IS A TANK IS A TANK IS A TANK?

[Tankerace]

Gimmie an M4A3E2(76)W, some sandbag armor, and some HVAP rounds and I'll bring you back a Tiger. (Tiger I.... just stressing that.... Tiger I)

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Gimmie an M4A3E2(76)W, some sandbag armor, and some HVAP rounds and I'll bring you back a Tiger. (Tiger I.... just stressing that.... Tiger I)

One of the main advantages you would enjoy is that your platoon (or company? whatever) could actually be expected to arrive without losing half their numbers to mechanical breakdowns after driving a couple hundred miles...[;)]

B

[Tom Hunter]

There is a book titled "Deathtraps" written by the man responsible for recovering and repairing the Shermans for one of the big US armored divisions in the ETO.

Before making comments about the positives and negatives of the Sherman you should read the book.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

There is a book titled "Deathtraps" written by the man responsible for recovering and repairing the Shermans for one of the big US armored divisions in the ETO.

Before making comments about the positives and negatives of the Sherman you should read the book.

Oh I've read many books on Shermans, you can't obsess on any particular tank being a death trap - any tank that gets KO'd becomes a potential death trap to the guys inside...not just a Sherman - we just hear more about it over here...

B

[Tankerace]

Well, before passing judgement, keep in mind in Africa the M3 Lee/Grant was a pretty good tank, Rommel sure spoke well of it (in the Rommel papers), but the Soviets called it a coffin for seven brothers.

Any tank can be a death trap. Though admittedly the Sherman more than others.

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

ORIGINAL: dereck

A Japanese tank compared to an American tank the way a Sherman tank compared to a Tiger - it was dead meat. If A Sherman tank was considered far superior to a Japanese tank that really can't say much for Japanese armor.

Watch out. There's a guy who reads these forums that swears that the Sherman is superior to the Tiger. (insert smiley here for ROTFLMAO). [:D]

Well, the run of the mill Medium M4A1(or 2,or 3,or 4 ) with a 75mm M3 gun - is no good bet one on one against a PZKW V, or VI (any mark).

But then 40,000 'Shermans' DID beat the Whermacht. When the war was over - we still had most our Shermans...the Germans didn't have but a tiny fraction of their panzers (and they weren't all KO'ed by the Air Force and the Russians).

Just to pour gasoline on the fire....

B

Yes we DID beat the Wehrmacht with 40,000 Shermans because we were able to sustain losing 4-5 Shermans per panzer taken out. The Sherman had a low-velocity 75mm gun that couldn't penetrate the panzers' armor and it was thinly armored compared to the German tanks but the Sherman crews learned to rely on tactics rather than superior firepower.

It wasn't really until the Pershing(?) arrived in the late part of the war that the Americans had a tank that could go one-on-one against a panzer and come out the victor.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: dereck

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn




Watch out. There's a guy who reads these forums that swears that the Sherman is superior to the Tiger. (insert smiley here for ROTFLMAO). [:D]

Well, the run of the mill Medium M4A1(or 2,or 3,or 4 ) with a 75mm M3 gun - is no good bet one on one against a PZKW V, or VI (any mark).

But then 40,000 'Shermans' DID beat the Whermacht. When the war was over - we still had most our Shermans...the Germans didn't have but a tiny fraction of their panzers (and they weren't all KO'ed by the Air Force and the Russians).

Just to pour gasoline on the fire....

B

Yes we DID beat the Wehrmacht with 40,000 Shermans because we were able to sustain losing 4-5 Shermans per panzer taken out. The Sherman had a low-velocity 75mm gun that couldn't penetrate the panzers' armor and it was thinly armored compared to the German tanks but the Sherman crews learned to rely on tactics rather than superior firepower.

It wasn't really until the Pershing(?) arrived in the late part of the war that the Americans had a tank that could go one-on-one against a panzer and come out the victor.

Isn't this graet![:D] Rehashing the campaign for northern Europe in 1944-1945 - on a Pacific War Forum!

