What is it about tank crews that they automatically get a yellow streak down their back...Guderian talks of dismounting tankers to fight as infantry when he had to...
50 m is a big area, if 2 guys have a good spot, and the 10 enemy are spead out and uncoordinated they might get lucky, though to win the 10 would have fail two morale checks and teh crew pass two, then get VERY lucky rolling... Remember melee is not necessarily 10 guys making a ring around 2 guys and playing Mortal Kombat...its a mini-firefight inside the hex, all 10 men in a squad will not be able to come to bear on the defenders.
crew taking out a squad is fairly common in ASL (well you need like a 2 or 3 and teh squad rolling 10 or more - assuming a 1 against a 4...its a lot more rare in here...
So What Do You Think of SPWaW v5.3
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
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Paul Vebber
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- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 4:00 pm
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It felt about right with the campaign I started (another one, back to '39 again 
I think the Poles are getting a little tired of me crossing their border). I'm a few turns into it and I'm playing it "out of the box" (no changes to preferences except starting build points). With 5.01 I had to boost artillery vs. soft by 20% and cut it 20% vs. armor.
But I have to admit, after checking out the screenshots and descriptions of Combat Leader and Close Assault, what happens with SP:WaW at this point is less important to me. And where it is at this point is more than satisfactory to me. I still want the MCs but I'm really wanting Combat Leader.
And again: Thanks Matrix for breathing new life into my favorite game ever. I'm more a modern combat fan (and medieval fan even moreso :rolleyes: ) so with what I've seen of CL/CA, and your plans for modern warfare versions, I'm not at all worried about SP:MW being scrapped.
Hey! Here's an idea, how about a medieval version of CL/CA!
:p
All my best,
\_STUKADAWG_/
"Rowl-ruf... WOOF !!!" the real Stukadawg.
translation: "Throw the damn ball already!"
I think the Poles are getting a little tired of me crossing their border). I'm a few turns into it and I'm playing it "out of the box" (no changes to preferences except starting build points). With 5.01 I had to boost artillery vs. soft by 20% and cut it 20% vs. armor. But I have to admit, after checking out the screenshots and descriptions of Combat Leader and Close Assault, what happens with SP:WaW at this point is less important to me. And where it is at this point is more than satisfactory to me. I still want the MCs but I'm really wanting Combat Leader.
And again: Thanks Matrix for breathing new life into my favorite game ever. I'm more a modern combat fan (and medieval fan even moreso :rolleyes: ) so with what I've seen of CL/CA, and your plans for modern warfare versions, I'm not at all worried about SP:MW being scrapped.
Hey! Here's an idea, how about a medieval version of CL/CA!
:p
All my best,
\_STUKADAWG_/
"Rowl-ruf... WOOF !!!" the real Stukadawg.
translation: "Throw the damn ball already!"
What is my impression of 5.3?
Hmm....
It's as close to actually being on the battlefield, while still sitting in your recliner with a beer and a bag of chips in your hands!
Paul, I think you guys have finally hit the target...realism with playability. Infantry that acts like infantry, artillery that acts like artillery, and tanks that act like tanks...no "superhuman" soldiers, no "useless" artillery, and no "invulnerable" tanks. My congrats on a job well done....even if some of us were a bit quick on the "naysaying" after 5.2 came out.
Hmm....
It's as close to actually being on the battlefield, while still sitting in your recliner with a beer and a bag of chips in your hands!
Paul, I think you guys have finally hit the target...realism with playability. Infantry that acts like infantry, artillery that acts like artillery, and tanks that act like tanks...no "superhuman" soldiers, no "useless" artillery, and no "invulnerable" tanks. My congrats on a job well done....even if some of us were a bit quick on the "naysaying" after 5.2 came out.
Maybe I am missing something here.
The idea with 5.3 is you now pin down your enemy and then beat him with arty til you can melee with him.
When we went to ...hmm...5.1? We changed the game, specifically, arty by adding rarity.
All i know as a German is I am lucky to get 1/2 the arty I used too..at twice the cost!
So if I now have to rely on arty to help defeat my enemy it becomes very hard when you get so little at so great a cost.
????
Kerg
The idea with 5.3 is you now pin down your enemy and then beat him with arty til you can melee with him.
When we went to ...hmm...5.1? We changed the game, specifically, arty by adding rarity.
All i know as a German is I am lucky to get 1/2 the arty I used too..at twice the cost!
So if I now have to rely on arty to help defeat my enemy it becomes very hard when you get so little at so great a cost.
????
