Matrix Aircraft Upgrades

[Brausepaul]

If Japan has no chance of winning the war...why play at all!?[&:]Japan definatly should have the possibility to win the war (but not with production only, production might help them in winning <or loosing>).

[Mike Scholl]

Dbeves. Couldn't agree with you more. The entire "production interface" is Kludge
to the max. It works as if the designers had never heard of a spreadsheet and been
saying to themselves "what is the most convoluted, unintuitave, and irritating way we
can construct this part of the game. I admire Mogami's efforts at mastering this mess,
but I sometimes think his defense of it is based on the notion "I had to figure this turkey
out from scratch..., everyone else should too."

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

I agree. I am a Wargamer! Not a gamer. I think overall Witp, does a excellent job of simulating the Pacific war. There are some problems. Also being able to change history with in the historical capabilities of each side I have no problem with. But too change it to something totally A-Historical, then if i wanted that I would play something like Hearts of Iron. Then I would Put the game away. I have no problem with Japan having no chance with winning the war. Why, because thats the way it was historically. We have to becareful here, so that we don't change history just too meet the Non-historical needs of some player. Again this is not a EA game( thank god). This is a pacific war simulation. [:'(]

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

ORIGINAL: MadDawg


Dont get me wrong, I think this game has great potential, but currently I have shelved it waiting for rough edges to be smoothed out as I dont wont to frustrate myself to a point where I wont want to play the game either way.

Why shelve it? Enjoy it man...it is THE BEST game of it's kind you will find anywhere. The good most definately outweighs the bad here...if you are waiting for perfection, you are in for some serious dissappointment.

I completely changed history in USAAF. By Feb of 1945 I filled the skies with ME-262's and shot down the entire 8th AF!

It was GREAT fun.....

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK I'm not a Matrix/2by3 spokes person nor am I trying to defend the game to the point of overlooking or excusing where it does not perform to design.

WITP is not an "Empire" game. It is not a "Production" game. Is is a game based on WWII in the Pacific.
The game requires some effort to play. I don't know if any program could be written that managed Japanese production to suit all players. The main focus of the game is not "what" Japan produces. The Japanese player only has to make sure he continues to produce supply and fuel.
Then he has to build enough aircraft of the proper type to fit out his new arriving groups and provide replacements to existing groups.

It takes prehaps 1/2 hour to plan this before turn one against the AI (turn two in PBEM because reiforcements are not listed on turn one in PBEM)

Using the list all airgroups function you count groups on map. Note aircraft types and upgrades. Now you know how many aircraft by type can be on map, And how many aircraft of other types you'll need to upgrade.
Go to reinforcement screen and do this again.

Now before you start or on turn 2 at latest. You know exactly the size of the Japanese airforces. I won't deny more player aids could have been inserted but then the program would be even larger. I have never felt the need for a pie chart. (Although I won't argue that others might like them. The point is the game will play either side and function and enough is provided for a human willing to speen a little time early on. You can't boot up WITP long campaigns and just jump into playing. Japan is limited by her production of supply and fuel much more then aircraft. Japan will fight the first phase of the war with what she has at start. Industry will not produce the means of altering the following phases except by it's continuing to function.
Making plans that require 2000 Franks rather then the 400 Oscar II is the problem not 2by3's bad production interface.

First off, not all players are chess masters with great pattern recognition skills.

Next, if the game is as you say, not a Production game, then Production should never have been put in the game in the detail it is in there now, or at least given the player the ability to control and alter it.

It's like they had an intent of design, and then badly missed the mark with this one. And it appears they have no interest in addressing it one way or the other. So for players and potential player, the only question remains is this area a big enough problem to cause them to abandon or refuse to purchase the game?

For me, it is not...

[strawbuk]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I completely changed history in USAAF. By Feb of 1945 I filled the skies with ME-262's and shot down the entire 8th AF!

It was GREAT fun.....

Now now - you are just taunting Frag now aren't you?

Ps does this count as page 24 of the upgrade thread - if so I will repeat all my poor puns here again.

