CD fee?!?!

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Error in 0
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Error in 0 »

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain
ORIGINAL: JallaTryne
ORIGINAL: PeckingFury

Well just name a game that will last you the next 5 to ten years??

Just one [;)]? Civilization. System shock 2. Any decent chess game. Im sure a couple others as well...

Will WitP last 5 to 10 year? I dont know, because I really dont know for sure what kind oof game it is. Maybe it will last 5 hours. You see, the PRICE is not the reason a game lasts..[:D]


WITP is based on the DOS version of Pacific war which still is played despite it being a DOS game and old graphics... oh and in a sense the FREE Pacific War game is a sort of demo for their Windows remake...

Just the windows game has alot more to it but it is based on the old game..

So I'd say given how long the DOS versions been played that Yup, WITP will be played 5-15 years.

Well, my point was that that may be correct to anyone who likes the game. Maybe no everyone will like it, despite it is made by the most hardcore professional wargame simulation folks in the world [;)]
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Hexed Gamer »

There have been some interesting comments made in recent posts.

Implying a person can get a game "free" by "downloading" it, walks a dangerous topic area actually.

But the comment about playing a game for 5 years does not imply the game will require 5 years to play it once, but likely implies in 5 years you will still be enjoying the purchase you made 5 years ago.

Ask yourself more correctly, how many games that you bought 5 years ago, do you still give a hoot for?
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Error in 0 »

ORIGINAL: Hexed Gamer

Implying a person can get a game "free" by "downloading" it, walks a dangerous topic area actually.
What do you mean? Is it not free? Do I advise people to break the law and do this? Do you think hordes of gamers out there is shocked by the revelation of cracks, and rush to the internet? What is your point?
But the comment about playing a game for 5 years does not imply the game will require 5 years to play it once, but likely implies in 5 years you will still be enjoying the purchase you made 5 years ago.
Really [;)] ?

Ask yourself more correctly, how many games that you bought 5 years ago, do you still give a hoot for?
Instead: ask yourself why you dont read my post.
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Hexed Gamer »

I could be wrong.

This comment...

"How many of these people who want the game, but dont want to spend 79$ on it end up downloading it from the net for 0$? It took me 1 minute to find 2 Matrix titles on the net. It is even more tempting because you dont get less than you get from a Matrix DD (no manual or CD)."

Simply sounded like an off handed way of remarking how commercially sold games can be "located" online being offered "free" when in fact they were not free.

It is remarks like that, which tend to get a person in dangerous waters was all I was claiming.
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by PeckingFury »

You pay the price, you download the software and enjoy or not. Its the way matrix wants to do business, some may not like it others wont mind. Not getting a cd free makes no difference to me, my opinion ofcourse. There arent too many companies out there that make great wargames, matrix is no ID software or Blizzard or Sony. A small company like matrix needs to keep a closer eye on waste. I prefer digital download more convenient for me, and in the end thats what it comes down to, what I like.
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by ravinhood »

What you in essense say is that whatever price a company set, is the correct price. And if someone disagree, they are cheap? Stupid? What makes you KNOW that 69$ are the best price? And 10$ for a CD is a fair price? When you see a subcompact (whatever that is) to the price of a hummer, dont dare question it, just 'get over it'.

I have to agree with Jalla on this one, buying a vehicle vs buying a "game" for mere entertainment is a major different issue.

I personally think the price of the game without a CD and manual is rather expensive as well. But, I don't care for monster games anyway, so, it doesn't affect me either way. But, I think in all fairness to those that do enjoy monster games, they have every right to complain about pricing and inclusions of articles like CD's and maunals. It's what makes "competition" out there, if someone else comes along and provides near the same game for $59 with a cd and a manual (and in a retail outlet), who do you think we are likely to purchase it from? ;)

I won't be purchasing many of Matrixs games because of this direct sale for download only, cd $10 extra, because I don't like that type of purchasing. I have dialup and I'm not going to sit for days downloading a game that they could just as easily box up and market it on the shelves of Best Buy, Ebgames and other software outlets which I frequent regularly.

