Make OOB comments HERE

kkrull · Post by **kkrull** » Thu May 11, 2000 3:57 am

First off, thanks for taking the time to answer questions.

Be glad you get a bargain and only pay 7 points of a squad (A bug that will be fixed btw...)

I won't be glad as the Germans.... Do you know what the value is supposed to be? Armor costs seemed reasonable - just a few of the infantry squads seemed a bit high, which I can easily change.... I was thinking half again the cost of Soviet, as there are twice the men.

Also, I created a quick battle, German vs Poles in Oct' 39 to check unit info, and while the experience of the Poles was lower than the German, the Morale did not appear to be significantly lower.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu May 11, 2000 4:24 am

IT should be about double - infantry should be between 12 and 30 pts...7 is definatley too low!

THe game is a lot different and teh points are hard to judge so let us know what you think should be changed. IT takes more playing than we had time to do to get it weighted right between armor/arty/infantry/ planes ...

3rd Recon · Post by **3rd Recon** » Thu May 11, 2000 5:16 am

Do you think Canadian ABN forces will be added? Also will the germans ever get Ski/Mtn troops for winter scenarios?
thanks
3rd Recon

Desert Fox · Post by **Desert Fox** » Thu May 11, 2000 7:07 am

Here's something I just thought of. Shouldn't the German 88mm Flak also be able to fire indirect missions? If I recall correctly, it was used like that historically, as well as in anti tank and anti aircraft missions. I guess it might be a programming hurdle, but if its not, its something worth thinking about.

Supervisor · Post by **Supervisor** » Thu May 11, 2000 8:10 am

Originally posted by Desert Fox:
Here's something I just thought of. Shouldn't the German 88mm Flak also be able to fire indirect missions? If I recall correctly, it was used like that historically, as well as in anti tank and anti aircraft missions. I guess it might be a programming hurdle, but if its not, its something worth thinking about.

The 88MM is an AA gun that can be used in the AT role. It can also be used for a direct fire infantry gun. It cannot be set as an offboard artillery as well. It would then lose its other abilities.

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Grenadier
SPWAW Beta Team

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Thu May 11, 2000 6:02 pm

Some OOB comments on the top three countries. I can't pretend to be an expert on any of this stuff, so I'm only putting in what I'm sure about, although there are a few extra things I THINK are wrong.

The US
1.Why do the Calliope and Whizbang only have rockets? They should be armed like other Shermans.
2.A lot of the artillery has the old generic pictures from SP1. This comment applies to all countries.

The USMC
1. The picture of the Truck Mounted Rocket shows a Soviet Katyusha.
2. The Boys ATR picture shows a Bazooka.
3. The Marines didn't have any B-25's, and the picture shows an F4F.

Germany
1. The picture of the Pz. IIIM shows a Pz. IV.
2. Porshe Maus should be spelled Porsche.
3. The Sd.Kfz. 6/2 picture is wrong.
4. The Ju. 87 B-1 only had 2 wing MG's.
5. The icon for the Ju. 87 G is wrong, it looks like one of the Bf. 109 ones.

Apologies if anyone has mentioned any of this before. I'll look at more countries tonight. Thanks for the awesome game.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Thu May 11, 2000 6:19 pm

For those concerned about troops and their actions on the field...we decided that in most SP games, units folded too easily. So we made them a little quicker to rally and fight again.

Nothing more frustrating than to have a screen full of routed units that won't move, fire or do anything but sit there. I hate that!

That's why units recoup and fight quicker than before.

WB

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Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Thu May 11, 2000 6:49 pm

Could it be possible to create a german foreign unit country so to say. That way you can remove some of the oob from the germans and add more german stuff and add more of the accuired equipment that they used to the german foreign acquisition. This seems possible since you can choose your countries just like in sp3.

I played the second scenerio the one with the gemans using every possible vehicle they have,and found shermans to be represented by t34 icons.

Other than that so far so good. Thanks Guys.

Nick Papp · Post by **Nick Papp** » Thu May 11, 2000 6:49 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
I would argue it was very much a lack of training and morale...they were trained for a different war than the one that was thrust upon them, and once the operational mismatch was manifest, morale certainly suffered.

Agreed to a point, but I don't think this is necessarily the case. Battles are fought by tanks, guns and men,and the variances you find are do to those local engagements, troops and officers. There are TONS of examples where units "outfought" themselves. Even with bad weapons, tacticts and supporting arms, men in armed conflicts can do some remarkabke things. Think of the Rumanians on the north flank of the Stalingrad salient in who held of the massed Soviet tank armies much longer than expected with almost no AT and little artillery or air support.

We all hace to rememeber - "the history is written by the victors". And that can often overstate or understate a specific country's contributions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Such things are matters of judgement and no consensus if likely to ever be reached on such a thing, since it is so abstract. THe alternative of doing such things "historically" as outlined above would be a life's work for someone and then STILL be argued.

