Matrix and no shop sales policy

[jungelsj_slith]

This has got to be the single most bizarre discussion I've ever been a part of. You just continually ignore what it is that I'm saying over, and over, and over. I feel like a little kid by even being a part of it. Nevermind! Direct download sucks! Burn the place down! [:@]

[rhondabrwn]

Ravinhood, I hate to tell you this, but some of us use our broadband internet connections for a lot more than downloading a couple of games! Your example of saving the money spent on a DSL connection to buy more games in traditional non-DD channels, is a very false economy.

BTW... these days I buy everything via the Internet... games, clothes, printer supplies, books and so forth. Other than food and groceries, there isn't much I buy in the brick and mortar world these days. I made a special effort to go buy WaW in the store to help support Matrix in their effort to attract new blood to the hobby, but other than a few bargain bin titles I'm strictly internet (and terribly frustrated by companies like HPS who don't offer DD). I'm spoiled... I want instant gratification!

As far as retail sales are concerned, I note that PC games keep getting pushed farther and farther back into a dark corner of the retail stores. I think the day will soon come when finding PC software on a store rack will be really difficult. It will all be game console software. Perhaps Matrix needs to start developing PSP versions of it's products? [;)]

When it comes to attracting new customers to Matrix, I don't think the answer is in storefront sales. If you are at all in to wargaming (and gaming in general), you are going to be visiting game review sites like Happy Puppy, GameSpy, FilePlanet and all of the others. Advertising on these sites is the key to drawing new wargamers into the Matrix family (along with gaining favorable reviews of your products). Do you really think that eliminating storefront wargame sales will be the deathknell of the hobby? I think you let your own personal preferences color your perception of the marketplace. I have no doubt that every serious computer user will have a broadband internet connection within the next 5 to 10 years. I also suspect that for a large number of people, internet phone service will also become a reality, further enhancing the numbers of online broadband users.

No, I think Matrix is on track with future developments. Going back to the glory days of storefront game sales isn't a viable option. I suspect that HPS and Shrapnel will get on the DD bandwagon eventually also. I recently bought the Gettysburg Campaign from HPS, had to wait 10 days for it to get here, didn't get a manual anyway, nor a box, only a CD in a case. Love the game and would probably want their new Shiloh Campaign if I could DD it for $10 off. As it is, I'll probably wait and spend my money on Matrix titles instead.

Wow... what a rant! [:D]

Keep it up Matrix! I think you guys are on a roll (and thanks for the $19.95 Sparta DD!). In the future, I'd love to see some "non-mainstream" titles eventually moved into an electronic DD bin for $10 - $15 after a couple of years. I like picking up old titles that just never tickled my fancy enough to pay full price, but which I'd still like to sample for a reduced price.

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: molotov_billy

This has got to be the single most bizarre discussion I've ever been a part of. You just continually ignore what it is that I'm saying over, and over, and over. I feel like a little kid by even being a part of it. Nevermind! Direct download sucks! Burn the place down! [:@]

There are a few guys who are always on an anti-Matrix rant about something [:D] It often makes for interesting and wildly free-flowing discussions. They serve a purpose in the forum. Everyone has to keep their cool and don't take anything too personally. Remember, your points are being made to a lot of forum readers and whether the specific poster you are responding to addresses them is often irrelevant.

My comments are always addressed to the larger audience (and to Matrix... they do listen to what's being said). I'm always campaigning for the $19.95 download, for example.

I've enjoyed your commentary, keep it up!

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

The statement that I asked you to backup is why would the option of direct download hurt the game industry?

The "OPTION" of direct download/direct sales wouldn't hurt the industry at all, it's the fact with Matrixgames there is NO OPTION. Direct download/direct sales "only" will reduce sales, eventually that consumer market will deminish of the fanbase with reletively very few newcomers to it. There will be no growth in it. Reduced sales in "volume" will net more profit for awhile, but, not at an increased population. The consumer moves along to other avenues of entertainment and direct download only will effect this type of industry. If you can't grasp the future in "volume" sales, then I can't say anymore. Volume sales will increase population and exposure, direct download/direct sales without an option to buy retail will decrease them.