And yep I'll miss out on a lot of games. Oh well. It's probably a major reason wargaming is dying as it is, too many wargame developers have pulled out of the retail market and not enough NEW people can know about their games, because they restrict everything to direct sales. What about wargamers that don't even own an internet connection? Look at the masses they are losing just by making them online download from this aspect. HPS, Shrapnel, and now Matrix all pulling out of the retail avenue of sales (or never were involved, I can't remember the last HPS or Shrapnel game I saw on a retail shelf), not good for computer wargaming, not good at all.

I've been wargaming for 35 years, and it wasn't until like 2002 that I even heard about Wargamer.com. So look at all those years I never even knew about HPS, Shrapnel or Matrix. All I ever knew was what I saw in a "retail" outlet. That's where I went, it's still where I go to buy most games, but, I will use ebay now also to buy games, since downloading is out of the question. At least HPS and Sharpnel offer the complete games in a box, though HPS has gone to this PDF file type of manual instructions. I just don't like that at all, thus have only bought one HPS game to date. I'm thinking about Gettysburg (their new one), thinking thinking thinking, maybe if I wait awhile it will be on ebay. hehe
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I've been wargaming for 35 years, and it wasn't until like 2002 that I even heard about Wargamer.com. So look at all those years I never even knew about HPS, Shrapnel or Matrix. All I ever knew was what I saw in a "retail" outlet. That's where I went, it's still where I go to buy most games, but, I will use ebay now also to buy games, since downloading is out of the question. At least HPS and Sharpnel offer the complete games in a box, though HPS has gone to this PDF file type of manual instructions. I just don't like that at all, thus have only bought one HPS game to date. I'm thinking about Gettysburg (their new one), thinking thinking thinking, maybe if I wait awhile it will be on ebay. hehe

I may be wrong, but aren't WitP and Sharshatter going to get box releases this month ? Sure, that's by mail and not in stores, but again that's a commercial decision - would distribution to retail outlets generate enough additional sales to cover the costs ? Remember for each copy sold Matrix would receive far less than on those they sell directly. As far as I'm aware the Combat Mission series never had a store release in the US (they did in Europe), and it didn't seem to do Battlefront any harm.

On downloads (the illegal kind), they will happen whether this gets talked about or not. There are some things Matrix, and every other publisher, can do such as registration codes and restricted access to patches but losing some sales to downloads is inevitable, just like music CDs. Matrix are lucky to a large extent in that the nature of the games and their customers will minimise the problem - Doom 3 is likely to have as many downloaders as purchasers.

Personally I'm a huge fan of the (legal) download route, although there should certainly be box releases as well - as you say not everybody has broadband or indeed internet access at all. All of the big wargame publishers are in the States, and it's great to buy on release without worrying about shipping costs, long delays for a UK release, and different versions (sanitisation in the case of CMBtB, seperate and delayed patches for most everything else). If HPS had had a download option - God only knows why they don't - I'd have bought a lot more of their stuff over the last couple of years.
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by ravinhood »

As far as I'm aware the Combat Mission series never had a store release in the US (they did in Europe), and it didn't seem to do Battlefront any harm.

Yep, got both Combat Mission and Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin both in retail outlets here, even had a bundled set they sold with both included. Haven't seen Combat Mission Africa Korp yet, but, I have no doubts it will make it to the retail market like the others soon enough.

Oh and that's another thing about computer games these days, patches, without an internet connection how does one obtain a "free" fix to a broken game, that they can't return for a refund to software outlets? Even when I buy a book (media), I can return it for another book or a "full refund" if pages are missing (faulty/buggy software)

When you think about it, some of us have to spend $120 (dialup) and for those with cable $360 a year, for what? Patches? Email? Piddling in forums? Downloading games we have to pay a "premium" price for as well as the internet connection?? Think about the whole picture here, it's costing us a lot of money to maintain our hobby, that was not always there back in the 80's. You could call up a software developer or publisher and they would send you "free" patch disks in the mail. You also could "return" faulty software for a "full refund". Things sure have changed and the costs are coming more out of our pockets. You could even call them up on the phone 1-800 numbers and they would give you technical help with getting the game to work on your system.

