The best sub-machinegun?

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Gen. Maczek
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Post by Gen. Maczek »

Originally posted by Overlord:



Pull the bolt all the way back and the top of it is a little sliding bar. Push the bar towards the receiver of the PPSh and it will lock the bolt to the rear.

:D Yup, thats the way to solve it, but at the risk of being severely chewed off by 'higher authority'...My uncle said everyone knew of this method, but it wasnt in any manual, and most were scared to do it as it was 'outlawed' (after all Soviet weapons couldnt possibly be flawed :rolleyes: )...Also not too handy if you found yourself having to fire the weapon in a hurry.
Regards.
Gen. Maczek

[ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: Gen. Maczek ]
Tombstone
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Post by Tombstone »

I heard that the only reason why Sturmgewehr was called machinenpistole was to ok the project with hitler or something. He was against the development of the assault rifle or something. Just cause I call it a thing doesn't make it a thing.

Tomo
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Post by troopie »

Originally posted by Tombstone:
I heard that the only reason why Sturmgewehr was called machinenpistole was to ok the project with hitler or something. He was against the development of the assault rifle or something. Just cause I call it a thing doesn't make it a thing.

Tomo

Hitler wanted the Wehrmacht to keep using the Mauser 98k. After all, if a bolt action rifle had been good enough for him...

I'd say the UMD 1942. A very reliable SMG, easy to manufacture but for some reason not issued to US forces. I've fired the MP38, Thompson, PPSh, and Sten, and of those I'll take the PPSh. The Suomi may be better, but I have no experience with it.

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Bonzo
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Post by Bonzo »

Hi General Mayhem,
Who knows well Russian submachineguns
and their history?
Reason is that I have recollection that some Russian submachinegun was was copy of Finnish Suomi SMG. But if so, which one?

In 30's, one Finnish person defected to Soviet Union, carrying blue prints of Suomi sub machinegun. So it may have something to do with it.

Best submachinegun....Suomi submachinegun
of course!. Accurate and reliable. Which is
quite well from II world war SMG's. Atleast
I wouldn't use Sten.
The SMG I think you are referring to is the PPD-1934/38 that was produced in the USSR from 1934 to 1940. It had an action derived from the German MP18 and the magazine is a direct copy from the soumi. It does bear an external resemblance to the Finnish weapon, but is mechanically different.

Personally, my 'vote' for the finest SMG of WW2 would have to be the American UD M'42. A fine weapon produced in small numbers by the Marlin Firearms Company & relegated to the back pages of history.
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troopie
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Post by troopie »

Originally posted by Bonzo:
Hi General Mayhem,



The SMG I think you are referring to is the PPD-1934/38 that was produced in the USSR from 1934 to 1940. It had an action derived from the German MP18 and the magazine is a direct copy from the soumi. It does bear an external resemblance to the Finnish weapon, but is mechanically different.

Personally, my 'vote' for the finest SMG of WW2 would have to be the American UD M'42. A fine weapon produced in small numbers by the Marlin Firearms Company & relegated to the back pages of history.
Thanks that's the one I was trying to think of.

troopie
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Mike Rothery
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Post by Mike Rothery »

Any SMG that can't be relied upon to fire reliably just shouldn't rate......amazingly this would confine about half the SMG's ever made to the dustbin of history.

I love the talk about the "mystical" stopping power of the .45 ACP cartridge, which has been proven beyond doubt to be a really poor performer in its military full metal jacket guise......short range curve, poor penetration, low energy transfer.

An SMG for infantry can be larger and heavier than that designed for vehicle crews, and would normally have a longer barrel. That's why the UZI did well an SMG for vehicle crews, but quickly got replaced by assault rifles for the grunts.

In Australia, the only SMG the Army was ever happy with was the Owen Machine Carbine. The Thompson and Patchett were only issued in small numbers, the AUSTEN (modified STEN) never saw combat, and only the Owen was kept post-war. After going to WWII, Korea, Malaya, Borneo and Vietnam the small number of Owens was finally worn out and were replaced by the F1 (a modified Sterling). The F1 was never a real success, and only saw limited use in Vietnam, mainly as a crew weapon. The Owen was also seen in the hands of British troops during the Malayan Emergency.