Let's see if I can give figures that you can comprehend better.

100 people buy retail sales merchandise for $10 profit for the industry

10 people buy direct download/direct sales for a $30 profit. (Only 10 people are aware of the direct download of the product and the website).

So there you have it, where your game could have been exposed to 100 people it was only exposed to 10. Population decrease. Even if only 2% of that 100 might have bought the title that is an increase in the population of 2% (2 people), it's a plus, without it, there will be the same 10 people buying the product and a 2% increase by word of mouth from this fanbase isn't even 1 extra person added to the population of the genre. You would need an increase of 10% from those 10 people just to add 1 new person to the genre.

So, you can have a $1000 profit and increased exposure and volume and population or you can just cater to a select few 10 and have a $300 profit. Matrixgames falls into that catagory, for every 100 buyers of mainstream titles on retail shelves they may be lucky to have 10 for this genre. Probably more closer to 1 or even less.

Matrixgames must rely on that fanbase to maintain the same level over the years, but, without exposure the % chance of that happening may deminish as well. They must rely by word of mouth and "new comers" to wargaming entering the genre as fast as the older fans are leaving it. Everyone that plays a wargame doesn't always stay a wargamer. I certainly haven't. Though I will still play them, they certainly don't have the appeal they once had because they are the same thing over and over. The other thing about the genre it gets stuck in a rut of producing too many sameish titles. So, when I meet a newcomer to the wargaming genre what do you think I'm going to tell them? I will suggest the safest and most secure means of entering it, if they want to delve into the insecurities of the internet, I'll leave that up to them. Basically I will use a board wargame as a model for entering wargaming before using the computer.

And then you have the fanbase that won't buy "every" game produced by the company in the first place. So your fanbase 10 can be reduced by 50% or better on various titles. But, without increased population and exposure, it will never go past those 10 fans total to their games. And as the years go by the fanbase could even deminish even more to 8, 6, 5. It's well known the wargaming genre isn't the most popular, and even board wargames are more popular than computer ones still.

Now can you see the difference?

You are mistaken when you assume that a storefront browser who picks up a wargame because of the cool cover art is going to become a dedicated wargamer. A more likely scenario is that they will be totally overwhelmed by the complexity of the genre and the intellectual capacity needed to play these games. I suspect that most people who bought WaW in the store did so because they went looking for the title after reading a review or seeing some online discussion. A few probably bought it because it looked like "Axis and Allies", but only a few and most of them were probably just confused by it. To argue that the future of the hobby depends on flooding storefronts with wargames is way off the mark.

Instead, the Internet and online sales are the future. You really need to get past your personal preferences to see that. If you don't buy a great game because it's DD in a fit of pique, you are only hurting yourself and your crusade isn't going to stop the inevitable.

But then, won't it be fun when we're both on Social Security and you get to say "I told you so" as the wargame hobby collapses into nothingness? [:D][:D][:D]

[ravinhood]

But then, won't it be fun when we're both on Social Security and you get to say "I told you so" as the wargame hobby collapses into nothingness?

LOL, no not really, I don't want to see it collapse, I'm just suggesting that I as a wargamer of a sort am putoff by the direct download/direct sales "only" ideals being presented here. I am part of that "population of wargaming" I'm speaking about deminishing over the next few years.

If you begin to alienate your firm fanbase, you not only don't get any retail sales, but, you also begin losing your firm fanbase as well. As stated, we the forum members barely represent anything around here or anywhere for that matter. Matrixgames gets 10's of 1000's of sales, there's hardly an inkling of that that posts here. Perhaps their direct sales direct download market is sufficient atm. But, the question still remains, will it be 5, 10, 15 years from now or will it just fade away like so many others over the years? As an American I believe in "choice" and the "freedom to choose", that's our heritage, our constitutional rights. So, I choose not to support direct sales/direct download as an only means to continue my hobby, which as a whole is "gaming", not necessarily just war(gaming).

