new wargame "War across the Pacific 1941-1945"

[Hertston]

At least you have your priorities right.

I tried the demo for American Civil War: Gettysburg. Whoever wrote the graphics engine for that should win an award, it looks fabulous, but unfortunately his colleagues seem to have forgotten to add a game to it.

[Platoonist]

Another thing I suppose game developers have to think about from a graphics standpoint is that if the historical accuracy and good gameplay are present and the art files are accessible, then game aficionados out there will start modding and refining them to their heart's content and share them with the game community. Sometimes the results can be rather mixed but I've seen that a lot with some Matrix titles and the HPS/Tiller games.

However good graphics & box art up front have always gone a long way in selling a game since you usually can't test things like playability and accuracy and the quality of the AI before you buy.

[ravinhood]

If that would be true the me personally would be a rich man. Care to provide proof for your broad statement?

I guess you guys problem Marc is you're trying to "keep up with the Jones of the mainstream gaming industy" and with a niche market like wargaming, that's where you put too much into graphics, waste resources, when you could just put out mediocre graphics, open that part of the game up to modding and let the modders create the better graphics for the games at no cost to you. HPS does this rather nicely. For those that want them there's already some graphics updates by modders to some of their games.

Most wargamers (I know myself anyway), hardly care about the graphics of most of your types of games. Oh BIN and KP and BII has some pretty graphics, but, for me it is not a selling point. The gameplay is along with the price. Hexes are hexes, counters are counters, prettying them up is just fluff, does nothing for strategy or tactics of the game.
But, if you want to pretty them up for $29.99, well then of course I have no issues with that.

Now, Tin Soldiers series, since it is depicting a minatures type of game and not a hexed based/counter based type wargame, well certainly I can see graphics time being taken on a game series like that, but, every single game with fluff just isn't necessary in my book.

But, of course it's you guys company, I'm sure you will do as you think and not as I think.

I believe the CMX2 series has the right idea and setup for their next edition of the series. One model that many different types of wargames can be produced from within 6 to 8 months. Pretty good idea.

Cut the graphics and you can cut your budget, release the graphics artists, well most of them, you're one aren't you? hehe Let them go back to painting seashells by the seashore like the old artists used to. lol

[rhondabrwn]

Most wargamers (I know myself anyway), hardly care about the graphics of most of your types of games. Oh BIN and KP and BII has some pretty graphics, but, for me it is not a selling point. The gameplay is along with the price. Hexes are hexes, counters are counters, prettying them up is just fluff, does nothing for strategy or tactics of the game.

Perhaps your point may be true for the hard core gamers who frequent discussion boards like this one, but I hardly think that your point is valid for the general gaming population. Graphics do matter to a lot of us. Not that I won't buy a great game with dated grahics, but only if I've read a lot of very favorable reviews about it (and probably after considerable thought). I initially dismissed UV and WiTP when I discovered Matrix because of the graphics. I bought it only after reading reports of the richness of the game play, the depth and complexity, and various AAR's that got me caught up in the game. KP and BiN were easy calls because they had great reviews and looked great as well.

As to waiting for modders to do the graphics work, I have to believe that only a minority of game owners go to the trouble of modding their games and that isn't a universal panacea for the general gaming public - only for the dedicated few who haunt the forums and seem to spend all of their waking hours on gaming.

In rememberance of the late, great Redmond Simonsen, I would like to acknowledge that he set the standards for gaming graphics back at SPI in the 70's and 80's. He felt that graphics, first and foremost, had to support the game mechanics. We should never lose sight of that priority and he resisted the impulses to hype the graphics just for appearance's sake. One notable example was his insistence on matte finish counters when many wanted the glossy Avalon Hill style. Redmond correctly assessed that glossy counters resulted in a reflection that hindered readability and that inks tended to smear on glossy counters. SPI took a lot of heat from the crowd who loved to caress their shiny black SS counters as they made tank noises and screamed pseudo german expressios. [;)] but Redmond always stood by his principles.

No, I wouldn't start firing the grahics department quite yet!

[Panzeh]

A box with the unit's abbreviation is good enough.