PPS whatever the case on production if nobody buys the game 'cause of all the slagging we definitely won't get a fix as MG won't think it worth it perhaps? Constructive words, not that your aren't, with 'still a great game' somewhere in every post might be good.

[DBeves]

And here we are ...
The "Other" excuse ... they have their heads buried in code and are so busy fixing this issue that they cant take 30 seconds out to let us know what the issue actually is or that they are rectifying it.
I'm really sorry but that is just an apologists excuse.
Many people come to this board saying how good at customer response matrix are - these kind of issues are how it is proved.
I grow somewhat tired of this. There is NO reason why matrix cannot post an answer to this other than they don't want to admit that this is a serious flaw and, what I am more concerned about - is that they are not going to fix it.
There is a 25 page thread on an issue many consider to be a game breaker - the war in the pacific was ALL about aircraft - even the navy was only there to get the troops to get the bases to fly the aircraft from.
The simple fact is this - I can live with a design decision - I can even live with a bug that forces me to go to great lengths to work out something that could have been hardcoded for me. I can even live with a bug that that while it breaks the bit of the game it is meant to portray I can reach an acceptable workaround.
What I can't live with is a company that sits back and watches an argument unfold that they know is causing some players to shelve a very expensive product without a single word.
I always knew I would have to wait a while to be able to play the game properly and that we would all be beta testers to some extent but if a company wants its users to co-operate with them it is a two way street.
What I really don't want to do is wait five weeks for a patch then only to discover in the read me (cause they didn't tell us) that a resolution of this issue is in it.
Again - this is a fundamental flaw.

[Caltone]

I don't think anyone would argue that Japan can win the war. If you have any doubts, load up the '45 scenario and look at the Allied OOB [:D]

This is a wargame and while you can't win the war as Japan, you can win the game under the points system.

[mogami]

Hi, OK I see I am once again failing in my poor attempts to explain the game.
Production is required. But it is not there so much for the Japanese to alter the war with as it is as the primary focus of Allied war efforts. The Japanese have to have enough control to keep it going dispite the enemy. (So they can switch production focus to counter allied damage) It's primary purpose is supply and fuel. (not creating wonder airgroups)
There are many ways for the allies to attack Japanese production. Rather then bomb specific aircraft factories they can attack engine production. They can shut it down by targeting tankers. They can bomb Heavy Industry. In the Meantime the Japanese player will be taking steps to keep it going. I don't think you need be a chess master. Just understand as Japan that production of supply and fuel is your main effort. Stopping it is the Allies main effort. All the airbattle, sea battles and land battles that make up the OPERATIONAL focus of the game are subject to this. Operations are the primary purpose of the game. Operations depend on what is possible not on what player might like.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: DBeves

And here we are ...
The "Other" excuse ... they have their heads buried in code and are so busy fixing this issue that they cant take 30 seconds out to let us know what the issue actually is or that they are rectifying it.
I'm really sorry but that is just an apologists excuse.
Many people come to this board saying how good at customer response matrix are - these kind of issues are how it is proved.
I grow somewhat tired of this. There is NO reason why matrix cannot post an answer to this other than they don't want to admit that this is a serious flaw and, what I am more concerned about - is that they are not going to fix it.
There is a 25 page thread on an issue many consider to be a game breaker - the war in the pacific was ALL about aircraft - even the navy was only there to get the troops to get the bases to fly the aircraft from.
The simple fact is this - I can live with a design decision - I can even live with a bug that forces me to go to great lengths to work out something that could have been hardcoded for me. I can even live with a bug that that while it breaks the bit of the game it is meant to portray I can reach an acceptable workaround.
What I can't live with is a company that sits back and watches an argument unfold that they know is causing some players to shelve a very expensive product without a single word.
I always knew I would have to wait a while to be able to play the game properly and that we would all be beta testers to some extent but if a company wants its users to co-operate with them it is a two way street.
What I really don't want to do is wait five weeks for a patch then only to discover in the read me (cause they didn't tell us) that a resolution of this issue is in it.
Again - this is a fundamental flaw.