Kerg
Field Marshal Kerg, Combat Command Stats-> Games Played = 141, Points/game = 4179, <br />Average Placing = 3.4, W% = 28%, L% = 29%, D% = 44%, Total Points 589,232, Leagues Entered = 10, Top Three Finish % = 80
Life is not always meant to be easy. 5.3 freaking rules. I'm not sure it's perfect (not that anything is), but it is awesome. Part of SPWW2 and SPWAW was about making infantry 'righter' in the SP system. This is a climax in that endeavor. I'm really enjoying it so far... and I'm rapidly changing down the defenses I made in a scenario I'm mostly done with about the first day of the Kursk offensive in SST's sector.
Tomo
Tomo
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Paul Vebber
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Sounds like you might want join the Tiger Team going over the OOB's.
What you describe is one way to do it - basically how the US went from village to village across France, but in the jungles or in Russia it is not always possible.
The point is that enemy troops on the other side of a stone wall, down in a gully, or behind a tree, are not going to be mowed down with the ease they were before. The more suppression, the less exposure and the harder to drive off. RIght now it takes about 20 rifle shots to get a "kill chance" against entrenched or "full cover". Assuming your shot hits, then the enemy experience plays its role, elite troops are more canny, Green tropps keep their head up longer. BUt those 20 shots will put typically 40 - 80 supression on him. Often that squad will remain pinned for the next turn.
IF 3 guys are hunkered down in tree roots in a woods, how are you going to kill them? You have to find the tree root they are hiding behind and get them. You can't do that from 50m away. Often spraying enough fire around in the vicinity will keep them hunkered down to teh point they can't really do anything and then can be mopped up alter. Same with a foxhle, or a wall. You need about a 3 to 1 numerical advantage now to have a decent chance of carrying a well defended position...and bring a lot of body bags... before if you gamed your fire wel, you could do it with 1 2 or 3 squad advantage over the enemy.
A "Shot" from a rifle or LMG is about 5 rounds, so if 5 out of 10 men fire in a "shot" (what you would expect for 75 experience since exp rolls are typically out of 150 max exp is 140) then that is about 25 actual rounds. Predominantly unaimed.
There was very little added benefit to being in cover, becasue the old routine gave you so many "free" kills that those determined by being in cover or not were barely noticable. You got 1-2 kills about 33% of the time, maybe 25% of the time in cover, more maybe 10-15 % and missed the rest of teh time
My work has been, and continues to be to get the combat arms to operate in their proper relationship. We are now in 5.3 about as close as we are going to get.
Now the task becomes honing the OOBs to synch with what is the "final" Comabat model in SP:WaW. There may be one last tweak for the East Front Mega-Campaign but that remains to be seen - it depends on how the changes affects the scenarios already done (100's..!!!!) and would be relatively minor.
So now the OOBs can be groomed for what folks think the best data is to o with what many think is the best combat model...at least until it gets some more added for CL...
What you describe is one way to do it - basically how the US went from village to village across France, but in the jungles or in Russia it is not always possible.
The point is that enemy troops on the other side of a stone wall, down in a gully, or behind a tree, are not going to be mowed down with the ease they were before. The more suppression, the less exposure and the harder to drive off. RIght now it takes about 20 rifle shots to get a "kill chance" against entrenched or "full cover". Assuming your shot hits, then the enemy experience plays its role, elite troops are more canny, Green tropps keep their head up longer. BUt those 20 shots will put typically 40 - 80 supression on him. Often that squad will remain pinned for the next turn.
IF 3 guys are hunkered down in tree roots in a woods, how are you going to kill them? You have to find the tree root they are hiding behind and get them. You can't do that from 50m away. Often spraying enough fire around in the vicinity will keep them hunkered down to teh point they can't really do anything and then can be mopped up alter. Same with a foxhle, or a wall. You need about a 3 to 1 numerical advantage now to have a decent chance of carrying a well defended position...and bring a lot of body bags... before if you gamed your fire wel, you could do it with 1 2 or 3 squad advantage over the enemy.
A "Shot" from a rifle or LMG is about 5 rounds, so if 5 out of 10 men fire in a "shot" (what you would expect for 75 experience since exp rolls are typically out of 150 max exp is 140) then that is about 25 actual rounds. Predominantly unaimed.
There was very little added benefit to being in cover, becasue the old routine gave you so many "free" kills that those determined by being in cover or not were barely noticable. You got 1-2 kills about 33% of the time, maybe 25% of the time in cover, more maybe 10-15 % and missed the rest of teh time
My work has been, and continues to be to get the combat arms to operate in their proper relationship. We are now in 5.3 about as close as we are going to get.
Now the task becomes honing the OOBs to synch with what is the "final" Comabat model in SP:WaW. There may be one last tweak for the East Front Mega-Campaign but that remains to be seen - it depends on how the changes affects the scenarios already done (100's..!!!!) and would be relatively minor.