If I could get free patches in the mail, and be able to buy all games through a retailer with the ability for a refund, I'd have no need for the internet. It's just another nicety, it shouldn't be a necessity for getting patches and fixes for games.

And don't think we that pay these "premium" prices for games aren't paying for those that pirate games as well. That's what really burns me up the most. We who are honest just have to keep paying and paying and paying more and getting more and more faulty and buggy software games for our efforts, thus having to maintain internet connections for some, just for a mere patch or in Paradox's case umteenjillion.

Software developers/Publishers philosophy: Oh nevermind the pirates, we'll just charge the honest people more. Cost them more money to hire private dectectives and lawyers and of course bad publicity in the long run to go after pirates. Sure is unfair to those of us who support their work I think.
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by 2ndACR »

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne
ORIGINAL: PeckingFury

Well just name a game that will last you the next 5 to ten years??

Just one [;)]? Civilization. System shock 2. Any decent chess game. Im sure a couple others as well...

Will WitP last 5 to 10 year? I dont know, because I really dont know for sure what kind oof game it is. Maybe it will last 5 hours. You see, the PRICE is not the reason a game lasts..[:D]

5 hours? If you bought the game, it would take you 5 hours just to browse the map and see where everything is. Not to mention just looking at the numbers of ground forces, ship, air units the allies get as reinforcments.

Shoot, this game is worth 3X as much as they are charging. I also have dialup. I paid and waited the 11 days for the backup disc. Of course the Patch was a bear. I do not forsee purchasing another wargame for at least 10 years. Unless Matrix/2by3 release WIR2. (hint)

Most people pay 49.99 at the store for a first person shooter that they beat on the hardest level in a month. And then they can always beat it. I could load up Ghost Recon right now and go thru the first 4 missions without losing a man. Not to mention the add ons at 19.99 a pop. Twice. Beat them and removed them.

Since I have dial up at 56k I am not keen on digital download of games. Patches I can handle if they are less than 10mb. But with high speed internet fairly common now adays it makes sense. I will pay the 10 dollars for the disc. Manuals (I do not use them) are a waste of space for me. I am a jump right in and figure it out sort. Box (lasts until I open the game, then its trash).
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

And don't think we that pay these "premium" prices for games aren't paying for those that pirate games as well. That's what really burns me up the most. We who are honest just have to keep paying and paying and paying more and getting more and more faulty and buggy software games for our efforts, thus having to maintain internet connections for some, just for a mere patch or in Paradox's case umteenjillion.

Software developers/Publishers philosophy: Oh nevermind the pirates, we'll just charge the honest people more. Cost them more money to hire private dectectives and lawyers and of course bad publicity in the long run to go after pirates. Sure is unfair to those of us who support their work I think.


Of course prices will take account of that, and yes it is unfair on those of us who stump up hard earned cash. Like many things that are unfair though, there isn't much that can be done about it. You can hit those who counterfeit CDs, and they (especially the music industry) do, but most piracy is done via peer-to-peer networks linking home PCs. Millions of people are equally culpable, the great majority of whom are kids it would be pointless to sue in any civil action even if you traced them. Those who write the necessary software have learned from the Napster experience how to keep it legal... and peer-to-peer does indeed have perfectly legitimate uses, albeit for a timy minority of users.

If you think about it, raising prices to compensate is not a solution - higher prices means more piracy. Indeed, across the board I've seen no evidence of that happening - in the UK the price of PC games hasn't changed in three years, and with at least one major retail outlet cutting £5 of everybody else's prices and some really cheap net-shopping options (like play.com, which is almost half-price on big releases) games are cheaper than ever before. A couple of attempts were made to push the price up by a fiver (I seem to recall Neverwinter Nights, and a couple of M$ releases), but a great many voted against that with their wallets.

I don't disagree with your sentiments at all, but I do think that what both music and games publishers can do to combat piracy, they have done.
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Error in 0 »

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
ORIGINAL: JallaTryne
ORIGINAL: PeckingFury

Well just name a game that will last you the next 5 to ten years??

Just one [;)]? Civilization. System shock 2. Any decent chess game. Im sure a couple others as well...

