ...all my opinion and not all the examples that come to mind .. surely one or two that calls the generalization into question
As to the Books The Dupuy is the one with the "Fight for comrade" theme ?? maybe the other one ..it was years ago at any rate .I have read my fair share .. never done any primary research , but have dabbled in the Operational Art .. Granted there is a short list of weapons systems that the Germans had an edge in ..and Granted the germans had many years ..and many casualties of experience .. but the bottom line is I think the fault lies in the general concept that the casualites per unit per hour in the game is a tad high in my opinion ( opinion only) Paul in those 50 battles how many had one side anihilated ( machinegun the crews ) to the last man as so often happens in this game especially against the AI ..
and in 2 hours ( 20-24 turns) ..
If U S Army amphibious trained Divisions fully capable of doing a Normandy Invasion are to be considered green inexperienced troops led by amatures ..then what pray tell would the rating for the defenders be ?