I speak as one here, but, as is normally the case where there is one there is 10 and where there is 10 there is 100, etc. etc. If I'm not happy with the purchasing options, I'm sure there are others as well and even others that like me until 2 years ago, don't even know about Matrixgames. I look for where I have "options", no genre "owns" me so to speak. I'm not missing out on anything, if I'm not interested in the first place or don't even know about the game company. It just means I will funnel my own entertainment dollars into something else, another company, like Activision who put Civil War:Battle of Bull Run on the shelf at $19.99 also I might add and it's a remarkable game for the price and easily sufficient to satisfy my wargaming needs.

Also a note rhondabrwn, it was at Treasure City in a small town in Texas that I bought my first wargame, it wasn't direct sales, wasn't from some flyer in the mail, but, was something that "caught my eye" after being introduced to a game in school. So, while you suggest that nobody is going to be interested in the wargame genre because of some flashy art on the box or thinking the game is too complex without even looking at it, I will disagree here, the imagination and intelligence of some of our youth is brighter than you may think. A flashy box with some wargame graphics on it nowadays, most especially since most all RTS games and FPSers have moved to WWII in general, would surely catch the eyes of some just as well as the others will and have.

At 12/13 years old the youth is more prone to try "many" things instead of just sticking to one genre, my son and nephew are prime examples of that as I have seen them swing from platform games, to beatemup games, to FPSers to RTS to turn based, to strategy, to wargames, to rpgs and there and back again several times over their years. Eventually they will find their genres of choice, but, at 12/13 the sky is the limit as long as it has "game" in the title. This I've seen from first hand experience and having the library to watch them move from one to the other and finding their niche.

[Reiryc]

LOL, no not really, I don't want to see it collapse, I'm just suggesting that I as a wargamer of a sort am putoff by the direct download/direct sales "only" ideals being presented here. I am part of that "population of wargaming" I'm speaking about deminishing over the next few years.

Aren't you the one that buys the vast majority of your games through ebay these days?

[Montbrun]

Direct Download is actually saving us money. If Matrix were forced to "buy shelfspace" in your local software store, we'd be paying $10-$20, or more, per game. Matrix is in a "niche" market. The only way that Matrix, and other small developer/publishers can stay in business, is to maximize their returns, in order to be able to produce more "niche" market products. Hell, I like to be able to have immediate gratification by downloading a game from my computer.....

Brad

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Direct Download is actually saving us money. If Matrix were forced to "buy shelfspace" in your local software store, we'd be paying $10-$20, or more, per game. Matrix is in a "niche" market. The only way that Matrix, and other small developer/publishers can stay in business, is to maximize their returns, in order to be able to produce more "niche" market products. Hell, I like to be able to have immediate gratification by downloading a game from my computer.....

Brad

Thats odd as Matrix always says the games are still highly priced as its no cheaper going through Digital River.

[superdave56]

I just want to say, as a loyal customer of matrix who has bought and enjoyed several games via DD - I love it. I can order the game, download it and be playing it in a few minutes. These are niche games - they are never going to have the base to be in Walmart or EB which are the only outlets many Americans like myself (who live in a small town) have access to in the physical world.

The fact is I would not have bought the game at all if it weren't for DD and I wish other publishers would adopt the same policy.

EB, et al. are stocking mostly console games and mass market PC games. Great games like CoG are not going to get shelf space at these outlets unless they stand to sell 10000s of copies and that just isn't going to happen with wargames. Turn based wargames will never be mass market, and I don't want them to be mass market. I find Doom XXXIII and Half-Life 74 to be boring rehash which were really cool when I was about 15 - much like popular music and movies. Mass market = Lowest Common Denominator. I prefer not to waste my time or money.


My only alternative would be to buy through Amazon or some other online retailer, wait days and pay extra for shipping, etc. Frankly that's too much hassle for me. I love the DD option and I probably would never have heard of these games, let alone bought them if they were not available from download from Matrix. Matrix does it right, too - no stupid DRM or phoning home to "verify" a la Windows XP - just type in a serial and away you go.

By the way, don't most of the games come with an option for ordering a physical CD? Fantasizing about wargames being stocked in every Walmart is just that, fantasy. Its not going to happen except maybe in a couple of very rare cases - so its DD direct distribution or no game at all. Take your pick.

