Should changing the aircraft upgrade path cost Political points?

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: testarossa

I voted yes. There has to be the price for changing the history.

And I think allies should not have this option at all. Or at least PP penalty for Allies has to be enormous.

P.S. I'm in July 1943 playing allies against AI and have more than enough Lightnings, Hellcats and Corsairs to wipe the table by Jap air force.

OOH, you are going to piss off the Allied boys with that suggestion. But I agree, they do not have to fear FUBAR'ing their production.

[Jaws_slith]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Experiance loss should not be more then a point or 2. A trained pilot is around a 50-55 rating. Losing 20 points is a bit much.

The Allies cannot alter their production so they are limited in number of groups they can alter and the timing. The Japanese can convert to new aircraft models every group they want within 6 months of that aircraft entering production.
If we keep the auto upgrade of factories where they convert instantly and free of charge the Japanese could upgrade even faster.

I voted yes,

Allies cannot alter their production..... this means that we can only update the squadrons if there are enough aircraft in the pool made by the computer. A Jap player can made any plane he like (of course with a little penalty). I think the PP must be 10 to 20 for the allies unless their production is also adjustable. (I prefer a free Allies production system limited by the real historical production date)

[CMDRMCTOAST]

I voted yes but I think it should be a small price to pay
on top of the other penalties incurred maybe a small drop
in experience and political points based on some kind
of average of the # of squadrons affected.
the smaller the amount of squadrons involved the less penalty incurred
and vice versa.

[mlees]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I will say yes, but it should be limited to about 50 pp points. That keeps it fairly small and managable for the Japanese player, yet not free.

I as the Japanese have trouble keeping PP points in my pool, but I try and switch HQ's for my units when I can so the chain of command makes some sense to me.

I will avoid the historical arguments, because what happened in history goes out the window the moment I make my first order.

I vote yes too, but 50 points is too small, IMO. That's only one days' PP allowance. (Just because you are meticulous and change the HQ to the theatre the unit is going to be in does not mean every other Japanese player does.)

Since the game already has a code to calculate the cost to change HQ's for the air unit, use that. (I think it's 4 times the max number of aircraft in the unit.) I think that amount is good.

[Mr.Frag]

this means that we can only update the squadrons if there are enough aircraft in the pool made by the computer

The Allied production rates are 1711 aircraft per month when the game starts. It only goes upwards from there.

Even dealing with the FG (the largest unit in the game), thats 23 complete groups of aircraft every single month.

[Harald1050]

I voted no, because i totally agree with the arguments of mikemike.

[mlees]

Some bombers, some are Dakotas, some are avengers, etc. Not every Allied fighter unit is gonna be Corsair/P51.

If you don't agree, then put a stiff PP on swapping aircraft models outside of the current "path".

[Mr.Frag]

Not every Allied fighter unit is gonna be Corsair/P51.

Don't need to be, lots of P-40N's, P-38's and other pretty little numbers that eat Japanese aircraft until some of Japan's '44/'45 aircraft can be brought online. [:D]

[mlees]

Than a meaningful PP cost is called for then, right?

[Mr.Frag]

Personally, I look at it as a free for all ... thats what you guys wanted ... thats what was built.

Adding rules that complicate it just means people will be complaining about the rules later after playing just like we are seeing in the CV coordination thread now. It was a great thing when it was added and EVERYONE was FOR it. Now it is just some eveil code that stops a player from doing what they want.

Thing very carefully when you vote for stuff. Your choice just might come back to haunt you in the future. [;)]

[Tanaka]

Voted YES. This game needs to be as historical as possible with some choices with limits.

Is this going to be an optional switch for the game??? Seems like a lot of people are going to prefer to keep playing with the historical planes that were really there. I know id like the choice of playing a more historical game vs playing a more fantasy game.

[Mr.Frag]

Is this going to be an optional switch for the game??? Seems like a lot of people are going to prefer to keep playing with the historical planes that were really there. I know id like the choice of playing a more historical game vs playing a more fantasy game.

toggle yes/no

[Xargun]

I voted yes as without some penalty every unit will be flying the best aircraft available on both sides... As for the amount of PP cost it should be variant, depending on what model your convert them too. If you convert Claudes to Zeros it should be very cheap, but if you convert Nates to Zeros it should be expensive... Also, it should be fairly cheap to convert backwards... Converting Zeros to Nates should be close to free as you are losing a lot of capability in that switch - but you may have 4 zeros in pool and 1000 Nates...

