Didn't it say in another main forum post that the patch is being tested right now? So would anyone rather have Mr. Frag test the PT boat problem which was brought up two weeks ago in the main forum, where in the daylight PT boats got Pwned, or have Mr. Frag test the patch that is coming out? I think if people are going to bring up something that they wanted looked at, at less be willing to test another point of view without getting an attitude. Just my .02 cents
P.S. Damien Thorn, if you go look in your profile and then go through your last 100 posts that Mr. Frag has answered your questions so I do not understand your last post.
PT Boat = no fun
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
-
SunDevil_MatrixForum
- Posts: 782
- Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: Tempe, AZ
RE: PT Boat = no fun
There is no chance, no destiny, no fate, that can circumvent or hinder or control the firm resolve of a determined soul.
RE: PT Boat = no fun
As for the big ships not hitting the PT boats, remember this. On the Big Japanese BBs, there secondary guns (5.5 and 6.1" guns) were only in turrets on the Yamatos. The rest were in casemates, and thus had no director control. Thus, hits on fast moving PT boats are not likely. Now on smaller ships (destroyers) hits are more likely, as all guns have director control. Plus, when you factor in movement and maneuvering rates, night time combat, etc, the PT Boats come into their element. And if one gets hit and burns, the others are going to fire on what they can see, not what they can't.
During daylight, however, the PT boats, if not hit, should at least retreat. I don't think any commander of an 80 foot plywood boat is gonna charge in on the guns of a whole Japanese TF in broad daylight.
FWIW, in my own experience as an Allied player, my PT boats aren't that effective. I had a setup of 6 PTs against a lone AP, and only 1 torp hit was scored, and the AP withdrew. And the PTs had expended 90% of all their torps. It would seem to me the results are fairly random, one player has normal PTs, another uber PTs.
Just what I seem to observe.
During daylight, however, the PT boats, if not hit, should at least retreat. I don't think any commander of an 80 foot plywood boat is gonna charge in on the guns of a whole Japanese TF in broad daylight.
FWIW, in my own experience as an Allied player, my PT boats aren't that effective. I had a setup of 6 PTs against a lone AP, and only 1 torp hit was scored, and the AP withdrew. And the PTs had expended 90% of all their torps. It would seem to me the results are fairly random, one player has normal PTs, another uber PTs.
Just what I seem to observe.
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
-
Damien Thorn
- Posts: 1107
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:20 am
RE: PT Boat = no fun
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Jeeze! Who's saying anything ... I'm simply asking someone to post variations of the first posted results so I can spend my time testing other stuff. If you want to cop an attitude ... go find someone else to do all your bloody testing. I've had enough crap from people today.
Sorry. I misunderstood. I thought you were telling him your strategy for a workaround and not taking his concern over the PT boats seriously. I am glad I was mistaken.
-
Wilhammer
- Posts: 401
- Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Out in the Sticks of Rockingham County, North Caro
- Contact:
RE: PT Boat = no fun
I always have thought PT boats should be treated like planes as well - they are operational much the same.
Relativley short ranged, lightweight pleasure craft with guns and torpedoes, about as rugged as say a P-40.
That being the case, one would like to see flotillas of PT boats with operational damage much like aircraft squadrons, and a range limit, like aircraft.
One flaw of PTs in the game, and one could think the code could be made to stop it, is they have unlimited range - if you hop skip them down a chain of rcurring TFs, you could have them sail on their puny hulls from one end of the Pacific to the other.
Which, was not the case, at least for American PTs. Those things came either combat loaded (like a ready aircraft for the Army on a carrier) or boxed (as a crated A/C on an AK).
They are not Ships - they are boats - and they should be modeled much like aircraft for the reasons I offer above.
Perhaps a good fix for them is to subject them to very high operational damage rates, on par to the rates we see on A/C. Make it a worse rate if those things are just bobbing themselves back to port.
Relativley short ranged, lightweight pleasure craft with guns and torpedoes, about as rugged as say a P-40.
That being the case, one would like to see flotillas of PT boats with operational damage much like aircraft squadrons, and a range limit, like aircraft.
One flaw of PTs in the game, and one could think the code could be made to stop it, is they have unlimited range - if you hop skip them down a chain of rcurring TFs, you could have them sail on their puny hulls from one end of the Pacific to the other.
Which, was not the case, at least for American PTs. Those things came either combat loaded (like a ready aircraft for the Army on a carrier) or boxed (as a crated A/C on an AK).
They are not Ships - they are boats - and they should be modeled much like aircraft for the reasons I offer above.