Besides, why should Walmart make all the cash while the devs get 5 cents a copy? That's the same sort of thing that's killing the music biz. Alternate channels of distribution away from the retail big hit mentality means more and better choices for consumers. Games or other creative endeavors that would never have seen the light of day can get directly to those who will appreciate and pay for them.

All hail Digital Download!!!!!

[Erik Rutins]

There are some incorrect assumptions here. Suffice it to say that going to retail is no longer a solution and while digital downloads are not cheap, for a company our size retail is even more expensive for us and our customers. The retail market for PC games has changed from day to night in the last ten years. I don't have time to post more, but based on numbers and analyses I have seem, we are definitely heading in the right direction.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: superdave56

I just want to say, as a loyal customer of matrix who has bought and enjoyed several games via DD - I love it. I can order the game, download it and be playing it in a few minutes. These are niche games - they are never going to have the base to be in Walmart or EB which are the only outlets many Americans like myself (who live in a small town) have access to in the physical world.



All hail Digital Download!!!!!

Ive no problem with DD in itself. Its a great idea. However there are certain games being developed that I truely believe will attract new wargamers to the fold. Those who are maybe a bit younger who browse around. They see CoG. Have played maybe Imperial Glory ormaybe the RTW mod. Infact they may have enjoyed the RTW game and are on the path to becoming a wargamer. They see the CoG box. Read the back see the screenshots and purchase.

Its a good game so they may check out Matrix webiste. The the world is their oyster. We must remember that not every wargamer knows about Matrix and there is new blood out there. My local Wargaming club many have no idea that you can buy PC wargames!

All Im saying is somegames (not all) may help the hobby by being on the shop floor.

[jungelsj_slith]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Ive no problem with DD in itself. Its a great idea. However there are certain games being developed that I truely believe will attract new wargamers to the fold. Those who are maybe a bit younger who browse around. They see CoG. Have played maybe Imperial Glory ormaybe the RTW mod. Infact they may have enjoyed the RTW game and are on the path to becoming a wargamer. They see the CoG box. Read the back see the screenshots and purchase.

Its a good game so they may check out Matrix webiste. The the world is their oyster. We must remember that not every wargamer knows about Matrix and there is new blood out there. My local Wargaming club many have no idea that you can buy PC wargames!

All Im saying is somegames (not all) may help the hobby by being on the shop floor.

I agree. It appears that's what matrix is doing - it seems that if a title has a chance at making it on the retail market, they put it out. Games that probably don't have a chance are DD only, which is fine.

I really like what matrix is doing here, to be honest. A central place where I can find just about everything to do with PC wargames - purchasing, updating, discussion all in one site/place.

[JosephL]

Hello everyone,

This enquiry falls into my ballpark of knowledge and really is my job.

First of all, I love the spread of ideas and really enjoy any conversation that relates to the game industry's marketing methodology. Wodin brings up a point that is made by industry veterans as well as newcomers, it is a well argued topic amongst industry leaders and today the direction that each company is selecting will inevitably determine live or die. IE: Most PC Game publishers are scared out of their wits. Most are adopting strategies to cope with a rapidly changing market that range from getting out of PC games entirely to forming conglomerate companies that are inefficiently protected by sheer volume.

Now, the general formal discussion here is can retail sales cause enough new purchases to make the long term growth recieved from "new blood" out-profit the cost of doing business in retail.

The industry is faced with a very large problem though, falling retail sales at a rate of 10.8% per year! With each passing year this strategy of attracting new customers becomes less and less profitable and there is really no sign that this will change (in fact all signs are pointing to it getting much worse).

This doesn't mean World at War was NOT a success, it means that putting stock and store in retail for future products requires either a phenominal product or a strategy to ensure business will continue when this venue is entirely dried up (I give it about 5 more years before rock bottom).

So this is where I come in. I have implimented a new set of strategies in attracting "new blood." The general message Wodin is trying to get across is: How can we get new people into Matrix Games and into war gaming. This is a very noble thought (one I spend a lot of time thinking about). His solution of retail may not be the best solution, especially when you ask "What about 5 years from now." However, it is something we still keep in mind.

Meanwhile, here are some new strategies I am working on (and that Matrix is working on in general) that will achieve the same effect Wodin is looking for. I can't give away ALL our secrets... but have faith that we have neither abandoned retail nor abandoned seeking out new customers.