The cost with an Army unit upgrading to a Naval aircraft (if allowed) should be much higher due to the difficulty with the two branches cooperating - moreso for Japan than the allies.

Forcing units to only upgrade with national aircraft would be a good addition too... British bomber groups should not be flying B-17s or B-29s... But if not possible that can be easily handled via House Rules.

Also, if we get to convert groups to whatever we want, we need some way to stop auto-upgrades of factories... Be a real pain if you convert all your fighters to A6M2s only to have all the factories autoconvert to A6M3s on you...

Xargun

[mlees]

Adding rules that complicate it just means people will be complaining about the rules later after playing just like we are seeing in the CV coordination thread now. It was a great thing when it was added and EVERYONE was FOR it. Now it is just some eveil code that stops a player from doing what they want.

You will never satisfy everyone. I'm positive I don't need to remind you of this.
Some people want complete freedom to do what they want, when they want, others want a game very closely aligned to historical accuracy. I can play the game either way.

Thing very carefully when you vote for stuff. Your choice just might come back to haunt you in the future.

Maybe so, but never admit that you goofed when that future time comes.[;)]

[testarossa]

ORIGINAL: Xargun


Also, if we get to convert groups to whatever we want, we need some way to stop auto-upgrades of factories... Be a real pain if you convert all your fighters to A6M2s only to have all the factories autoconvert to A6M3s on you...

Xargun

Yep, something like convert - do not convert, similar to aicraft upgrade button in the squadron menu.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Personally, I look at it as a free for all ... thats what you guys wanted ... thats what was built.

Adding rules that complicate it just means people will be complaining about the rules later after playing just like we are seeing in the CV coordination thread now. It was a great thing when it was added and EVERYONE was FOR it. Now it is just some eveil code that stops a player from doing what they want.

Thing very carefully when you vote for stuff. Your choice just might come back to haunt you in the future. [;)]

That's not an entirely fair statement. Everyone is not for it 100%,but that's what the polls lead the devs to think. The polls are hip shots which only offer extremes, not well thought out design enhancements. CV coord thread addresses issues which implementing it have caused without balancing other issues like CAP etc. This toy feature you are putting in the game (the aircraft upgrade WALMART), if included, needs to be severly tempered as well.

[WhoCares]

We are still talking about changing single units, not the whole upgrade path, right? (Mogamis first post confused me a little bit)

Anyway, assuming we are talking about single units, yes, I'd pay PPs for changed upgrades. The price tag - no glue [:'(]
Maybe 10x the max. number of planes (=270PP for the usual Zero Daitai => ~1 upgrade per week worth of PPs)... And remember, you would have to pay the same price for any future upgrade of those airgroups.

How about downgrades (except Kamikaze groups?)? Any special treatments for those? Maybe 1.5x the usual price?

[testarossa]

Hmm, I thougt the poll IS about changing upgrade paths from historical ones. The discussion about PP or exp penalty for upgrading squads is hijacking.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The Allied production rates are 1711 aircraft per month when the game starts. It only goes upwards from there.

Even dealing with the FG (the largest unit in the game), thats 23 complete groups of aircraft every single month.

And yet you are so squeezed on production of P-40Es (40 per month) through 1942 that it is impossible to keep more than one or two squadrons of them in action, while you try to make do with P-39Ds, Hurricane IIs and worse. This is pretty much as it should be, of course, and is part of the challenge that faced the Allies historically and that is presented nicely by the game design.

Still, all the talk around here is about how to enhance Japanese production capabilities so that they can have the latest models in action in large numbers, history be d@mned. Where's the historical challenge in this?

I just don't get it - and count me as one customer who never asked for any of these changes.

[Mr.Frag]

We are still talking about changing single units, not the whole upgrade path, right? (Mogamis first post confused me a little bit)

No, by virtue of how the code works, there really are no upgrade paths anymore. You go in and *set* the upgrade path for the unit to what you want.

Then you order it to upgrade now.

Basically, you are free to change every upgrade path there is in the game to whatever you want.

There are some controls to reflect catagories (ie: a naval bomber can't jump into the land fighter catagory, etc).