Will WitP last 5 to 10 year? I dont know, because I really dont know for sure what kind oof game it is. Maybe it will last 5 hours. You see, the PRICE is not the reason a game lasts..[:D]

5 hours? If you bought the game, it would take you 5 hours just to browse the map and see where everything is. Not to mention just looking at the numbers of ground forces, ship, air units the allies get as reinforcments.

Shoot, this game is worth 3X as much as they are charging. I also have dialup. I paid and waited the 11 days for the backup disc. Of course the Patch was a bear. I do not forsee purchasing another wargame for at least 10 years. Unless Matrix/2by3 release WIR2. (hint)

Most people pay 49.99 at the store for a first person shooter that they beat on the hardest level in a month. And then they can always beat it. I could load up Ghost Recon right now and go thru the first 4 missions without losing a man. Not to mention the add ons at 19.99 a pop. Twice. Beat them and removed them.

Since I have dial up at 56k I am not keen on digital download of games. Patches I can handle if they are less than 10mb. But with high speed internet fairly common now adays it makes sense. I will pay the 10 dollars for the disc. Manuals (I do not use them) are a waste of space for me. I am a jump right in and figure it out sort. Box (lasts until I open the game, then its trash).


I sure hope the game dont lasts 5 h, but saying it is worth 3x the price is just.... well, I feel that critisizing Matrix is to some of u guys like messing with your heros [:D]. What games you spend money on and like playing is each and everyones choise, and someone migth find added depth to Ghost Recon the second time around.

Yeah, you dont use manuals. No wonder you spend 10 years playing it [;)]
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Hertston »

Ghost Recon was always at it's best as a multiplayer game anyway... a superb ladder game. Just a shame more people didn't play it that way.
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Golf33 »

ORIGINAL: Hertston

If you think about it, raising prices to compensate is not a solution - higher prices means more piracy. Indeed, across the board I've seen no evidence of that happening - in the UK the price of PC games hasn't changed in three years, and with at least one major retail outlet cutting £5 of everybody else's prices and some really cheap net-shopping options (like play.com, which is almost half-price on big releases) games are cheaper than ever before. A couple of attempts were made to push the price up by a fiver (I seem to recall Neverwinter Nights, and a couple of M$ releases), but a great many voted against that with their wallets.

Wonder why there aren't as many good, innovative, and stable games coming out these days? Do you think maybe the increasing complexity of games, combined with increased expectations on the part of gamers, and multiplied by the drop in price you describe above for computer games, might have something to do with it?

It's up to you what price you consider reasonable for a game. That's an individual decision that everyone has to make, balancing the enjoyment you get from gaming against other expenses and the necessities of life. On the other side of the fence, I think the prices you are seeing from Matrix aren't aimed at 'increasing the profit' - they are more aimed at 'enabling the developers to just survive'. Simply put, if enough people aren't prepared to pay enough for our games to cover the cost of their development, we'll have to go and do other jobs where we can make more money with less work.

The games that sell in enough volume to cover the cost of development are the mass-market console and FPS games, The Sims, and a few (very few) of the more mainstream wargames. These games can afford to go for cheap, making very little per copy for the developers, because the volume that gets sold will cover the cost of development. A product like an innovative wargame, that will sell to a niche of a niche market, has to cover its development in far fewer sales which means the margin per copy has to be higher. There aren't a lot of costs to be cut, either; shortening the development cycle leads to all sorts of problems, like the 'umptillion patches' mentioned above.

Just food for thought.

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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Hexed Gamer »

Yep, if tomorrow I put on sale a game of global grand strategy for the Pacific, and gave it a serious type name like Warfare in the Pacific Theatre (just to illustrate), and I priced it at 30 bucks (and made the store agree to leave it that price for a minimum 6 months), and I had it in stock (ie minimum stock of 5 articles on the shelf required)in every Walmart and Toys R Us while also simultaenously releasing it as a digital download (for 25 bucks not 30) as well as making the full game available for purchase through the mail (exact same item as on shelf). And if I had that same item pre stocked ina European location as well as key cities in say Canada and Australia.