#1: Lock and Load- Hopefully the first of many board games. Board Games are an entirely new venue with a lot of people who enjoy these kinds of games but have no idea that they exist (or that they would enjoy a PC game). This will give us an opportunity to capture a very similar market.

#2: Local Targetting- There strangest thing about most Matrix Products are that they deal with real places, real times, and real people. My new focus is to continue getting major publication coverage but to move all emphasis on locating new coverage matter to local organizations. For instance I am attempting to work with the Napoleonic Society of America and Europe in getting people interested in Crown of Glory. I hope to use this methodology for all historic games, from the Cold War to Ancient Greece.

#3: Increased Cross-Selling- Hopefully as time goes by you will begin seeing some new things to help inform people what is new in Matrix Games. I won't reveal any details (since none are concrete at this time) but a simple example is the Matrix Catalogue being packed into each retail box of World at War and given away at the conventions we are attending. The objective here is to ensure that a "new" customer is not unaware of other like-minded products already or soon to be available.

There's plenty of new and innovative ideas out there. What I would rather see are some ideas from the players that go beyond the retail mentality. It isn't about escaping the evils of retail, that is silly propeganda. It is about coming up with something more efficient than retail (at the expense of my free time no doubt!) that hasn't been done because prior to this there wasn't a NEED to do it. When the retail well is dry I intend to ensure Matrix Games still has plenty of untapped potential in other locations

-Joe

[KG Erwin]

Joe, I had the pleasure of talking to you at Origins (yeah, this is Glenn, the Marine fan) , and the basic problem is simply one of awareness---many prospective gamers have no clue that this company even exists. I saw the look of curiosity amongst some visitors at Origins ("Who Are These Guys With All The Cool Games?").

I belong to other military-related forums, and this helps to some extent. However, we must think of a better way to promote the games--word of mouth helps, but something is missing--I know that new genres are in the pipeline, but that's best for private conversation.

Advertsing on TV is expensive, but a well-developed promo for a showcase game might not be a bad idea. The base problem is intoducing niche products to the general public--Avalon Hill did this successfully back in the 60s by putting their advertisements in comic books--this strategy should not be ignored. This is exactly how I got hooked way back when. This is just brainstorming, so bear with me.

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: JosephL


#3: Increased Cross-Selling- Hopefully as time goes by you will begin seeing some new things to help inform people what is new in Matrix Games. I won't reveal any details (since none are concrete at this time) but a simple example is the Matrix Catalogue being packed into each retail box of World at War and given away at the conventions we are attending. The objective here is to ensure that a "new" customer is not unaware of other like-minded products already or soon to be available.

There's plenty of new and innovative ideas out there. What I would rather see are some ideas from the players that go beyond the retail mentality. It isn't about escaping the evils of retail, that is silly propeganda. It is about coming up with something more efficient than retail (at the expense of my free time no doubt!) that hasn't been done because prior to this there wasn't a NEED to do it. When the retail well is dry I intend to ensure Matrix Games still has plenty of untapped potential in other locations

-Joe

Just wanted to say that I was VERY IMPRESSED with that Matrix Catalog that I found in my WaW retail box! Any possibility of doing some mass mailing to selected lists of history and Sci-Fi buffs? That catalog could get anyone drooling if they enjoy history or Science Fiction. Maybe it could be a downloadable PDF file piggybacked onto the Sci-Fi Channel weekly newsletter? What about The History Channel website? A bit of advertising and a link to the PDF catalog?

Just thinking out loud...

[JosephL]

Keep the ideas flowing I'll read them all, I promise. I probably wont reply to them all though

Er and yeah, I think TV ads are out given a "not limitless" budget. I suppose if we really wanted to get the word out we would team up with that company that is designing a giant laser to plaster an advertisement as a reflection off the moon's surface (Seriously, someone is trying to do that).

Alternative "not realistic" ideas would be a ww2 style propeganda pamphlet dropping on major cities (and the 500 dollar litter fine that goes with it), sponsorship of the superbowl or olympics, and using a gigantic space-ship to burn advertisements into crop fields....