They are doing the KOEI-style brick system(which is the same thing as hexes), which IMO looks better than hexes, but worse than any tiled map superimposed over a nice-looking picture map.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

If that would be true the me personally would be a rich man. Care to provide proof for your broad statement?

I guess you guys problem Marc is you're trying to "keep up with the Jones of the mainstream gaming industy" and with a niche market like wargaming, that's where you put too much into graphics, waste resources, when you could just put out mediocre graphics, open that part of the game up to modding and let the modders create the better graphics for the games at no cost to you. HPS does this rather nicely. For those that want them there's already some graphics updates by modders to some of their games.

Most wargamers (I know myself anyway), hardly care about the graphics of most of your types of games. Oh BIN and KP and BII has some pretty graphics, but, for me it is not a selling point. The gameplay is along with the price. Hexes are hexes, counters are counters, prettying them up is just fluff, does nothing for strategy or tactics of the game.
But, if you want to pretty them up for $29.99, well then of course I have no issues with that.


But, of course it's you guys company, I'm sure you will do as you think and not as I think.

BS, if we would like to keep up with the "rest" of the industry then we would need a way bigger budget. What we do here is extremly economic. I don´t see that much publishers / developers that bring 2 games per month to the public with such a minimal artist staff. Why is this so? Because I can (have to) make compromises. I woud love to have shader technology like on latest "Splinter Cell" for some of our games. As long as the gameplay isn´t affected there´s absolutly NO reason why you shouldn´t fancy up the graphics. You know, I can´t code - I can paint, so I´m (and the other artists) not a waste of ressources since I can´t help out the coders [;)].

If we would follow your model of "release with crap graphics and let modders "spice it up"" then you would really save money big time within half of a year. Cause only from the business we get from hardcore guys like you we can´t pay our bills.

But we have allready discussed this so many times on this very board. I don´t need another discussion on this and why good graphics (at least at some quality standard) are essential for sales. Buy the product or not, it´s absolutly your descission as customer.


My questions still stands. How about proof for your statement, that better graphics made our games more expensive?

[Marc von Martial]

Just FYI, on the DB series from SSG there´s one single artist, Steve Ford, doing all the work for the gamegraphics. I can´t imagine how to cut this down even more.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

Just FYI, on the DB series from SSG there´s one single artist, Steve Ford, doing all the work for the gamegraphics. I can´t imagine how to cut this down even more.

Make him sit and work in a closed dumpster; no expenses for electric lights and air conditioning. [:)]

[Fred98]

For those who say graphics don't matter, here is Raging Tiger by Shrapnel Games.

There is a demo and the game-play is apparrantly OK but the graphics are so poor I could not be bothered with the demo.


Be thankfull for nice graphics.

[Arckon]

Geez, sorry Marc,
must admit haven't seen this discussion on the board before, and my previous comment was directed at growing the market generally.

Again sorry though.

[wodin]

Joe 98,

I have to admit that tht particular series of games looks so bad I dont know how anyone can sit through it.

[ravinhood]

My questions still stands. How about proof for your statement, that better graphics made our games more expensive?

I still stick to "time to produce and code graphics" increase the cost of the game, they have to pay somebody to do those graphics, if they don't have to pay them, cost is less, less cost means more income. I'm not buying "artistry" when I buy a wargame. I'm buying a "game" not a picture to hang on my wall. One thing you can't prove, nor I, is that if you just put mediocre graphics for games such as KP, BIN, BII etc. that you wouldn't sell as many games as you already have. I personally don't think the KIDDIES or the mainstream customers are buying your products anyway. One has to be a wargamer or pretty interested in the genre to purchase these types of games in the first place. And even when I was just 12 years old, it wasn't the graphics that I bought the games for it was the "imagination" of being the commander of the scenario or battles.