One of the best "after-market" features of this game series has been the utilities which allow you to modify the unit variables. The morale settings are a bit different, as there has not really been a good editor to easily modify this value for a specific scenario.

Fred Chlanda, who has added so much in the way of these utilities has a program called SPED23 - an scenario editor that is usable with SP2, SPWWII and SP3. Thsi program allows the user to modify various variables that are not so easily done within the game itself. Morale is just on eof those variable you can change for a specific scenario. So if you want to have a brave buch of Poles or Rumanians, or Italians who fight their "last stand" you cna model that into the scenarios.

Fred will VERY likely be doing up a new version of this editor soon. If you want to give him some "encouragement", write him at

chlanda@hotmail.com

This way we don't have to have it perfect, as perfection is truely in the eye of the beholder!!

Regards,

Nick Papp

Kevin G · Post by **Kevin G** » Fri May 12, 2000 1:50 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panther:
Could it be possible to create a german foreign unit country so to say. That way you can remove some of the oob from the germans and add more german stuff and add more of the accuired equipment that they used to the german foreign acquisition. This seems possible since you can choose your countries just like in sp3.

The Nationalist Spanish OOB for the years 1941 to 1943 should do for that. It represents the Blue Division, which was an Infantry only division, so you don't have any of the armor or other fancy stuff that the regular German oob has; just infantry, infantry guns, and some arty and air. It can be very challenging against a tank-rich soviet force!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri May 12, 2000 3:59 pm

The russian SO Paratrooper have a rifle with the performance of the german MP44 (StG44), but the Paratroopers are available June 41 !
Is this correct?

In the german OOB there exist a FG42 and FJ Gewehr 42 which should be the same, but the FG42 have an acc-value of 2/4 resulting in 0 acc. The weapon should be erased.

Desert Fox · Post by **Desert Fox** » Fri May 12, 2000 5:27 pm

I have an idea for an addition to the american oob. How bout putting the T-28 superheavy tank in? It was designed to be used in bunker assaulting on mainland Japan with its 155mm main gun. It would really be cool to see one of these in a hypothetical invasion of Japan scenario.

Mark_Ezra · Post by **Mark_Ezra** » Fri May 12, 2000 5:35 pm

For OOB change consideration:

US Army should not be supplied with the bazooka or M-10 TD until March '43. Bazookas had been delivered to front line troops just days before the Kasserine Pass battle but the troops had yet to be trained in it's use. I have yet to find a reference to the M 10 at Kasserine...but there are plenty of pictures of smoldering M3 GMC to indicate they were there in a TD roll. So let's add some AP to the M3 GMC/75M2 Gun and put it in a slot from Dec '41 to Dec '43. These dates will allow us to play an accurate battle of Kasserine Pass and assures that US Army forces in the Pacific are accurately supplied.

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Fri May 12, 2000 7:01 pm

Looked at the second three countries last night. Here are my comments:

UK

Humber Mk. IV-has the same picture as the Mk. II
All Marmon-Herringtons have a picture of a Ba-64.
Humber SC/LRC-has the Mk. II picture
Cruisers Mk. I to Mk. IIICS have the same picture.
Centaur IVCS has a picture of some other tank, a Cromwell, I think.
The Tomahawk should have either 4 or 6 MG's, not 5.
The Mustang III has 16 MG's!
The Truck of Death (B-26) has been covered.
Most of the CS tanks have the same picture as their non-CS counterparts.

ANZAC

The captured M 13/40 is free.
The Valentine IIICS is free and has the same gun as the regular III.
Nearly 2/3 of all infantry/cavalry, etc. have Suomi SMG's.
The Rover Light armored car has a 57mm gun. Just doesn't seem right.
The Boomerang has a Hurricane icon.
The Australian ships are a bit odd. Each only has one gun, no armor, and is very small. The Hobart is size 3, awfully small for a cruiser. They should probably be eliminated and replaced with generic naval gun support.
The Hurricane Mk. IV has 8 20mm cannons.
The Beaufighter should have 4 20mm cannons, not 8.
The Spitfire Mk. VIII has a brutal 6 20mm cannons and 15 MG's!
The Hurricane Mk. IID weighs in at 19 MG's and 4 37mm cannon. If this is supposed to be the variant with the Vickers S guns, it should have 2 MG's and 2 40mm cannon. I'd hate to see what these two planes could do to a column of troops.
The Baltimore has a Blenheim icon.
The Wirraway has the wrong icon and should only have 2 MG's.
The LVT A (2) is missing its turret.
The Vickers Medium has the picture and icon for the Light Mk. I
Troop appears after all the glider and transport names.
The DC-3 really should be the C-47 or Dakota, depending who's using it.
In both UK and Anzac, the Spitfire and Hurricane icons seem to get mixed up occasionally, and the Typhoon looks like a Hurricane.
In the ANZAC listing in the encyclopedia, the units seem incredibly jumbled compared to other countries.

