February Update

Empires in Arms is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. Empires in Arms is a seven player game of grand strategy set during the Napoleonic period of 1805-1815. The unit scale is corps level with full diplomatic options

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Sonny
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RE: February Update

Post by Sonny »

ORIGINAL: ardilla
ORIGINAL: HordesOfSerbs

I dunno if it's difficult, but it's not well managed, that's for sure. It's becoming a joke.

..........................

But again, I dunno if you had ever played EiA or either if you know about programming.
So, think twice before you make such comments if you "dunno" about it nothing.

He doesn't have to know about programming or EIA. All he has to know about is that it is taking a damn long time to get this game out.

At least with this game Marshall keeps us up to date with what is going on. Keeps the wait tolerable - or almost so.
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"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
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yammahoper
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RE: February Update

Post by yammahoper »

First game was a tank game. Great plastic models with cardboard chits on the back end, though I cannot remember the name for the life of me. Next was "the Illiad", an Avalon Hill game where one side was troy and the other the greeks. Heros were selected by drawing cards so each game wold be different. Ah, good times being 10-13 with unlimited time (almost) to play games (but little money to buy new ones!).

yamma
...nothing is more chaotic than a battle won...
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donkuchi19
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RE: February Update

Post by donkuchi19 »

I think the game was called Tank Battle. You had green tanks and tan tanks. It played kind of like Stratego (another fun game) where each tank had a number value. If two tanks met, the higher value won. I think there were AT guns too.

I had that one, Sky Battle, which was two Bi-Planes on stands that you shot marbles at. If you knocked out the two stands, your plane was shot down and you couldn't shoot your gun anymore.

Don't forget Risk either. And then the granddaddy of them all Chess.

Finally, my favorite early war game. I set up my army men. You set up yours. Then we through stuff at each other. We used rubber bands, marbles, and whatever else we could find. I once used a D battery but got in trouble because I accidentally hit my cousin with it.
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coregames
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RE: February Update

Post by coregames »

For me it was Tactics II.
"The creative combination lays bare the presumption of a lie." -- Lasker

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pasternakski
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RE: February Update

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: coregames

For me it was Tactics II.
One of my worst memories of wargaming is associated with Tactics II. The map grid (laid out in squares) in my copy was printed so that the roads ran exactly through the corners of the squares, so I devised my entire strategy based on how far units could go when moving diagonally. One weekend, a friend of mine and I got together at his house to play a game. I started moving my units as I was accustomed to do, and he said, "Wait a minute. You can't do that." I looked at his game board. It was printed slightly off, so that the roads didn't go exactly through the corners of the squares. He insisted that I had to count all the squares the road went through, thus slowing down my magnificent offensive and derailing all my plans.

I pleaded that it was obvious what the intention of the game designers was, but to no avail. It was his house and his game board. He killed me (he was blue and I was red).
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Sonny
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RE: February Update

Post by Sonny »

I discovered Tactics II after I got Gettysburg for Christmas.
Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
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ardilla
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RE: February Update

Post by ardilla »

ORIGINAL: Sonny

He doesn't have to know about programming or EIA. All he has to know about is that it is taking a damn long time to get this game out.

It is taking a long time, but it helps if you know how complex it is the game and how complex it is to programming it. I will tell you more, that programming time is probably exponential to the complexity of what are you programming.

If you dont know how far it is NY from Alaska and you dont even know how are you travelling, how can you argue it is taking a long time?!?!?! C'mon!!

Anyway, as most people said, this is not taking anywhere, I am sure MG are the ones more interest in finishing this "damn" game and make some cash and vacations!
Lets them take their time to make this computer game as great as the boardgame or even better!
Santiago y cierra España!!!
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carnifex
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RE: February Update

Post by carnifex »

yamma lol i used to have that game, first time i have ever heard it mentioned since 1982, when my idiot clumsy friend waltzed all over the board and crushed the little plastic tanks

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donkuchi19
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RE: February Update

Post by donkuchi19 »

I was right. It was called tank battle. I forgot about the HQ, The depot, and the other little thing though.
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denisonh
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RE: February Update

Post by denisonh »

Blast from the past. I remember having that one.

The first two that got the most play from me were Midway and D-Day, although the FIRST wargame that I ever got into was AH's 1914.

My dad bought it but put it away as too complex. I found it and the facination began.
ORIGINAL: carnifex

yamma lol i used to have that game, first time i have ever heard it mentioned since 1982, when my idiot clumsy friend waltzed all over the board and crushed the little plastic tanks

Image
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Sonny
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RE: February Update

Post by Sonny »

ORIGINAL: denisonh

Blast from the past. I remember having that one.