Yes, my brain is a scary place when it begins thinking of cool ways to promote things... but remember that the cost takes away from the objective

-Joe

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: JosephL

Board Games are an entirely new venue with a lot of people who enjoy these kinds of games but have no idea that they exist (or that they would enjoy a PC game). This will give us an opportunity to capture a very similar market.

I agree that board gaming is a great way to create synergy in marketing computer wargames. Eagle Games seems to have had some success with over-the-board versions of computer classics (Sid Meyer's Civ for example). Even while PC gaming is taking a hit, board gaming is surging.

I think DD is really great for gamers, because it increases the number and variety of games made available. Small companies can't afford to produce enough physical copies of a boxed game to make it on the shelves of a large retail outlet, and even a medium-sized company like Matrix can't get most of their games into stores. DD may help prevent big companies from using predatory pricing and slick packaging to force good games out of the market. Monopolies lead to mediocre (or even crappy) mainstream products. I am happy that the option exists for DD, and I accept that, for computer gaming, DD is probably the wave of the future.

[Rooster]

This is a real marketing challenge - you have my sympathy Joe!

Without the budget, it's going to have to be a grass roots sort of thing, with tons of fanboys fanning out in all directions to spread the word.

Would Matrix consider a referral system? You know: If I get four others to buy, Matrix gives me 10 bux off my next purchase or something like that?

[jungelsj_slith]

Cross selling is probably a huge plus for DD and the matrix site. Allthough at first I found it odd that a publisher would market so many games of the same type - in a sense you're competing against yourself for the same market. And yet, because I found the matrix site through the purchase of one game, I've gone on to purchasing many more that I hadn't known about.

I assume it's farily important that all of your games continue to get reviews on the big-name gaming sites - gamespot, etc. In that sense you're at least exposed to a wider non-wargamer market on the net.

[ravinhood]

Aren't you the one that buys the vast majority of your games through ebay these days?

You left out one word in that statement "crappy" or not worth retail dollars. Games like "Victoria" by Paradox, yes, ebay all the way, when one can get a fairly newly released game for a "penny", why pay $39.95 or more? All Paradox games rate this wait for ebay way now, not because of the gameplay, because of their production policy of "buy it now, we'll patch it later and in a year and a half it will be playable, but, will be a totally different game".

But, that subject is a whole other thread anyway, the "quality" of games and are they worth retail $$ in the first place.

I have bought "Guild Wars" recently, was worth every penny of the "retail" price. The game is FREE to play online like an mmorpg, but, more like an mmo, offers plenty of entertainment value, depth and longevity well worthy of the retail price tag. I also bought "all of the Combat Mission" series "retail" and it also is worth every penny of the retail price. This I cannot say about every game that is produced as a "wargame". I have bought the "Tin Soldiers" series from Matixgames through NWS at a retail price, another worthy series with a decent AO and something "different" in the way of era of a wargame, not a sequel or the same damn WW2 games I keep seeing way to much of.

If the AO is good, I'll pay retail $$ for it without question most of the time, problem is most of the AO's aren't worth a crap or basically the same just in a new title. If it's a repeat or a sequel of a game I already have, yes, I'll wait on ebay or amazon.com most of the time.

Oh and the other problem I have with direct download and even direct sales as far as Matrixgames is concerned is "lack of a manual" with either purchase. In the retail market I am guaranteed at least a nice printed manual to read where and when I wish. PDF files just don't cut it with me either. We pay more for less so to speak. With the "savings" Matrixgames have accomplished with direct download/direct sales they won't even spend a buck to give us a printed manual.

Also when I read posts like this one below, just confirms my beliefs about direct sales/direct download:

[OK, now I'm really upset. I checked order status just now and find out that the game is "backordered." Very nice...not!

I ordered it at noon on July 1st and I know people who ordered it the day before got it already...so I'm screwed? And my overnight UPS shipping is for nothing? And no cancellations? No order revisions? Why not give "backordered" customers the option of a cancellation?

Digital Ripper is truly disappointing; and Matrix: this is no way to treat a loyal customer. ]

The above story never happens in a "retail sale", product is right there on the shelf, there's no waiting, no fuss, instant satisfaction in the sale and receipt of goods.