What do you think of Yamato?

[Lord_Calidor]

I think Yamatos made perfect sense and made a good use - they poked Americans right in the eyes by having the most armored, most armed, most-everything ships in the world, and in the right moment, too. [:D]
Japan was starting to feel a bit hard pressed for material and man labour, and it's true that they could put that to more useful ships, they stroke fear wherever they went, and tied incredible amounts of US air & naval power to put them below the waves.
Maybe they knew it was a wrong move, but anyhow went away with it, "not because it's easy, but because it's hard!" (beginning of 60's race to the Moon, guys [;)] ).

[crsutton]

It is all elemantary my dear Watson, as each and every one of the fast battleships was hopelessly obsolete they day they slid down the ways. Iowas were no different from the Yamatos in that respect. Only difference, is the US could afford the mistake.[;)]

[Tiornu]

Thanks for directing me to my own penetration tables--hee!

[ChezDaJez]

Well, what goes around, comes around.

Seriously, good work on those. They are pretty informative. Keeps the "I thinkitis" down to a manageable level.

Chez

[Tiornu]

Rob Lundgren did all the hard work. I just ease his burden of accepting credit for it.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Iridium

Both of the YAMATO's forward turrets open fire at a distance of 20 miles. Of her six forward rifles only two are initially loaded with AP shells, the remainder with Type 3s. The YAMATO's F1M2 "Pete" spotter plane confirms that the first salvo is a hit. The carrier starts to smoke. Three six-gun salvos are fired on the same target, then the fire is shifted to the next carrier. It is concealed immediately by a smoke screen made by the American destroyers.

Love to know where you got the information above. To the best of my knowledge, the longest range at which a hit
was ever obtained in a sea battle was just over 26,000 yards by the Warspite against an Italian BB in the Med.
The 20 miles you mention is over 35,000 yards, and would certainly have been mentioned in a lot of sources.
Especially as you claim it was made with a "ranging (1st) salvo". That would rank as incredible to say the least.
US sources generally agree the most of the damage at Samar was caused by the Japanese heavy cruisers which
closed the range rapidly. If Yamato had been plinking things at 20 miles with her first shots, it's doubtfull Taffy 3
would have survived the action.

[Tiornu]

The info from Nihon Kaigun is likely correct for the Japanese records, but the aerial spotter for Yamato was apparently wa-aa-ay off. As far as I know, the first 46cm salvoes weren't even close enough to be noticed. I'm guessing the spotter saw ships making smoke and thought they were shell hits.

[freeboy]

wow, I read the shells went right through the ships and never exploded and the ships where able to limp away... I wish I could remember where I read that..

[Mike Scholl]

Another interesting question would be how the "Pete" was able to cruise around spotting above
6 hostile aircraft cariers..., with 12 more just to the south. I know the US bombers were making
dummy runs on the attackers when they couldn't land to get re-armed---but I'd never heard
that all of the US Hellcats in the area had run out of ammo. If that "Pete" pilot survived the
day, I'd be curious to know just how far away he was doing his "spotting" from. Just a thought.

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

wow, I read the shells went right through the ships and never exploded and the ships where able to limp away... I wish I could remember where I read that..

Perhaps you are thinking of one of the Iron Bottom Sound battles?

[Tom Hunter]

I think I read the same thing, and it was in Morrison writing about this battle. My recollection is that it was one of the DDs or DEs that survived a heavy shell hit (maybe 18"?) that went all the way through without exploding.

By the way I think the Japanese made a terrible design decision when they failed to concentrate the gun turrets on the forward part of the ship A la Nelson and Rodney. If they had done that they would have had enough armor left over to build another Yamato. [:D]

[Tiornu]

Through-and-throughs are not that uncommon, especially for Japanese shells with their long delay (literally ten times as long as most others). Some of the most damaging hits on the three New Orleanses at Savo were through-and-throughs.

[Iridium]

I got this info off of the Yamato's log from here: Link

[freeboy]

Strategically, the use of Yamato was certainly less than the cost... but she was impressive in her day.... I agree that more planes and CV/CVL with a much improved training program would have been the best use... but that is 20.20 no? Maybe the ? should be:" how best to use the beast?" in Witp game and in reality?

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

Well, I could agree with you - but first, the Yamato would have had at least 2 years 'fun in the sun' - Iowa came along a little late [;)]

I believe her real contemporaries were the North Carolina class - good ships, but not quite Iowa. Not the same Radar advantage, either. Pick up your favourite simulator, and play, gentlemen...

Actually back in the late 60's early 70's there was a minitures game called "Seapower". We ran the yamato vs the Iowa several times in that game. Statisically the Yamato should have the edge, but Iowa won 75% of the time. And a fair number were to magazine explosions. Maybe just karma.

A friend and I played PacWar quite a bit. Enterprise always seemed to attract that 1 stray torp that would set her a fire and eventually sink her. We to this day call the Big E "the fire queen". [;)]

[ChezDaJez]

Actually back in the late 60's early 70's there was a minitures game called "Seapower". We ran the yamato vs the Iowa several times in that game. Statisically the Yamato should have the edge, but Iowa won 75% of the time. And a fair number were to magazine explosions. Maybe just karma.

I think the Iowa would hold the edge only during night or times of reduced visibility due to her radar. Yamato also had radar but it wasn't automatically incorporated into the fire control solution like the Iowa. Data had to be passed manually. Yamato did have outstanding fire control optics however so in bright moonlight or in the daytime, Iowa's radar advantage is negated somewhat. Yamato also had much longer range and could, theoretically, maintain a faster rate of fire.

You might be interested in these 2 sites. Both state that Iowa would be unable to penetrate Yamato's armor. Even the US Navy ballistic tests against face hardened armor plate removed from the Shinano during her conversion determined that Iowa could not penetrate her armor at tactical ranges.