It might well make a major big time splash.
And when you consider, that 5 items in several hundred Walmarts and Toys R Us outlets means quite a large sum of established actual sales (and no, I would not be indulging in any return concept, buy it and keep it).
Add to that, some reasonable online sales, and some reasonable digital download sales, and you might even move out the door a nice volume.

And if the game was total garbage, you likely could then close up shop and accept no one would ever be dumb enough to buy your next game.

Marketing does a lot to sell a product.
I would not release a demo 6 months before game day, I would release a demo (if even possible) on opening day maybe. I would make it on sale everywhere the SAME day.

A fancy colour manual plus a fancy coolourful illustrated box means printers of course and packaging expenses.
Just because a person can design software, doesn't mean they can automatically afford the cost to print a manual or the expense of a fancy box.

Companies like Hasbro, they make dozens of titles and they make thousands and thousands of each title and they have them in stock in hundreds of hundreds of stores.
The cost of a manual is nothing to them.

Matrix Games is not Hasbro I have noticed.
Nor are any of the other wargame makes like Hasbro.

When you walk into Walmart or Toys R Us, if you are like me, you DON'T expect to see wargames stocked like parlour games though.
Why is that?
I can only assume it's a matter of choice somewhere.

I never see Monopoly advertised on tv. I never see it advertised in magazines. Yet you see it stacked on shelves dozens of copies deep.
Why is that?

I never see Monopoly advertised online either. Nor any other Monopoly type game.

It is not the price tag that is the key, it is market awareness.
Market awareness is not free though.

There is risk involved in some things. I guess it is a case of how much risk is to much risk.

I make furniture (or did), and I am sure, if I had made 10,000 tables all at a decent price, and then sold them all off to places like Sears, I could make a nice profit.
But, 10,000 tables worth of wood is a lot of wood.
Say I make the tables, and then just let them sit in the warehouse and hope word of mouth gets them sold.
Odds are when the bill arrives I become quite bankrupt.
Say I make a bad idea of a table, and then try to sell it to Sears, who then says sorry not interersted.
Bankrupt again.
The key, is to make sure you are making what the market wants, then make enough to make it worth it, then sell enough to pay off the cost to make it.
Otherwise, you go bankrupt.

I see businesses fold up and die all the time.
Commonsense was not part of the course when I was learning business eh.
It seems that life expects you to already know that part.

It really does not matter in the end what "I" want where my hobby is concerned, as it is not my money at risk.
Sure I can buy a game, and it might suck, so I am out a few bucks.
The next day, life goes on, and I am not bankrupt because I bought a poorly done game.

If company A goes a does a lame job of making a wargame, it won't prevent company B from trying the same game later.
And no matter how crummy wargame company A's game was, it won't kill off the hobby or rin the interest in the subject.
It will just ensure, that people talk about company A, and how lousy their game was.

Who loses when a company makes a lousy game? Just the company.

I fully expect to buy the occasional lousy wargame in my life. It is just inevitable.
I also expect to have no trouble telling people that company A made game X, and it proved that company A didn't have clue one how to be a successful business.

Nor is there any one secret to success.
But failing is not complicated.

I buy almost all my games on impulse. I am in demographic terms an impulse buyer. I am the reason store aisles are designed the way they are. I am the reason thosusands of dollars is spent each year on careful surveys.
It is just my nature.

I know people that have no trouble buying stuff online. I just don't inherently take to it.
I am not saying buying online is bad wrong or the poor choice. It is just not an efective way to sell to me.
If 9 out of 10 of your customers are guys like me though, no argument in favour of online sales is likely to mean much. Especially if we refuse to change.

If 9 out of 10 of your market wants something a specific way, then doing it that way is the cost of being in the market.
Thus, the cost being a burden falls under the heading of "to bad".

I had planned to sell my tables at a massive reduction in proce (simply because I could). But, I learned while going through the business course, that the buyer instinctively expects an item to cost a certain dollar sum.
Priced to low, the customer suspects something is wrong.
The moment the customer thinks something is wrong, they lose faith in the item having the same worth as an equal item priced at the assumed "proper" price.
So, it doesn't always matter what company A wants where price is concerned. Because your customer might need reason to feel otherwise.