The first two that got the most play from me were Midway and D-Day, although the FIRST wargame that I ever got into was AH's 1914.

My dad bought it but put it away as too complex. I found it and the facination began.
ORIGINAL: carnifex

yamma lol i used to have that game, first time i have ever heard it mentioned since 1982, when my idiot clumsy friend waltzed all over the board and crushed the little plastic tanks

Image

I could never get into 1914. Guess I was looking for more "action" like there was in Midway.
Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
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denisonh
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RE: February Update

Post by denisonh »

1914 got me interested, and I subsequently got DDay and Midway. They were much better. I wish I still had my Midway game, but I still have DDay, that is damn near worn out from excessive play.
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Treefrog
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RE: February Update

Post by Treefrog »

1914 was a favorite of people who thought glaciers moved too fast!!
However, I enjoyed it for the opportunity it gave to pit against each other those classic matchups: Bulgaria v. Turkey, Austria v. Italy, and my personal favorite, Italy v. Turkey. Now, if we have EIA, we could explore the historical antecedents of many of those same matchups. If we had EIA.
"L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."
HordesOfSerbs
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RE: February Update

Post by HordesOfSerbs »

Ardilla, spare me the crap. As a matter of fact, I cut code for a living and know software development in and out. But like that matters at all. Anyone with half a brain between his ears can figure out that this project is woefully behind and God knows what we'll actually get when it's released. And yes, I bought EiA when AH released it back when you've been peeing in the sand and played it intensely a number of years. I didn't have problems you have encountered - the rules took some time to digest, but it is one of best game systems I ever played, the right blend of grand strategy controlled by VPs and excellent tactical chit system.

Besides, if you knew anything about coding, you'd realise the simple fact that actually having a set of defined rules in form of a specific rulebook is actually much, much easier to code then something that you have to create, scope and playtest, because half of the job has been actually done for you. So stop whining how a very well structured, playtested and enjoyed EIA rules system is a "mess". What's a mess here is Matrix trying to reuse some of it's codebase and hack a different game engine to fit EiA, and a little bit of vice-versa to save some time and got caught there. In words of Peregrin Took: "Short cuts make long delays."

Marshall, I'm not having a go at you, mate. I don't blame you for anything. As I said I don't think this is well managed, because what your managers should be doing now is throwing some extra bodies on this project to put it finally to bed!... If I was in your shoes I'd be probably bored to death now anyway. You're doing your bit and we'll see what it's like when you guys finally release. And no, I don't think I'll thank your testers - what the hell have they been doing until now to find a biggie like this so late in the process?!

One last thing: people seem to think that the more they wait, the better the game would be when released. I disagree and I'd actually like Matrix to release whenever the game is reasonably playable between humans. Stuff AI and other fancy crap, because the alternative might be that deadlines are kept being pushed and it just gets killed in the end. Or, worse still, Matrix hacks it up, drops all hard bits that don't work and release some bastard with fancy name that actually might be playable, but it's not EiA.

So I'd fully accept that we'd get a buggy release that will be happily patched afterwards. I don't care. I don't care if we get a can of worms that costs $150. I'd still buy it, it's EiA. Just bloody release it.
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pasternakski
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RE: February Update

Post by pasternakski »

You obviously haven't been listening.

This project began as an attempt to cut a brand-new strategic Napoleonic game out of whole cloth. The initial design had not advanced very far when the project changed to a "port" of EiA.

As Marshall Ellis has pointed out, this is the point where he got involved. He has tried to work with the game engine that was beginning to emerge in the pre-EiA design and graft EiA the boardgame onto it. I am sure it has been a difficult and frustrating experience, and I am glad he has stuck to it. The TMR addition was bound to throw a monkey wrench into things, at least temporarily. I don't hear any "whining" from the design team, and I think that this is an unfair characterization of their attempts to keep the potential customer base informed about progress.

As a tech professional, you must realize that there is far more to game design than just "coding" the rules for an existing cardboard-and-paper simulation. For example, there's that little varmint known as the artificial intelligence that has to be created and integrated - you don't have one, your game will not sell. The vast majority of people who buy computer games do so in order to play solitaire. This is one of the reasons FPS games sell by the hundreds of thousands and sophisticated simulations that do not offer a satisfying computer opponent (like WitP) sell by the thousand or two.