Perhaps a good fix for them is to subject them to very high operational damage rates, on par to the rates we see on A/C. Make it a worse rate if those things are just bobbing themselves back to port.
RE: PT Boat = no fun
ORIGINAL: KHawk
I counted a 162 PT Boats in just this one battle. If memory serves me correctly that’s between 1/3 to 1/2 of all Boats that served in the Pacific. I think the problem is the ability to mass the boats in one location. Maybe there should be a limit for each base or port.
Just My Thoughts,
KHawk
Holy Smokes! [X(][X(][X(][X(]
That's a bit much huh?
"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson
RE: PT Boat = no fun
In my experience, PT can mean "Pretty Traumatizing" to your opponents. I use squadrons of 6 boats and when they connect, they usually get in 1-2 torp hits and a bunch of smaller gun hits. Usually, they also get at least one of their number creamed. Sounds pretty realisitic to me. But I don't target surface combatants with them, only AK's & escort vessels.
They are fast, small and agile and make very difficult targets until they are locked in on their runs. But they can be very difficult launch platforms, which also means that their accuracy sucks.
They are fast, small and agile and make very difficult targets until they are locked in on their runs. But they can be very difficult launch platforms, which also means that their accuracy sucks.
"Things are getting better!
...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
-Old Russian saying
...Well, maybe not as good as they were yesterday, but much better than they will be tomorrow!"
-Old Russian saying
RE: PT Boat = no fun
I have no problem with the result of one encounter with PT Boat TF.
But if a TF at night, even with DD, encounters 4 or 5 PT Boat TF of 5 in a row, and that can be easily done, then it can have surprise half the time and put 1 or 2 torpedo each time on a BB or CA. That will be 4 to 5 torpedo total, enough for the BB or CA to be a easy target in daylight.
Can you do your test with more than one encounter: let them meet three or four TF of PT boat the same night.
To prevent this gamey tactic, i would like to have the attacks after the first one less probable, so player will spread their torpedo boat all over their base and not in one place.
But if a TF at night, even with DD, encounters 4 or 5 PT Boat TF of 5 in a row, and that can be easily done, then it can have surprise half the time and put 1 or 2 torpedo each time on a BB or CA. That will be 4 to 5 torpedo total, enough for the BB or CA to be a easy target in daylight.
Can you do your test with more than one encounter: let them meet three or four TF of PT boat the same night.
To prevent this gamey tactic, i would like to have the attacks after the first one less probable, so player will spread their torpedo boat all over their base and not in one place.
-
Damien Thorn
- Posts: 1107
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:20 am
RE: PT Boat = no fun
There is also the stupid rule that PT boats won't be attacked unless you set your bombers to 100 feet. The problem is that if your bombers go after anything else with that height setting they will get creamed by flak. The manual says that fighter-bombers are exempt from this targeting restriction but that only adds insult to injury since Japan doesn't even have any FB until much later in the game.
I'd like my bombers to target PT boats if there are no other naval targets in the area. Those things are battleship killers and deserve to get targeted like any other threat.
I'd like my bombers to target PT boats if there are no other naval targets in the area. Those things are battleship killers and deserve to get targeted like any other threat.
RE: PT Boat = no fun
The problem is that PT boats should not be able to move away from coastlines. As it is right now, PT boats can sail across the North Pacific and raid shipping in Tokyo Bay, if that is what you want. You should be able to bring them on an invasion like the Marianas, but crated as cargo. Then if you have a base or a PT tender, you can uncrate them and rebuild the squadron.
But this bit where people use them as oceangoing escorts is ahistorical and more than a bit much.
I also agree with the bit about letting all aircraft dive down to hit PT boats, like fighter bombers do. Requiring other aircraft to be set to 100 feet altitude creates big flak losses against anything other than a PT boat.
But this bit where people use them as oceangoing escorts is ahistorical and more than a bit much.
I also agree with the bit about letting all aircraft dive down to hit PT boats, like fighter bombers do. Requiring other aircraft to be set to 100 feet altitude creates big flak losses against anything other than a PT boat.
RE: PT Boat = no fun
ORIGINAL: Goufy
I have no problem with the result of one encounter with PT Boat TF.
But if a TF at night, even with DD, encounters 4 or 5 PT Boat TF of 5 in a row, and that can be easily done, then it can have surprise half the time and put 1 or 2 torpedo each time on a BB or CA. That will be 4 to 5 torpedo total, enough for the BB or CA to be a easy target in daylight.