Thus, selling a wargame at 20 bucks is potentially no better than 80 bucks. At 20 the buyer might think it is just junk being unloaded. At 80 the customer might think it is not worth that much.

Sometimes the opinion of the business is not relevant. Might seem oddly unfair, but who said business was supposed to be fair?

They don't call it competition for nothing. In business you have winners and losers.

I would not feel bad if tomorrow I sold 50 thousand units of my game at 30 bucks (my notional Pacific game), and totally crushed sales of War in the Pacific.
Business is business.
If my game was hohum, it would just mean, people might fail to line up for the next one.
Maybe I take the money from the 50,000 units sold at 30 bucks and quit after that though.
There is nothing saying I have to ever again sell another wargame.

It is the selling the next game that is tricky.

I could make dozens of suggestions to Matrix Games, about how to build a better game, sold more effectively, in larger amounts, in more methods with greater sums of locations.
Some might even be good ideas.

At the end of the day though, it's not my neck at risk.

Advice is free, making wargames isn't.

That's why this entire post is only a free opinion, and 5 seconds after I post it, I will not have sustained any risk.

My hat is off to Matrix Games for being there and taking the risk. It is indeed a risk just being online and doing what they do.

5 years from now, Matrix Games might be an industry leader, or just another name discussed as having once made some cool games, and is now gone.

It's David's head ache though :)
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Hexed Gamer »

For the record.

I bought HTTR.

It was so well made, it has established the company's name as one I know longer worry over.

Thus they mastered the fine art of the repeat sale.

Paradox (regardless of what YOU might think of their games), has for me established a lack of trust (through many means), and thus, they have ensured, that I don't really care WHAT they make, I won't knowingly buy their games.

Thus, they have mastered the fine art of negative publicity.

I fully intend to buy Strategic Command 2 when it is released, based partly on the satisfaction of the first, but on how well Hubert Cater has ensured it will be all the wargaming community has asked it to be.

He has so completely aced his customer satisfaction level.
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by 2ndACR »

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne
ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
ORIGINAL: JallaTryne



Just one [;)]? Civilization. System shock 2. Any decent chess game. Im sure a couple others as well...

Will WitP last 5 to 10 year? I dont know, because I really dont know for sure what kind oof game it is. Maybe it will last 5 hours. You see, the PRICE is not the reason a game lasts..[:D]

5 hours? If you bought the game, it would take you 5 hours just to browse the map and see where everything is. Not to mention just looking at the numbers of ground forces, ship, air units the allies get as reinforcments.

Shoot, this game is worth 3X as much as they are charging. I also have dialup. I paid and waited the 11 days for the backup disc. Of course the Patch was a bear. I do not forsee purchasing another wargame for at least 10 years. Unless Matrix/2by3 release WIR2. (hint)

Most people pay 49.99 at the store for a first person shooter that they beat on the hardest level in a month. And then they can always beat it. I could load up Ghost Recon right now and go thru the first 4 missions without losing a man. Not to mention the add ons at 19.99 a pop. Twice. Beat them and removed them.

Since I have dial up at 56k I am not keen on digital download of games. Patches I can handle if they are less than 10mb. But with high speed internet fairly common now adays it makes sense. I will pay the 10 dollars for the disc. Manuals (I do not use them) are a waste of space for me. I am a jump right in and figure it out sort. Box (lasts until I open the game, then its trash).


I sure hope the game dont lasts 5 h, but saying it is worth 3x the price is just.... well, I feel that critisizing Matrix is to some of u guys like messing with your heros [:D]. What games you spend money on and like playing is each and everyones choise, and someone migth find added depth to Ghost Recon the second time around.

Yeah, you dont use manuals. No wonder you spend 10 years playing it [;)]

Since I payed 70.00 for Pacwar years ago and 49.99 for most games now a days the 80.00 for WITP is trivial. For the scale and depth it gives yes it is worth 200.00.

Go to the movies lately? $9.00 just to get in the door, 3.00 for a coke, 3.00 for a popcorn.
You just spent 15.00 for 2 hours of entertainment. I have already logged about 250 hours playing with WITP. But since I am the boss of my company, I can play during the day if we are slow. And that 250 hours has yet to make it past March 1942.