The problems with the Owen were caused by it being too well made. It was slow to produce, a bit on the heavy side, and it had a fairly small cone of fire (you have to really wave it around to spread the fire). However it was reliable, accurate, well made, and very strong. But the proof of its worth comes from the simple fact that it went to 5 wars and saw frontline service for over 20 years.
MikeR
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Post by swagman »

I recall a digger who fought in the Pacific saying the Australian Owen SMG was the best, atleast in that theatre.

It was simple, light and reliable. In addition it was easy to clean and would keep on firing regardless of mud or water.

In the Pacific where troops often had to carry their own supplies for long distances in appalling conditions, a light weapon was extremely important.

The Thompson was heavy and its ammo was heavy...above all its recoil kicked up...so that it was difficult to maintain aim or get a controlled arc of fire.

The beauty of the Owen was it kicked to one side, so it actually created its own arc of fire...no digger would EVER throw away his Owen.
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Belisarius
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Post by Belisarius »

Originally posted by troopie:



Hitler wanted the Wehrmacht to keep using the Mauser 98k. After all, if a bolt action rifle had been good enough for him...

I'd say the UMD 1942. A very reliable SMG, easy to manufacture but for some reason not issued to US forces. I've fired the MP38, Thompson, PPSh, and Sten, and of those I'll take the PPSh. The Suomi may be better, but I have no experience with it.

troopie
I think one of the main reasons for Hitler's opposition to the StGw44 was yet ANOTHER kind of ammo. He wanted a weapon that could use the standard Infanteripatrone 7.92x57.
As the truth dawned on him, he cancelled the project but at that time it was already being in front line use, and the military convinced him that the weapon was needed.

Note: StGw44 uses the Kurzpatrone 7.92x33 ammo.
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Rundstedt
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Post by Rundstedt »

This is how I would describe the four most abundant sub-machineguns issued to troops during the war:

Sten Gun; Cheap and easy to maufacture, poor performance and unsafe.

MP-40; Easy to handle and adequate penetration values, somewhat expensive and prone to jamming.

PPsh ("The Russian One"); Cheap to manufacture and high rate of fire, poor stopping power and accuracy.

Thompson; Good stopping power and reliable, very expensive and quite poor penetration values.

Note: I've listed two advantages and two disadvantages with each weapon. :)

Regards, Rundstedt :D
"We never underestimated the Red Army, contrary to the general conception. The last German military attaché in Moscow, General Köstring - a very competent man - had kept us well-informed about the condition of the Red Army. But Hitler refused to believe h
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Post by Jarkko »

Originally posted by Bonzo:
Hi General Mayhem,



The SMG I think you are referring to is the PPD-1934/38 that was produced in the USSR from 1934 to 1940. It had an action derived from the German MP18 and the magazine is a direct copy from the soumi. It does bear an external resemblance to the Finnish weapon, but is mechanically different.

Personally, my 'vote' for the finest SMG of WW2 would have to be the American UD M'42. A fine weapon produced in small numbers by the Marlin Firearms Company & relegated to the back pages of history.
Actually, even more exact Soviet copy of Finnish 9mm Suomi M/31 SMG existed. Soviets made a small number of almost exact copy in Leningrad during seige, I think it was called "karelo-finskij automat m.42" (aka KF-42).

Anyway, Suomi SMG is my favorite WWII SMG. Quite a good pages about it: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/suomi1.html
NeoWhiteWolf
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Post by NeoWhiteWolf »

In a poll situation like this on SMG's you have to remeber the classic SMG's only had certain applications.... If i had a choice between a K98 and any SMG in a standard fighting situation which is most soldiers have 25% cover or more id take the rifle....smg's were produced for City fighting and Police actions...I mean the average effective range for a rifle was 75yrds to 500yrds....the Earlier assualt rifles could do anywhere between 50yrds to 250yrds....and finally Smg's were between 15yrds to 100yrds...The germans didnt utuilize the Mp38/40 as much as they could have...They belived in standardization...8mm Rifles and 8mm LMG's.....


Over all all SMG'd exceled in one or two areas...the Mp38/40 i fired could do good damaged at good distances but yet pentration wasnt there....

The Thompson 30rnd and Thompson 75/100rnd (Used limitted in Pacific theatre) had power out the wazzoo but for the early .45 pentration was a little lacking and after 30yrds the bullet starts dropping

The russian SMG's were created for City fighting and suicide charges....I mean 2k men with PPSH's coming at you will do damage...But agaisnt armor and MG positions they were usless..