Here is a night attack with 3 PT boat task forces:
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/20/44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Takao
CA Atago
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-126
PT PT-128
PT PT-129, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-130
PT PT-131, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
PT PT-132
PT PT-133
PT PT-134
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna
CA Tone, Shell hits 1
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 3
CA Takao
CA Atago
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-138, Shell hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-163, Shell hits 29, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-167, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-168
PT PT-169
PT PT-170, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-235, Shell hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-236
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna, Shell hits 2
CA Tone, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Chikuma
CA Takao
CA Atago
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
Allied Ships
PT PT-237
PT PT-238, Shell hits 4, heavy damage
PT PT-248
PT PT-249
PT PT-250, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
PT PT-261, Shell hits 26, heavy damage
PT PT-262
PT PT-263, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
I agree that the PT boats should be attacked by airplanes, even though they are hard to spot. A house rule should take care of the rest IMO.
RE: PT Boat = no fun
As for PT boat range, well an 80 foot boat is pretty seaworthy. You could travel 300 Miles easily, one way and 150 round trip. I try to do it several times a year on fishing trips out of San Diego and the boats are smaller (50Feet). I do beleive that PT's should be limited to max travel of 3 hexs over open ocean, unless in a transport TF. This would simulate thier operational reality for WW2 but still let you ferry them around with a mother ship.
UB
UB
RE: PT Boat = no fun
Interesting Uncle Buck. I grew up in San Diego and my dad had a ex-Navy friend that owned a converted PT boat as a Sport Fisher. We did indeed often go 150 to 180 miles in one day, and back too.
RE: PT Boat = no fun
I mentioned it in another of the PT threads as well, but-for the record:
IJ 25mm and down WON'T fire at PT craft....Now, looking at a DD, for example, that's anywhere form 50% to 250% for the ship's guns that are absent while the main batteries occasionally throw a shell or two.
The PT boats sure don't have that problem, they hit Yamato 10 times with .50 cal shots in one testing-the nerve! hehehe (that was really funny to see, btw)
So...why aren't the gunners engaging a target that's well within range? at 5000-3000m, the 25mm's should be putting up some opposition.
IJ 25mm and down WON'T fire at PT craft....Now, looking at a DD, for example, that's anywhere form 50% to 250% for the ship's guns that are absent while the main batteries occasionally throw a shell or two.
The PT boats sure don't have that problem, they hit Yamato 10 times with .50 cal shots in one testing-the nerve! hehehe (that was really funny to see, btw)
So...why aren't the gunners engaging a target that's well within range? at 5000-3000m, the 25mm's should be putting up some opposition.
RE: PT Boat = no fun
My only reasonign for teh AA guns not firing on PT's woudl be tht they cannot depress themselves far enough. The pt's woudl actually be firing UP at BB's and DD's with there AA guns.
I think 3 or 4 PT's maybe even a group of 6 shoudl be able to make an effective attack on Surface ships wihtout taking to much damage, since they woudl be spread out. However if you start having double digit numbers of PT's attacking, they will be on a relativly smaller front, where the 5 inch will be more devestating. Also I woudl think that fused AA rounds from the DP guns would be devestating to PT's.
I think 3 or 4 PT's maybe even a group of 6 shoudl be able to make an effective attack on Surface ships wihtout taking to much damage, since they woudl be spread out. However if you start having double digit numbers of PT's attacking, they will be on a relativly smaller front, where the 5 inch will be more devestating. Also I woudl think that fused AA rounds from the DP guns would be devestating to PT's.
RE: PT Boat = no fun
ORIGINAL: UncleBuck
My only reasonign for teh AA guns not firing on PT's woudl be tht they cannot depress themselves far enough. The pt's woudl actually be firing UP at BB's and DD's with there AA guns.
In terms of game coding, I think it'd be more of an ON/OFF situation...If they did actually model depression, it wouldn't matter..For a 25mm Type 96, to fire 3000m would actually put it at 15 degrees elevation-So..no problems there...
They just need to give it the green light to fire against PT boats...
And-keep it from even getting as close at 5000m would also be a start..
It looks like PT boats-just by size and type classification, have created their own little loophole in the combat resolution coding, which they're currently exploiting..I'm sure they'll get put back in place...They just have to fix two issues
a)The range they engage at, and-
b)That the targets can't use a good deal of their firepower to defend themselves.
-
Damien Thorn
- Posts: 1107
- Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:20 am
RE: PT Boat = no fun
ORIGINAL: Tenzan
a)The range they engage at, and-
b)That the targets can't use a good deal of their firepower to defend themselves.
and
c) planes can't attack them unless set to the suicidal 100' setting. (Suicidal if the planes happen to go after a real task force at 100').