Yes, with WITP, I have yet to look over the manual. But I have a good understanding of the way GG sets up his games. I have owned them all. BTR is still on my hard drive to this day. Played UV to death. WITP is basically the same. Been following the forum since it started. Most of my questions have already been asked and answered by others. You just have to do some searching. I figure a PBEM of the entire campaign will take about 2 years to complete. Or at one turn a day the length of the real war. But since I play almost strictly "heavy" wargames BTR, PacWar, UV, WITP, WIR etc I enjoy the harder, more complicated games. I enjoy learning from my mistakes that i make during the game.

But you can choose to buy it or not. That is your right.
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dinsdale
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by dinsdale »

Dear God, I agree with Ravinhood [X(]
ORIGINAL: Hertston
Of course prices will take account of that, and yes it is unfair on those of us who stump up hard earned cash. Like many things that are unfair though, there isn't much that can be done about it.
Actually there's one very potent weapon in a consumer's arsenal: not paying the premium price for a game. There's no doubt that piracy is a factor in the industry, but is it a factor to the extent which organizations such as BSA would like us to believe? Well, they try and count every pirated piece of software as a lost sale. When a lobbiest makes such a wildly presumptious and inaccurate accounting such as that, it renders any estimates they create worthless.

If the software industry's answer is to charge an honest consumer such as myself more money, then it's money they won't see any more. It no longer takes very long for either ebay or bargain bin prices to dramatically lower the cost. In fact, given that most software "needs" patching, it's often the case of getting a game for $5-$10 before it's ready to play anyway.

I probably fall into a minority of jaded game buyers, but after averaging about a game a month last year, I've bought a grand total of two this year. There are probably only two more that I'm interested in buying before the year is out, but I will not be buying until patched, and lower in price.
If you think about it, raising prices to compensate is not a solution - higher prices means more piracy. Indeed, across the board I've seen no evidence of that happening - in the UK the price of PC games hasn't changed in three years, and with at least one major retail outlet cutting £5 of everybody else's prices and some really cheap net-shopping options (like play.com, which is almost half-price on big releases) games are cheaper than ever before. A couple of attempts were made to push the price up by a fiver (I seem to recall Neverwinter Nights, and a couple of M$ releases), but a great many voted against that with their wallets.
Games are cheaper from stores for one reason only: competition. Buying from cheaper online outlets has forced brick&mortar stores to lower their prices. There's even a new $20 price point for some games. None of this is due to the benign greatness of publishers or retailers, it's what they have to do to sell units.
I don't disagree with your sentiments at all, but I do think that what both music and games publishers can do to combat piracy, they have done.
If banks were losing billions of dollars to banditry and passing the cost on to you and I, would you be so generous?
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Hertston
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: Golf33

Wonder why there aren't as many good, innovative, and stable games coming out these days? Do you think maybe the increasing complexity of games, combined with increased expectations on the part of gamers, and multiplied by the drop in price you describe above for computer games, might have something to do with it?

There has been no "drop in price". play.com go for the ultimate in high volume/low profit sales, while Virgin frequently discount DVDs, CDs and everything else they sell to poach business from others. The market in PC games is no different from the market in anything else.

As to increasing complexity, I agree. As the costs of developing what gamers expect increases, it must have an impact as the big publishers go for what they know will sell. Hopefully, though, there will always be an enthusiasts market for certain products squeezed out of the mainstream, and those enthusiasts will be prepared to pay more. It's just like cars... compare the number of major manufacturers now with the number fifty years ago. You can still buy the unusual or exotic, but you have to pay an awful lot for it. With games, as with cars, I have no problem with that but my money will only go so far.

On the other side of the fence, I think the prices you are seeing from Matrix aren't aimed at 'increasing the profit' - they are more aimed at 'enabling the developers to just survive'. Simply put, if enough people aren't prepared to pay enough for our games to cover the cost of their development, we'll have to go and do other jobs where we can make more money with less work.