The STEN was a solution to a problem that could have been avoided...The US were providing Britain with Thompsons as early as 39' but Britain decided that they were to expensive so they found a way to produce a more reliable 9mm smg but came up with a gun made up of .39 cents of steel and other materials...The thopmsons sold for more then a Model T Ford...

And finally on the Spanish. French, and Itallian Smg's were not to influential or more ppl would know them then the Mp40 or PPSH...

Now and days the SMG is reducded to again the original plan....Police Actions...and Special Forces.... Like here in the US the Seals and Recons utilize the MP5 and variants along with SWAT and Other special Police Task Forces...

So if i had to choose a good SMG i would choose the Mp38/40...... When i fired it...it felt like an extension...the Germans had a knack for making Ergonamical weapons...Like The K98 may be a little ugly at first but feels good when you fire it...
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acrosome
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Post by acrosome »

Greetings, All,
I'm new to the forum, though I've browsed it for years- as long as I've played Steel Panthers, probably.

For what it's worth, I'm one of those who say that discussions that run along the lines of "What XXX was the best?" are academically void. One should better specify- best for what? Call me wishy-washy if you like, but I think I make a hard argument.

That said...

Overall, I think that the Sten was the engineering success story of the war. The British needed a few hundred thousand if not millions of submachineguns that they could stamp out in no time, and at this the Sten was an unmitigated success. They were, as has been mentioned, very simple and easy to maintain, though hideously inaccurate and outright dangerous. But I would also state that, franlkly, these drawbacks were unimportant to the British, who had greater problems. One can- and many people have- make Stens in garage workshops. Many of the same statements can be made about the US M3 "grease gun." It was also nearly universally hated by those who used it, but it could be stamped out in the thousands unlike the weapon that it replaced, the venerable Thompson (which required quite a bit a milling during production). I'd rather be backed up by twenty guys with M3s than two with Thompsons.

Another point regarding the rating of weapons is made by the PPSh. It was also dangerous, terribly inaccurate, and, frankly, ugly. But it had a beautifully chromed barrel that allowed it to use ammunition with corrosive primers that would reliably fire in the sub-zero conditions prevalent on the eastern front in winter- without pitting into uselessness. As such I would say that it was better engineered for the reqirement it was meant to fill than even the beatifully milled and fitted MP40 was. I would prefer an ugly but functioning PPSh to a beautiful but useless MP40 if my life were on the line.

My final two cents... The Stg44 is no more a submachinegun that the M1 carbine was. Both fired a cartridge midway between the pistol and rifle ammunition of the time, as has been stated. The M1 was meant to replace the officers' or NCOs' pistols with a weapon with a little better effectiveness, and thus is proabably not properly an assault rifle, though some authorities have argued that position. The Stg44, though, was from it's inception designed for the functions that we today associate with the assault rifle. It's developers used nearly the exact same argument that later assault rifle deveolpers would use- that since most infantry engagements take place at less than 500 meters or so, the infantryman does not need a full-power .30 caliber cartridge such as the .30-06 or .303. Thus a lower-powered cartridge would suffice, be more controllable in rapid fire, and allow the infantryman to carry more ammunition.
The whole MP43/44 mess was a semantic trick that no one really understands, though as stated above some think it was meant to deceive Hitler, who was committed to fast and cheap submachinegun production at the time. Thus the weapon was labeled MP and put into production anyway. I understand that the cat was let out of the bag when Hitler read a dispatch from the front begging for "more of these great new rifles." I'm surprised someone wasn't shot over that one. I've also been led to beleive that once Hitler was convinced of the utility of the weapon it was he, personally, who christened it "Sturmgewehr"- literally, "assault rifle."

Man, that was verbose. I do ramble on. Sorry. :D
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Post by G Van Horne »

Hi, acrosome... I agree with most of what you say. I believe accuracy, when talking about SMG's, is not a big selling point. They were good for close combat and laying down quick return fire.
Of all the mentioned smgs, I kind of like the sten. Especially for house clearing.. throw in a couple of grenades... and then throw in the sten..
Later
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General Mayhem
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Post by General Mayhem »

Originally posted by acrosome:

Overall, I think that the Sten was the engineering success story of the warMan, that was verbose. I do ramble on. Sorry. :D

I'm not sure is it engineering success is
if it is not realiable. What I've heard
of Sten, is that it far too easily jammed.