Finland
The Fokker D. XXI should have 4MG's and no cannon.
Those guys on horses sure get around! They've shown up as everyone's cavalry and mule team so far.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Fri May 12, 2000 7:20 pm

Keep these things coming...We will fix them!

Thanks a bunch Seth!

Supervisor · Post by **Supervisor** » Fri May 12, 2000 7:44 pm

That's right. You can't even give it away.<G>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seth:
Looked at the second three countries last night. Here are my comments:

ANZAC

The captured M 13/40 is free.

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Grenadier
SPWAW Beta Team

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Fri May 12, 2000 9:27 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Keep these things coming...We will fix them!

You asked so..

19 out of 34 Finnish FT-17 tanks were mg-versions, so this should be added.
Versions of BT-7 tanks were M35 and M37 models, I think the -7a version with 76,2 mm gun was not in use.
T-28 tanks were reinforced to E models so the basic model should not be available until 49 but around 43 instead.
There is a strange bunker thing. The OOB file contains several bunkers that have their nationality as Germany. They also have bit strange weapon combinations. Have these bunkers been left out intentionally or is it a bug?
MOLOTOV COCKTAILS! What a shame to forget the main AT-weapon during the winter war.
SG43 MMG has a wrong pic
Seth already mentioned the cannon equipped Fokker. Btw, cannons were actually trialed but they slowed the plane down and their recoil caused inaccuracy.
Pz-IVj's machine guns should be DT's
OT-130 flame tanks were converted quite rapidly to gun tanks so the availability date should be changed..until 1943 I think.
What's a 75mm vz.19 Field gun? My sources don't recognize it. Better choice would be 75 K17. (American 75MM Gun M1917)
KV-1 tank trivia bit

There were only two tanks in use and they were different models, KV-1E m1940 and KV-1 m1942. Trivia 2: It's still the heaviest tank that has been in Finnish use.
Myrsky II fighter was a complete flop, it participated only in the Lapland war (carefully) and was withdrawn from service already in 1947 after one plane disintegrated in dive. Remove it. Or if you want a replacement use a MS 406 instead.
Gaz-AAMG. Did you want to include a mobile flak? Afaik some were captured in winter war but they certainly were not in use before that.
there were only 12 152 H 15-17 guns in use, better choice would be russian 152 H 09-30, over 100 in use during continuation war.
Many cannon units have Suomi SMG's. These should be replaced with some crappy rifles, for example italian rifles. It was a common practise to give poorer weapons to units that were not really frontline units.
In the coastal gun bunker the 203mm naval gun is tad uncommon..4 were in use. A 152/45 Canet was the most common Finnish heavy coastal arty, you could use a 150 or 155 mm naval gun in it's place.
Landsverk 182 armoured car was armed with one 13,2mm HMG and two 7,62 LMG's. (one car was in use)

I may later look at the individual weapons. Already I'm quite amused that for example Sten SMG has same accuracy as Suomi SMG, but weapon stats are something that can be argued forever.

Hopefully this post comes out even semilegible...

Voriax

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Fri May 12, 2000 9:35 pm

Weren't those 4 203mm's in old Russian turrets? I seem to remember a website offering a virtual tour of one.
As far as eliminating them goes, I like variety. As long as there were some, why not keep them? I suppose for countries whose unit space is full, like Germany things are different, but Finland has room.

[This message has been edited by Seth (edited 05-12-2000).]

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Fri May 12, 2000 9:56 pm

Originally posted by Seth:
Weren't those 4 203mm's in old Russian turrets? I seem to remember a website offering a virtual tour of one.
As far as eliminating them goes, I like variety. As long as there were some, why not keep them? I suppose for countries whose unit space is full, like Germany things are different, but Finland has room.

[This message has been edited by Seth (edited 05-12-2000).]

These guns were 'open' with just the gun shield. Those turreted ones you recall are most likely the 305mm ones, and the website is: http://www.hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/kuivasaa/kuivasaa.html
I was really suggesting that the naval fort could stay but the main weapon changed. There is indeed plenty of space in the OOB file so it would be easy to make a 2nd fort with smaller gun.
Heh, if you think about it most of the hardware in the Finnish OB are such items that were in (very) short supply.

Seth · Post by **Seth** » Fri May 12, 2000 10:10 pm

Yes, that's the turret I was thinking of. That would be a really cool unit. Especially vs. hordes of Russian infantry, ahahaha! I've often been fascinated at how some of the smaller countries managed to fight with such a bizarre grab-bag of equipment. Maybe there could be a way to offer a 'historical supply' preference option for those who prefer realism, to keep people from parlaying two Finnish KV-1's into an armored division, etc.