I didn't say "increasing the profit", I said "the biggest profit". It amounts to the same thing. "Profit" is not a dirty word and maximising the return on each unit, balanced against number of units sold, is what business is about. The first priority is to survive, the second to deliver as large a return to stakeholders as you can. The only difference is where you start, and where it's possible to end up. I know you took a huge risk in joining Panther, and that it certainly wasn't for the money - but surely you would rather be a rich developer than a poor one ? [;)]

I fully accept that games like WitP may have to be priced higher than those found in a store. Of the last five Matrix releases, WitP is the only one I havn't bought. In this particular instance though, it just crossed the line for me - I have only so much money and so much time. To go back to my previous analogy, I can't afford that Ferrari either [:D]


ORIGINAL: dinsdale

If banks were losing billions of dollars to banditry and passing the cost on to you and I, would you be so generous?

Hehe.. probably not. I still can't see any evidence that piracy is being absorbed by increasing price, though. And what exactly can the industry do that it hasn't done already ?
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Hexed Gamer
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Hexed Gamer »

The only way to avoid people "acquiring" the game elsewhere, is to just get the game into their hands efficiently.

Case in point, MMP is struggling to get ASL into the hands of fanatic fans.

MMP is a small operation though, and has a small operations cash power as a result.

This creates as a secondary result, people resorting to getting ASL on eBay and often for amounts that make you think my fellow ASLers are friggin loonie.

But the WANT the game that much.

Several decades later, and ASL is NOT a bargain bin game. It costs SERIOUS money to buy it, and it is a frequent item on sale on eBay even though it "should" be on sale through MMP.

If the game sucks, it will drop in price. If the game doesn't suck, you won't have a problem.
If you market the game poorly, you will have lame sales.
It has nothing to do with the game's actual worth.

Today, Steel Panthers is still to me at least worth the same price it was when it was first sold. Much modified, much tweaked, but it is being given away. That is not my fault though nor decision. Someone decided to walk away from selling it somehow.

Panzer General has in my view retained it's worth.

The fact you can download it for free was not my doing.

10 years from now, I will still say Strategic Command is worth full price, and I would gladly pay full price for my TOAW CoW game and my HTTR game.
Advances in computer tech opening up new oppportunities don't alter the fact, the game has not lost it's value.

Games end up in the bargain I think more because they stop getting properly supported.

Maybe the softwae industry needs to give it's head a shake.

I am not responsible for the state of software sales.
1 game a year or 20, it doesn't matter.
I might only buy one this year.
I am choosy though.
Got nothing to do with how much dinner out cost me or the price of a movie.
You can't sell me wargames I don't want eh.
And you can't sell them if you don't sell them effectively either.
There is only one Hexed Gamer
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Golf33
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RE: CD fee?!?!

Post by Golf33 »

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I know you took a huge risk in joining Panther, and that it certainly wasn't for the money - but surely you would rather be a rich developer than a poor one ? [;)]
Hey, I'm happy to be a poor developer, I just don't want to become an unemployed developer!
I fully accept that games like WitP may have to be priced higher than those found in a store. Of the last five Matrix releases, WitP is the only one I havn't bought. In this particular instance though, it just crossed the line for me - I have only so much money and so much time. To go back to my previous analogy, I can't afford that Ferrari either [:D]
LOL me either [;)]. As you know, whenever you set the price on an item, you accept that not everyone will be happy (or able) to pay that much. This is as true for bargain-bin items as it is for a top-notch product like WITP or COTA.
Hehe.. probably not. I still can't see any evidence that piracy is being absorbed by increasing price, though. And what exactly can the industry do that it hasn't done already ?
This seems true from my POV (note that I am not in the business line of things, so this isn't gospel by any means and is totally unofficial). The main factors that seem to determine pricing are what comparable products are selling for, what income is required to cover development cost, and how many units are likely to be sold[1]. As far as I can see, piracy is something of a given and I doubt anyone factors it in specifically when setting price - if it's considered, I think it would be as a factor influencing the number of copies likely to be sold, rather than as a cost item with a negative dollar value attached.

Regards
33

[1] I'm not dead sure of this one, it's possible that the price is set by the other two factors and the need to then sell a number of copies is just a factor in the developers' hair going white. It is also probably different between different publishers and different developers.
Steve Golf33 Long
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