Atleast those that Finnish army has had.
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Post by sinner »

To Tombstone, Mucius, Tropie:

Yes, Sturmgewehr was originally designated as "Machine Pistol". But it was a truly assault riffle.

After 1943, Wehrmacht soldiers wanted weapons with a higher ROF, like the Soviet SMGs. Mostly, they were fighting at close ranges. Well, lower ranges than at the start of the war, like cities and non-flat areas. So they wanted a weapon able to put lotsa bullets at the enemy in little time.

Hitler was against it (as always. thanks God he alwas messe up the good projects, so now we are free :)

But the troops really wanted and needed that weapon. Then, the General who aws in charge of the procurement and building of military stuff (was it von Manstein by then? Or someother "too good a General" that Hitler removed from the front line and sent it back to Germany?).

Anyway, this guy really knew about combat and was bright. So he asked Hitler to produce a machine pistol for the panzer crews. Hitler approved that MP.

Of course, this was the Sturmgewehr, and it was sent to front-line troops. The soldiers liked it very much. They made good se of it.

When Hitler knew about the trick, he got furious. Nevertheless, he also learnt that the troops were using it and were very happy. So he stopped whinning.


Hope you like this little piece of history :)
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Greenlake
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Post by Greenlake »

The Beretta 38/42 SMG. Not well known, but it was a hell of a gun.
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Post by troopie »

There was a select fire version of the M1 carbine called the M2. It jammed like a baster and burned barrels like braai coals but it did the job. I read on one of these forums that someone's father had the job of converting M1s to M2s in WW2.

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panda124c
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Post by panda124c »

Originally posted by Mike Rothery:
I love the talk about the "mystical" stopping power of the .45 ACP cartridge, which has been proven beyond doubt to be a really poor performer in its military full metal jacket guise......short range curve, poor penetration, low energy transfer.
Ok I'll bite, Low energy transfer???? all of the energy from the .45 is transfered because of the 'poor penetration' we are not talking about a .357 Mag which has penetration that causes it to exit the back side of the target with lots and lots of energy left. The precentage of energy transfer from a .45 is 100%. There are two ways to get high energy, one is a light slug moving very fast the other is a heavy slug moving slowly. The .45 was designed as a large slug moving slowly so that it would not penetrate completly through the target thus imparting all of it's energy into the target. :p
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Post by panda124c »

Originally posted by Rundstedt:
A friend of mine began an argument about the best SMG during the war. I think it was the Russian one (don't have the time to look uo the name, you Pppshhsps or somehting), and he claims the Thompson was better. I then told him it actually depended on what situation you were planning to use it. He wouldn't listen. What's you opinion? And I would be really happy if you said I was right. :D

Regards, Rundstedt
The best one is the one in your hand when you need it. :D

Actually if you look into the history of the SMG you will find that they were all designed for the same purpose. The difference you see is due to manufacturing ability and phylosipy.

German - fine machine, close tolerence, fine workmanship -

American - sloppy tolerences to work in dirty conditions, no expense spared, good workmaship -

Russian - cheap (poor workmaship but it works good), easy to use, easy to manufacture (anybody can build one)-

British -cheap (uses the enemy's ammo), easy and fast to manufacture, workmanship unimportant (it works)

boy this should get me in hot water :D
Gen. Maczek
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Post by Gen. Maczek »

Originally posted by pbear:

Actually if you look into the history of the SMG you will find that they were all designed for the same purpose. The difference you see is due to manufacturing ability and phylosipy.

German - fine machine, close tolerence, fine workmanship -

American - sloppy tolerences to work in dirty conditions, no expense spared, good workmaship -

Russian - cheap (poor workmaship but it works good), easy to use, easy to manufacture (anybody can build one)-

British -cheap (uses the enemy's ammo), easy and fast to manufacture, workmanship unimportant (it works)

boy this should get me in hot water :D
The bottom line is this...Get all these SMG's together, submerge them in a muddy puddle, kick them about, throw them, use them as clubs, freeze them, boil them, throw them off a cliff...etc etc
I would bet my last penny, that the Soviet made PPSh and perhaps the Suomi would be the only ones still capable of blazing away after this treatment...And in the end, thats all that counts.
Regards.
Gen. Maczek

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: Gen. Maczek ]
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