And this thing also will bring out another ENORMOUS weakness in a design that requires 1667 turns to play the main campaign game. Many patches will require a RESTART to take advantage of the fixes! Not a big deal for a game that one can play, start to finish, in a couple of weeks or even a month of dedicated play. But in a game that will require the better part of the YEAR to ge through one campaign, that is a HUGE problem! And not one I think has been readily understood by many here or at Matrix.

[Mr.Frag]

This whole thread is rather pointless as it is completely based on speculation not any from of reality from playing the game. People talk about problems that do not exist because they play with some numbers and think they have a problem by projecting the number out 48 months. That is about as valid as thinking buying a second lottery ticket improving your odds of winning by 100%.

Why don't you quit posting assumptions based on complete speculation and actually play the game instead. You might just find out to your surprise that funny enough, this *great* problem just doesn't exist. You want to complain about something, show me your mid '44-'45 save game that shows it.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK I see I am once again failing in my poor attempts to explain the game.
Production is required. But it is not there so much for the Japanese to alter the war with as it is as the primary focus of Allied war efforts. The Japanese have to have enough control to keep it going dispite the enemy. (So they can switch production focus to counter allied damage) It's primary purpose is supply and fuel. (not creating wonder airgroups)
There are many ways for the allies to attack Japanese production. Rather then bomb specific aircraft factories they can attack engine production. They can shut it down by targeting tankers. They can bomb Heavy Industry. In the Meantime the Japanese player will be taking steps to keep it going. I don't think you need be a chess master. Just understand as Japan that production of supply and fuel is your main effort. Stopping it is the Allies main effort. All the airbattle, sea battles and land battles that make up the OPERATIONAL focus of the game are subject to this. Operations are the primary purpose of the game. Operations depend on what is possible not on what player might like.

In that case, the designers probably should have allowed the computer to do things on the Japanese side to aid in keeping their economy going and not the player. Once you give a player control you open pandora's box and have made it into an Empire, Civ II game, like it or not! And they probably should have explained your point in massive bold print on page one of the production chapter, and then repeated 50 times. Frag has been stating pretty much this same point, that Production exists only for you to be able to alter things around a bit once the Allies start bombing out sectors of your economy, nothing more. But the system in place allows for MUCH MORE than that, and the reasons for it being there have been very POORLY communicated. Thus the frustration. And added frustration that the developer seems to have no interest in the topic at all.

[Caltone]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Next, if the game is as you say, not a Production game, then Production should never have been put in the game in the detail it is in there now, or at least given the player the ability to control and alter it.

It's like they had an intent of design, and then badly missed the mark with this one. And it appears they have no interest in addressing it one way or the other. So for players and potential player, the only question remains is this area a big enough problem to cause them to abandon or refuse to purchase the game?

For me, it is not...

I disagree. Mogami has provided an eloquent explanation of the production system and how it's used. If you do not wish to play with production, then don't. Much like turning over areas of the game to the AI, just leave the production alone. It will produce planes, supplies, fuel, and other machinery of war for you. Factories will even auto upgrade. All you need to do is capture oil and resources while scoring victories over the Allies. Do this well enough and you force them to offer terms (win on points) Hmm, that sounds like something I've read before [:D]

Sorry folks, this is not BTR. I sense some players have most of their factories producing Zero's, Kate's, Val's and Betty's at the start, while the rest research Frank's and Zeke's.

[Brausepaul]

ORIGINAL: Caltone

I don't think anyone would argue that Japan can win the war. If you have any doubts, load up the '45 scenario and look at the Allied OOB [:D]

This is a wargame and while you can't win the war as Japan, you can win the game under the points system.

I have to disagree, every war can be won. But I guess this would be a better discussion for a different topic.[:)]