RE: PT Boat = no fun
ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn
ORIGINAL: Tenzan
a)The range they engage at, and-
b)That the targets can't use a good deal of their firepower to defend themselves.
and
c) planes can't attack them unless set to the suicidal 100' setting. (Suicidal if the planes happen to go after a real task force at 100').
and
d) You can't stack 1,237 of them into Midway [:D]
"Order AP Hill to prepare for battle" -- Stonewall Jackson
RE: PT Boat = no fun
ORIGINAL: Tenzan
IJ 25mm and down WON'T fire at PT craft....
Wrong...
FTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/20/44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
Allied Ships (allies surprised)
PT PT-126, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT PT-128
PT PT-129, Shell hits 2
PT PT-130
PT PT-131, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT PT-132
PT PT-133, Shell hits 1
PT PT-134, Shell hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
Allied Ships (again allies surprised)
PT PT-138, Shell hits 19, and is sunk (multiple 25 mm hits)
PT PT-163
PT PT-167
PT PT-168, Shell hits 26, and is sunk (multiple 25 mm hits)
PT PT-169, Shell hits 22, and is sunk (multiple 25 mm hits)
PT PT-170
PT PT-235
PT PT-236
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
DD Akitsuki, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
Allied Ships (allies not surprised)
PT PT-237
PT PT-238
PT PT-248
PT PT-249
PT PT-250, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
PT PT-261
PT PT-262
PT PT-263
RE: PT Boat = no fun
Edit-
Ahh haa! I followed your example and found out why my 25mm's weren't firing-They open fire at 2000m-With a mixed task force, I haven't seen this happen yet, but, as you did with creating a DD task force, they DID close after an opening round at the usual 3000m, and in round 2, at the closed range of 2000, the 25mm's did come into play-
Now-Have you ever seen this happen in a Mixed ship TF? I know I haven't...
Ahh haa! I followed your example and found out why my 25mm's weren't firing-They open fire at 2000m-With a mixed task force, I haven't seen this happen yet, but, as you did with creating a DD task force, they DID close after an opening round at the usual 3000m, and in round 2, at the closed range of 2000, the 25mm's did come into play-
Now-Have you ever seen this happen in a Mixed ship TF? I know I haven't...
RE: PT Boat = no fun
I just ran the same setup as before: All allied TFs was surprised.
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/20/44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Takao
CA Atago
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
Allied Ships (there was one 8" hit and others 3.9")
PT PT-126
PT PT-128
PT PT-129, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-130
PT PT-131
PT PT-132
PT PT-133
PT PT-134, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Takao
CA Atago
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
Allied Ships (again a 8" hit and a some 6"? hits others 3.9")
PT PT-138
PT PT-163, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-167, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
PT PT-168, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-169
PT PT-170, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
PT PT-235, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-236
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Takao
CA Atago
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
Allied Ships (here they got close enough i guess)
PT PT-237
PT PT-238, Shell hits 20, and is sunk (Multiple 25mm hits from BB Haruna!)
PT PT-248, Shell hits 1, and is sunk (14" from Kongo... Just a big hole left)
PT PT-249, Shell hits 18, and is sunk (Mostly 3.9")
PT PT-250
PT PT-261
PT PT-262, Shell hits 12, and is sunk (Mostly 3.9")
PT PT-263, Shell hits 17, and is sunk (Mostly 3.9")
So yes mixed TF do fire their AA guns if the PT boats get close enough.
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/20/44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Takao
CA Atago
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
Allied Ships (there was one 8" hit and others 3.9")
PT PT-126
PT PT-128
PT PT-129, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-130
PT PT-131
PT PT-132
PT PT-133
PT PT-134, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Takao
CA Atago
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
Allied Ships (again a 8" hit and a some 6"? hits others 3.9")
PT PT-138
PT PT-163, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-167, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
PT PT-168, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
PT PT-169
PT PT-170, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
PT PT-235, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-236
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Guam at 62,66
Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Haruna
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Takao
CA Atago
DD Akitsuki
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Wakazuki
DD Shimotsuki
DD Tamanami
DD Fujinami
Allied Ships (here they got close enough i guess)
PT PT-237
PT PT-238, Shell hits 20, and is sunk (Multiple 25mm hits from BB Haruna!)
PT PT-248, Shell hits 1, and is sunk (14" from Kongo... Just a big hole left)
PT PT-249, Shell hits 18, and is sunk (Mostly 3.9")
PT PT-250
PT PT-261
PT PT-262, Shell hits 12, and is sunk (Mostly 3.9")
PT PT-263, Shell hits 17, and is sunk (Mostly 3.9")
So yes mixed TF do fire their AA guns if the PT boats get close enough.