This site contains the actual testing data of the Iowa's 16" gun against Shinano's armor (identical to Yamato).

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-040.htm

The site below claims that the Royal Navy and Dutch Navy confirmed Japanese claims of 50km (30mi) ranges for the 18" guns and up to 80km (48) with certain type shells.

http://members.shaw.ca/millerww2/ww2/hi ... urces.html

I'ld be interested if anyone has any real world data that supports the contention Iowa could penetrate Yamato armor.

Chez

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez


I think the Iowa would hold the edge only during night or times of reduced visibility due to her radar. Yamato also had radar but it wasn't automatically incorporated into the fire control solution like the Iowa. Data had to be passed manually. Yamato did have outstanding fire control optics however so in bright moonlight or in the daytime, Iowa's radar advantage is negated somewhat. Yamato also had much longer range and could, theoretically, maintain a faster rate of fire.
Chez

The Range factor is meaningless. The chance of a hit at over 30,000 yards is about the same as being hit by a falling
satelite. Iowa's turrets are more automated, so the Rate-of fire advantage is probably based on Japanese wishfull
thinking. The Iowas is quoted from actual maintainable activity. And Iowa's optics weren't bad either.

[Tiornu]

"The chance of a hit at over 30,000 yards is about the same as being hit by a falling satelite."
Ow! Dang it, what was that?

"Yamato also had much longer range and could, theoretically, maintain a faster rate of fire."
Iowa's gun range was 42,345 yards. Yamato's was 45,275 yards. It's hard to find any practical advantage in that.
Yamato's firing cycle at the loading angle is about half a minute, similar to Iowa's, but Iowa's guns elevate at a rate 50% faster than Yamato's. All in all, I don't see much advantage either way, and in any case, the time of flight at ranges beyond 20-25,000 yards is greater than the firing cycle. So unless they're firing without spotting, the firing cycle will not slow things down for either ship.

"The site below claims that the Royal Navy and Dutch Navy confirmed Japanese claims"
I have looked at this web page, and I am stunned at the number and degree of the errors. Consider:
>>British/Australian and Dutch recon and spotters from the beginning of the war confirmed with accurate measurements that the Yamato’s guns fired well in excess of even Japanese equipment claims of 54 kilometres.<< Let us ask ourselves when the Allies had the opportunity to make this observation. Hm--at the beginning of the war when Yamato was not yet in service...? Wait, perhaps they'll answer this question for us. >>When lending shore bombardment or just testing against land targets, the Dutch and Royal Navies later confirmed with on-sight inspection that the Yamato’s were capable of throwing certain of their shells up to 80 kilometres.<< Ah, but of course, it was when the Allies were observing Yamato perform a shore bombardment mission. Yeah, I remember when that happened.... But wait, there's more! >>the Dutch Navy confirmed the Yamato was absurdly accurate at over 54 kilometres.<< Right. I can confirm that every time Yamato fired on Dutch forces, it was at ranges beyond 54km. After all, Yamato never got within 54km of Dutch forces.
>>On the otherhand, the Iowa’s 16/50 guns were unable to effectively penetrate the Yamato’s vital armour at any provable range.<< One suspects the influence of mind-altering drugs. >>Japanese sources now claim the Yamato decks at 12” rather than the 6”, 7”, 9” or even 12”<< And which sources are those? Is it that Starship Yamato comic?
How much more of this can I stand?
>>However, everytime our Iowas fired, even in poor visibility, they would be giving away their positions for the Yamatos to range on.<< So the Japanese gunnery personnel will be taking rangefinder readings on muzzle flashes? Somebody's been watching too many Combat! reruns.
>>However, the Yamatos and Nagatos were to have top priority for the newer engines which would probably make them at least 33 knots if not more according to comparative engineering calculations on existing power to weight ratios.<< What's that? Yes, ladies and gentlemen, we have confirmed the influence of those mind-altering drugs. I'll finish with one last quote.
>>The Musashi was sunk after supposedly suffering an estimated 27 bomb and 22 torpedo strikes. The Yamato was supposedly hit by 47 bomb and 27 torpedo strikes. The Yamato was loaded with over 2,000 heavily armed marines hampering crew action and damage control to boot. The Shinano, a carrier conversion, was sunk with skeletal crew by a claimed 14 torpedo hits all to one side(wisely), 6 simultaneous and despite being incomplete with no damage control parties still took over 7 hours for her to sink.<< This passage is completely true, as long as you cut off each sentence after the verb "was."
Caveat Surfer. Was this page created as a deliberate lie?

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

Well, I could agree with you - but first, the Yamato would have had at least 2 years 'fun in the sun' - Iowa came along a little late [;)]

I believe her real contemporaries were the North Carolina class - good ships, but not quite Iowa. Not the same Radar advantage, either. Pick up your favourite simulator, and play, gentlemen...

When you think on it that's about all Yamato did, play in the sun for three years and then die. As Scholl noted, an utter waste of resources.

[Tristanjohn]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

I hate to open this can of worms again . . . but one of the Iowa-class ships would have eaten her for lunch. [;)]

And what about armour? Washingtons were first planned to the 35 000t limit and with 356mm guns and armour to protect them only from 356s. The main armament was changed but armour was not. South Dakotas were quite simillar to the previous ones. And Iowas were faster and up-gunned (longer barrels of 406s as I remember). They were also up-armoured? I doubt that....

It wouldn't have been a function of armor but rather hit percentage. I think the Carolina-class would be a more even match for Yamato, and even there my best guess is Yamato would have had to slink away and lick her wounds. Versus Iowa and her superlative radar-controlled fire it was not much of a contest on paper. Of course we'll never know now, because Yamato sailed off one day and got herself stung to death by . . . bees. [8D]