We can take for example a game like Civil War:Battle for Bull Run, there's really nothing spectacular there in the graphics department, but, it has some qualities of the Total War series in detail, yet, $19.99 for that game. So, if graphics time isn't costing you guys any money, then why are your games so expensive compared to others of like kind eh? AGW coming soon, has equally as good graphics as your SSG titles, yet, $29.99 for three theaters of operation, not just one at a time at $50 a pop. HPS titles $29.99, just amazes me all these other sources of wargames can sell them so reasonably and Matrixgames has this "richness" in pricing in most of their newest releases. $80 for WitP is rediculous to me. So you're telling me the coding alone for just the gameplay is worth $80? Did it have 6 million lines of code like Rome Total War did that sold for $24.95?? I will admit you have some "reasonbably" priced games. The Tin Soldiers series and of course Slitherines series of titles. But, what I would call your "mainstream" titles are much too much to the extreme in pricing compared to other like games from other sources as HPS and now Madminute games.

So you tell me what constitutes your higher prices for your mainstream games vs these other computer wargame outlet sources?

[Hanal]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Joe 98,

I have to admit that tht particular series of games looks so bad I dont know how anyone can sit through it.

It's a good thing the graphic was labeled AMMO DUMP as I thought I was looking at an open spiral notebook......

[Arckon]

Ravinhood said,

HPS titles $29.99, just amazes me all these other sources of wargames can sell them so reasonably

HPS sells there titles from there shop for $39.95 intro offer 1st mnth aprox on release and then goes up to normal price of $49.99.

I mentioned AGW because I think that is the increase in graphics on release of a new product to help grow the genre to newer customers. I'm not suggesting the very latest 'my god look at that' type graphics increase. I still play plenty of old turn based wargames with old graphics and does not bother me.

I believe (and can be corrected here) that AGW graphics are done by Rons wife. If such a small hobbiest team can do that why not all developers. Developers like SSG, Schwerpunkt should be applauded for increasing the graphical presentation of such high quality playable games. Granted AGW is not out yet but am basing this on RGW that will be a quality play.

Again my comment was directed at helping to bring new players into such a niche market, and newer customers are going to be younger and they do care more about graphics.

For the record I am not much younger than you but do like to look ahead at the big picture, not just have an 'I'm alright jack' type outlook.

[Marc von Martial]

Ravinhood, if been tru this a few times allready. It´s senseless, even more with those made up prices you tag. You may have the last word if you like.

[ravinhood]

Ravinhood, if been tru this a few times allready. It´s senseless, even more with those made up prices you tag. You may have the last word if you like.

http://www.naval-warfare.net/build/stor ... e/shrapnel

Just goto the above site and click on the HPS SIMULATIONS tab to the left. Made up prices they are not. Every HPS title is $29.99 (So, if you're paying $49.99 for HPS games then you obviously haven't been researching the actual prices they are available).

Spartan & Gates of Troy when released were $29.99

You can also use that same weblink and find the Schwerpunkt games for $29.99

And you can also use that same weblink for Shrapnel games at the $31.99/$32.99 price range.

And two weeks after the release of RTW, it was $24.95 on ebay "shipped". I know, I have a copy, and it's not from Thailand/Taiwan, came with English manual, boxed, etc. etc. Bought it right here in the states and it was delivered within three days.

Nosir, I don't give out "madeup prices" I can backup any price I list here. If anything I do my homework before buying a game and get it at the least expensive price.

Gogamer is another source that I use, and they have 48 hour madness sales quite often with $5 to $10 savings on newly released software. Many of those titles as well during the sale are $29.99.

[Marc von Martial]

You compare a 3rd party retailer and Ebay price to our first party price ??? Man how screwed is that? You must compare HPS`s first party price (which is 49.95 for your standard game) to our price to make your point valid.

If anything I do my homework before buying a game and get it at the least expensive price.

You should also do your homework when you want to make points.

Other then that you still havn´t provided proof that our games got more expensive because we make the grpahics spicier.

As I sayed earlier , it´s senseless.

[bradclark1]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

For those who say graphics don't matter, here is Raging Tiger by Shrapnel Games.

There is a demo and the game-play is apparrantly OK but the graphics are so poor I could not be bothered with the demo.


Be thankfull for nice graphics.

Did you zoom in at all. The graphics change. Looks like you are on full zoom out.

Brad

[Fred98]

How can I zoom in on a screen shot?

If you have the game, please post a screen shot.

[bradclark1]

Hah, I thought you got that off their demo's.
I'll see if I can figure out how to post a screenshot.

Brad