So let's have some patience and see what the actual product is before criticizing it or labeling it as a failure.
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coregames
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RE: February Update

Post by coregames »

I'd much rather the game be done right, and I am willing to wait as long as it takes to accomplish that. On a side note, pasternakski, is your icon a Crumb illustration? It certainly looks like it could be from Zap comix or some such vehicle.
"The creative combination lays bare the presumption of a lie." -- Lasker

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pasternakski
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RE: February Update

Post by pasternakski »

It's Mr. Natural, the Man from Affighanistan, mentor to Flakey Foont and long-time grumbler and mumbler about how god runs things...

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Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
HordesOfSerbs
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RE: February Update

Post by HordesOfSerbs »

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You obviously haven't been listening.

I don't hear any "whining" from the design team, and I think that this is an unfair characterization of their attempts to keep the potential customer base informed about progress.

As a tech professional, you must realize that there is far more to game design than just "coding" the rules...

So let's have some patience and see what the actual product is before criticizing it or labeling it as a failure.

What's the point of this post?... I haven't been listening? I got sick and tired of people tip-toeing and writing 'goody-goody' posts after an "update" that goes on like "we're almost there" and after two years a basic thing like TMR pops out of the blue. Stuff that.

Besides, you've got trolling from people that provoked me to reply in this manner who obviously don't have a clue what is this all about. If you haven't noticed, my post had two parts, one directed to ardilla, the other for Marshall. 'Whining' was reserved for ardilla blaming "messy" EiA rules for the delay; not for design team informing us about progress - although if they keep informing us in the same manner they shouldn't bother really.

Yeah, I know it takes a lot more to make a game, thank you. My point was that if you have a tested system like EiA with anal-like rules that are actually a very good form of user requirements, it is a half of the job done. But some tend to think if the rules are complex it takes "exponential" time to develop the game and you're gonna make errors along the way (implying you're going to spend a huge amount of time to clean them up, so we're all fine and dandy and "we're almost there").

That's bullshit and I know that from experience, because when you put something on the paper and start cracking it's just a matter of time and in how many chunks you're actually going to finish it. When you start changing the scope that's when the things like TMR start to raise their ugly heads.

And yes, if I may humbly offer my .02, you should be able finish it two years afterwards, unless you're under-resourced which seems to be the case here. Why don't throw an extra resource on it and raise the price of the game to cover it up? Because nobody knows how much longer this will actually take and perhaps it won't be wise to spend more money on it, perhaps?...

And for AI... It's a nice little essay you wrote about and I applaud the common sense you've unleashed on us, but that's sadly not the point. Of course they have to go through the motions and release some sort of AI. But you're implying it's one of those things it's taking them a long time to finish because it's a hard thing to develop (it is, BTW), hence the frustrating wait.

On the contrary, I don't think they have spent that much time on AI, nor they would at all. I think they have (or will) develop some basic heuristics that are not time consuming to code & test and leave it at that. I can place a sizeable wager that they won't bother at all with tweaking it so it actually plays grand campaign even remotely close to a human. As long as it does the battle and have some half-assed strategy about collecting VPs, it will be fine.

And rightly so, because if they start chewing on AI, judging by the time spent so far, I bet Matrix EiA will be a huge hit in the nursing home when I retire. If I was in Marshall's place AI would be the last thing on my priority list when there are issues with TMR and PBEM play - as I gather from some post elsewhere. I would even scrap it for campaign type play and enable it for scenarios only - it's a smaller scope to manage (only the military aspect vs diplomatic/economic ones).

So no, I'm don't have any more patience, and yes, I want to criticise how the project goes because the longer it goes, the greater the chance it would never finish (that is from experience as well). Mind you, I never criticised the product itself or labelled it as a failure. How could I, as all we've got is a vapourware screenshots so far, full of those ugly fuzzy counters?...
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: February Update

Post by Marshall Ellis »

Hordesofserbs:

Appreciate the passionate post! Suffice to say, many things were done that I wish I could have done differently BUT that's not the hand that I was dealt! Oddly enough, I think I feel much as you do (Except for the slant on our testers WHO have done a brilliant job in my opinion)!?!?!?

Fair enough that I take these shots because clearly we're behind ... sorry!

Thank you
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
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ardilla
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RE: February Update

Post by ardilla »

Well Mr. Perfect or I may call you GOD?!? [&o]

Its very easy to tell how to do something in a piece of paper or in 50 lines post.


After reading your post I can tell you want to tell us the following:

1) You will buy the game for $150 bucks if it goes out tomorrow.

2) In other cases you are not going to wait and buy it.

3) By yourself you will had finished it already.

4) You dont like the counters.

5) Made Marshall lossing 15 minutes reading and 5 replying, making the game take 20 more minutes to be finish.

So plez, dont tell us how to do it and try to make some constructive comments in the forum, you and we will I appreciated.

Thanks
Santiago y cierra España!!!
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