So now the OOBs can be groomed for what folks think the best data is to o with what many think is the best combat model...at least until it gets some more added for CL...
Ack, infantry being as tough as in SPWW2 sounds pretty scary, because that made tanks in SPWW2 practically useless. IMO, infantry has already been "the thing" to buy, with tanks and artillery being a bit iffy. I hope this won't throw things out of whack. But soon I'll see by myself.
A friend told me he had a crew with one man in the open, with a Sherman, a .50 cal MG, a rifle squad and another crew firing it and it took 3 turns to kill the crew.
[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Kharan ]
A friend told me he had a crew with one man in the open, with a Sherman, a .50 cal MG, a rifle squad and another crew firing it and it took 3 turns to kill the crew.
[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Kharan ]
I guess the thing that bothers me most is that all the old scenerios designed for "old" infantry are horrible now to play. Try the first scenario after the tutorials that you ship with the game- you know, the late 45 russian vs. green german troops. With only 3 81mm mortars for the russians, its virtually impossible to get anywhere in the game.
It might be more realistic, but the game is not fun anymore.. Does 5.1 ship with the cd? if so, I'm going to stick with that, and wait for your new games.
It might be more realistic, but the game is not fun anymore.. Does 5.1 ship with the cd? if so, I'm going to stick with that, and wait for your new games.
I have only played one game with 5.3 so far so this may be off the wall. I have noted an increase effectivness of fire from Infantry at higher elevations, particularly MGs. But have not seen any indication of close range being more efficent. I get the impression (again this may be off the wall) that firing at a range of 3-5 I get more kills than at a range of 1. This is the only indicator I can use since we are not privy to the suppression level of enemy troops.
Also in this game I took terrible loses form pinned squads. How do you keep an enemy unit suppressed so you can melee??? If it is routed and you fire on it, usually it turns to pinned and fires at you, with what appears to be increased effect.
Oh yea I am playing with a standard German Infantry Company with the 50mm Mortar replaced with another MMG, with two AT guns and no tanks. So after killing all the tanks it's an infantry battle.
Any suggestions?
Also in this game I took terrible loses form pinned squads. How do you keep an enemy unit suppressed so you can melee??? If it is routed and you fire on it, usually it turns to pinned and fires at you, with what appears to be increased effect.
Oh yea I am playing with a standard German Infantry Company with the 50mm Mortar replaced with another MMG, with two AT guns and no tanks. So after killing all the tanks it's an infantry battle.
Any suggestions?
5.3 has definitely fixed the problems of 5.2. Thanks. Two problems remain.
First. A victory hex SHOULD NOT change hands when an enemy enters the hex filled with defenders. It's irritating to see two crewman enter a hex with an entrenced rifle squad or tanks and see the hex change control. Control is at best 'contested' and should change to neither side's control. This is especially galling on the last turn of a battle. Can a routine be employed to prevent this? Especially if the attacker is eliminated or forced out. I then have to unentrench, move out and back into my own hex.
Second, I'm finding infantry able to walk right up to entrenced defenders and armor, getting blasted by MANY 99% shots and still just blissfully assaulting and destroying the defenders. Sure, you have the heroes, but this is happening consistently. As attackers get closer, the effects of rifle and MG fire ought to be supressing/reducing their combat ability a lot. If the attacker 'sneaks up' using terrain/wx/etc and isn't spotted, then fine but just walking up to a couple of tanks blasting away with 3 MG's each against spotted, moving defenders in open terrain and then watching as the squad chucks grenades and blows the tanks away is a little unbelievable when it happens VERY often.
Is a future fix planned to increase effectiveness of small arms vice range? Does the pre-assualt check take into account the amount of fire received? Everyone talks about the '50 meter' hex. Does the pre-assualt check take into account the difficulty within that 50 meters to actually close with a vehicle firing at an attacker?
First. A victory hex SHOULD NOT change hands when an enemy enters the hex filled with defenders. It's irritating to see two crewman enter a hex with an entrenced rifle squad or tanks and see the hex change control. Control is at best 'contested' and should change to neither side's control. This is especially galling on the last turn of a battle. Can a routine be employed to prevent this? Especially if the attacker is eliminated or forced out. I then have to unentrench, move out and back into my own hex.
Second, I'm finding infantry able to walk right up to entrenced defenders and armor, getting blasted by MANY 99% shots and still just blissfully assaulting and destroying the defenders. Sure, you have the heroes, but this is happening consistently. As attackers get closer, the effects of rifle and MG fire ought to be supressing/reducing their combat ability a lot. If the attacker 'sneaks up' using terrain/wx/etc and isn't spotted, then fine but just walking up to a couple of tanks blasting away with 3 MG's each against spotted, moving defenders in open terrain and then watching as the squad chucks grenades and blows the tanks away is a little unbelievable when it happens VERY often.