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: DBeves

And here we are ...
The "Other" excuse ... they have their heads buried in code and are so busy fixing this issue that they cant take 30 seconds out to let us know what the issue actually is or that they are rectifying it.
I'm really sorry but that is just an apologists excuse.
Many people come to this board saying how good at customer response matrix are - these kind of issues are how it is proved.
I grow somewhat tired of this. There is NO reason why matrix cannot post an answer to this other than they don't want to admit that this is a serious flaw and, what I am more concerned about - is that they are not going to fix it.
There is a 25 page thread on an issue many consider to be a game breaker - the war in the pacific was ALL about aircraft - even the navy was only there to get the troops to get the bases to fly the aircraft from.
The simple fact is this - I can live with a design decision - I can even live with a bug that forces me to go to great lengths to work out something that could have been hardcoded for me. I can even live with a bug that that while it breaks the bit of the game it is meant to portray I can reach an acceptable workaround.
What I can't live with is a company that sits back and watches an argument unfold that they know is causing some players to shelve a very expensive product without a single word.
I always knew I would have to wait a while to be able to play the game properly and that we would all be beta testers to some extent but if a company wants its users to co-operate with them it is a two way street.
What I really don't want to do is wait five weeks for a patch then only to discover in the read me (cause they didn't tell us) that a resolution of this issue is in it.
Again - this is a fundamental flaw.

I am not apologising for Matrix, that is how I keep from getting where you are now. Since Matrix is the only game company that makes the type of game I love to play and have proven in the past and continue to provide excellent customer/tech support I give them the benefit of the doubt.

IMO, Matrix has my praise for putting up with the most "anal" of gamers, us "wargamers".
You have to design the game to appeal to the micromanagers, the "historical" crowd, the ahistorical crowd, the OOB oops crowd and march to the fight crowd "dang the micro" crowd. That is why they are the only company that really deals with this type of game any longer. Trying to make a game to appeal to all of those types at the same time has to be daunting. No matter which way they go, they will catch flak from someone.

I am a micromanagement, ahistorical type myself. i do not trust the AI to issue a single replacement 47mm gun since it will send it where I do not want it, much less run my convoys. but at the same time, i want a chance (however small) to beat my allied opponent.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

This whole thread is rather pointless as it is completely based on speculation not any from of reality from playing the game. People talk about problems that do not exist because they play with some numbers and think they have a problem by projecting the number out 48 months. That is about as valid as thinking buying a second lottery ticket improving your odds of winning by 100%.

Why don't you quit posting assumptions based on complete speculation and actually play the game instead. You might just find out to your surprise that funny enough, this *great* problem just doesn't exist. You want to complain about something, show me your mid '44-'45 save game that shows it.

So patches that involve new executable binaries are NOT going to require restarts to take advantage of? So next Dec when we are all finally getting into 1944 with our PBEM games and we discover some big problem that requires a major patch to fix we aren't all going to have to start over? You can guarantee that?

Good! We'll quote you then.

[DBeves]

Mogami...
I'm sorry .. but your explanation as to how to work out the numbers of aircraft you need to produce (whilst very useful as a workaround) merely illustrates the fact that the aircraft production system does not work the way it was intended. Where in the manual for example does it say that there is any kind of limit on the aircraft you can employ in a way that necessitates you doing this ?
I think the interface is poor (even in your example - why oh why can't we cut and paste the data from the display listing screens ?) THE most basic windows function is not even implemented.) I have put this down to the programmer - seems to me that certain parts of WITP interface are copies of GG's two earlier games on air warfare in WW2 - despite the critisism they recieved.
I am aware that it is the Upgrade path etc that has meant players wading through the editor with a calculator but that is only what makes production (in realtion to aircraft) a superfluous chore rather than an interesting part of the game.
What I am arguing is that Matrix should tell us what the issue is - bug or poor design - it can only be one or the other - either way - when we know I can consider playing the game again.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK I see I am once again failing in my poor attempts to explain the game.
Production is required. But it is not there so much for the Japanese to alter the war with as it is as the primary focus of Allied war efforts. The Japanese have to have enough control to keep it going dispite the enemy. (So they can switch production focus to counter allied damage) It's primary purpose is supply and fuel. (not creating wonder airgroups)
There are many ways for the allies to attack Japanese production. Rather then bomb specific aircraft factories they can attack engine production. They can shut it down by targeting tankers. They can bomb Heavy Industry. In the Meantime the Japanese player will be taking steps to keep it going. I don't think you need be a chess master. Just understand as Japan that production of supply and fuel is your main effort. Stopping it is the Allies main effort. All the airbattle, sea battles and land battles that make up the OPERATIONAL focus of the game are subject to this. Operations are the primary purpose of the game. Operations depend on what is possible not on what player might like.

Mogami. Can't argue with any of the above because you are absolutely right. But
unfortunately, none of what you say has any bearing on the point Dbeves raised---
which is that the INTERFACE used to control/influence Japanese production is a con-
voluted mess. We're all glad that you managed to master it. But what we can't
figure out was why you didn't tell Matrix it was an overly-complicated piece of junk
while you were testing it and suggest that they consider using a "Production Sub-routine
Spreadsheet" that would allow players to get a grip on the "production game" without
a bunch of "player-aides" and pencil and paper note-taking? Spreadsheets are some-
thing computers do exceptionally well..., and a lot of players want to know why 2by3
doesn't seem to have heard of the application?

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Caltone

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Next, if the game is as you say, not a Production game, then Production should never have been put in the game in the detail it is in there now, or at least given the player the ability to control and alter it.

It's like they had an intent of design, and then badly missed the mark with this one. And it appears they have no interest in addressing it one way or the other. So for players and potential player, the only question remains is this area a big enough problem to cause them to abandon or refuse to purchase the game?

For me, it is not...

I disagree. Mogami has provided an eloquent explanation of the production system and how it's used. If you do not wish to play with production, then don't. Much like turning over areas of the game to the AI, just leave the production alone. It will produce planes, supplies, fuel, and other machinery of war for you. Factories will even auto upgrade. All you need to do is capture oil and resources while scoring victories over the Allies. Do this well enough and you force them to offer terms (win on points) Hmm, that sounds like something I've read before [:D]

Sorry folks, this is not BTR. I sense some players have most of their factories producing Zero's, Kate's, Val's and Betty's at the start, while the rest research Frank's and Zeke's.

Sorry, but with a player controlled Production system, the EXPECTATION by a LARGE NUMBER of players was that it IS a BTR. I EXPECTED the Japanese side to be just that and was disappointed to find out that it wasn't. But then not to a degree to cause me to stop playing, just a nuisance issue. It is that EXPECTATION that is causing the problem. When you give a player control over production and the ability to "research" EVERYTHING, you give the expectation that he can eventually produce and use EVERYTHING and do it ANYWHERE. A very REASONABLE expectation by anyone.

[Titanwarrior89]

Because Japan has a chance at "winning the Game" and what a adventure in Historical wargaming to get there.[:D]

ORIGINAL: Brausepaul

If Japan has no chance of winning the war...why play at all!?[&:]Japan definatly should have the possibility to win the war (but not with production only, production might help them in winning <or loosing>).

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: Caltone

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Next, if the game is as you say, not a Production game, then Production should never have been put in the game in the detail it is in there now, or at least given the player the ability to control and alter it.

It's like they had an intent of design, and then badly missed the mark with this one. And it appears they have no interest in addressing it one way or the other. So for players and potential player, the only question remains is this area a big enough problem to cause them to abandon or refuse to purchase the game?

For me, it is not...

I disagree. Mogami has provided an eloquent explanation of the production system and how it's used. If you do not wish to play with production, then don't. Much like turning over areas of the game to the AI, just leave the production alone. It will produce planes, supplies, fuel, and other machinery of war for you. Factories will even auto upgrade. All you need to do is capture oil and resources while scoring victories over the Allies. Do this well enough and you force them to offer terms (win on points) Hmm, that sounds like something I've read before [:D]

Sorry folks, this is not BTR. I sense some players have most of their factories producing Zero's, Kate's, Val's and Betty's at the start, while the rest research Frank's and Zeke's.

Not me. Especially the way it is set up now. Just about any fighter that is produced for the IJA is better than the Oscar II IMO. The Tojo, Tony. They even arrive sooner IIRC. But some are missing the whole point. I as the IJ player am being forced to make the same choices the REAL Japanese made. 1/3 of my IJA air force is stuck with Oscar II's. Does not matter if I have a ton of any other a/c available. The only control over upgrades I have right now is WHEN they upgrade. NOTHING else. I have no other input into the upgrade of air groups. NONE.

The WITP home page even states "Player has complete control over upgrades". NOT in my version.