Is a future fix planned to increase effectiveness of small arms vice range? Does the pre-assualt check take into account the amount of fire received? Everyone talks about the '50 meter' hex. Does the pre-assualt check take into account the difficulty within that 50 meters to actually close with a vehicle firing at an attacker?
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Charles2222
- Posts: 3687
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:00 am
gdpsnake: You've pointed out a problem that remionds me of a majot problem I've seen in the game, though happily I rarely get myself in those tight spots. What I'm referring to is not on the offensive as you're describing enemy assults, but the defensive enemy. If I advance a tank adjacent to numerous enemy units EVERY ONE OF THEM can assualt the tank from that one lousy move, if the tank should last so long. I think their should be a limit to what you might call opassualting, every bit as much as opfire. For one thing, let's assume the tank runs into 9 units, is assaulted 9 times and survives. Then I rally rally it and fire once, then, it's assulted 9 more times unless the other units are suppressed. I know that logically I would be wise to pull out if it was still mobile after the rallying, either that or throw another unit into the fracus, but to get assaulted so many times by one action, by one unit, just isn't right.
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Kluckenbill
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Lancaster, PA, USA
I just got my disk yesterday so I was up late getting started on 5.3.
Can anyone tell me if the issue of infantry close assaults has been addressed. This issue has been covered repeatedly in this forum. I think that infantry close assaults were far too effective against armor in the prior versions of SPWAW. Has this been changed in V5.3?
Can anyone tell me if the issue of infantry close assaults has been addressed. This issue has been covered repeatedly in this forum. I think that infantry close assaults were far too effective against armor in the prior versions of SPWAW. Has this been changed in V5.3?
Target, Cease Fire !
Reading Charles_22 I'm reminded of something I've noticed and am not sure it's accurate... basically the AI can attack (each OPS Fire opportunity) with as many units as pass the test during my turn but on the AI turn my OPS Fire always seems to be limited to two units max regardless of units which should seemingly pass the test. Was just wondering if this is my imagination/luck or is there some difference in the OPS Fire/opportunity routine between AI and human player.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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Charles2222
- Posts: 3687
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:00 am
Rover: There is, and it's been admitted as such. The player never gets more than twice (unless, perhaps, he gets opassault as the computer does) in opfire while the AI gets three times. This is done to help the computer's weakness it is said, but sometimes I have to wonder if it really doesn't 'hurt' the computer more, because it often gets it into so much retargeting that come it's actual turn it often doesn't have enough volleys left to concentrate on one target to the degree it could have otherwise.
While playing the Finns against USSR in a frozen lake scenario, I have had success killing the USSR infantry in trees and rough cover. I suppress them with close (1-2) hex fire. Then one of my squads (or two if I'm lucky) gets into the same hex as the USSR and blazes away. Even if I do not get a kill, the USSR stays in retreat or rout mode, especially after more rifle and MG fire. On the next turn, the squad in the same hex can melee with great results against even 2-3 enemy suppressed squads. If my squad cannot melee, usually close in submachinegun, MG, or grenade causes casualties. I even get an occassional rifle casualty even in trees. That scares the USSR squad into retreating, which makes them vulnerable because they have moved. If my squad can melee usually at least one enemy squad surrenders and the other run. The one adjustment that I made to the game is setting infantry toughness to 90%.
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New York Jets
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2001 8:00 am
- Location: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
I've only been playing SPWaW since April. But as a wargamer of 30 yrs and having searched in vain for the last 5 yrs (my last ftf opportunity) for an acceptable and close approximation of ASL, I must say I could not be happier with this game. While I haven't played SP as long as some others to be able to make fine distinctions between 5.01 to 5.3, I am a stickler for accuracy, detail, and what seems to be overlooked by some, namely flavor and aesthetics. When I play this game I get a "feel" for the time and place. The map and unit depictions are beautiful (and yes, accurate) to watch. Maybe by the time you guys get to v5.8 or so, I'll be able to squeeze in enough time between my career and family to join in the fine technical discussions regarding the game programming. Don't take me incorrectly, I truly appreciate the effort some of these guys put in to improving the product. But for now, all I know is that it is the finest WWII tactical simulator I have played on the computer. Keep it up everybody! Only one question though. How soon can we maybe expect some Korean War scenarios?
"There comes a time in every man's life, and I've had plenty of 'em."
- Casey Stengel -
- Casey Stengel -