Just to throw in my last two cents (of gasoline) ... I spent hundreds of dollars, and fifteen years of spare time researching the M3 & M4 Medium Tank series (and WWII tank combat in general)...there is very little I haven't learned about them.

To sum up - they were fine against PZ IVs, IIIs, and the like. It only became appearant that their main defficiency - gunpower - was a problem in the Northern European campaign...the last 11 months of the war.

Only the Panthers anf Tigers exacted an exchange rate of "as many as" 4 or 5 to one when support was unavailable. The rest is mostly 'urban legend'.

The Sherman was not perfect, but neither was ANY tank of that war. And it is self evident that the lingering stories of the imperfections of the Sherman show how we westerners obsess on the last 11 months of the war - as if the prior 5 years never happened or weren't worth mentioning.

B

[Tom Hunter]

Just read the book, there is no human being with more experience repairing Shermans than this guy. I did not call them Deathtraps, the author did.

One other thing in the book. His division had all the Pershings in Germany in the later part of the war. There were 3.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Just read the book, there is no human being with more experience repairing Shermans than this guy. I did not call them Deathtraps, the author did.

One other thing in the book. His division had all the Pershings in Germany in the later part of the war. There were 3.

Tom, in the interest of fair play and tranquility - I will find the book and read it. (ok?[;)])

(but I will just add ...that I was so absolutely obsessed with THIS subject - to the point of talking to tank experts from Europe, having my congressman get the US Army to send me their own studies and data on the M4 medium series, and going to the university to check out books on the physics of armor and armor penetration - I'm honestly not expecting to find much new...BUT - SALUTE! my friend!)[:)]

B

[Nikademus]

I've seen that book several times....thought about picking it up. Maybe next time. (currently reading "Zero!")

Tom's mention of this book i'd think would act like water more than gasoline. Its one thing to sit on an Internet forum, safe and sound and argue who's tank was better than what or which tank was better for the war effort etc etc. If your the one sitting in the tank having to fight in it.....you might have a different perspective.

I think it took alot of guts to be an Allied tank driver....knowing you were vulnerable, thinking every enemy tank was a Tiger. I think I will pick up this book next. (well after Shores...)

sorry.....usually i'm all for lighthearted banter.....every once in a while though the human element hits home in the subject we all like to discuss/argue/whatever.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I've seen that book several times....thought about picking it up. Maybe next time. (currently reading "Zero!")

Tom's mention of this book i'd think would act like water more than gasoline. Its one thing to sit on an Internet forum, safe and sound and argue who's tank was better than what or which tank was better for the war effort etc etc. If your the one sitting in the tank having to fight in it.....you might have a different perspective.

I think it took alot of guts to be an Allied tank driver....knowing you were vulnerable, thinking every enemy tank was a Tiger. I think I will pick up this book next. (well after Shores...)

sorry.....usually i'm all for lighthearted banter.....every once in a while though the human element hits home in the subject we all like to discuss/argue/whatever.

Hello Nik! [:)]Glad you joined in on this.
Yes - the human element deffinately hits home with me on this subject.

Did I say clearly in my previous posts that the M4 Sherman was not a better tank than the Tiger or Panther? Because let me be clear - the M4 Sherman was not a better tank than the Tiger or Panther in a straight on shoot out - no illusions here.

I was merely saying there is a lot of misunderstanding about the value and capabilities of M3s and M4s in general.

Ok...back to the paint shop[8D]

B

[Nikademus]

Hello B of Big B.... [;)]

Did I say clearly in my previous posts that the M4 Sherman was not a better tank than the Tiger or Panther? Because let me be clear - the M4 Sherman was not a better tank than the Tiger or Panther in a straight on shoot out - no illusions here.

I wasn't commenting on any one person's postings tank vs tank....just making a point about the human element and how that might impact one's judgement.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Hello B of Big B.... [;)]

Did I say clearly in my previous posts that the M4 Sherman was not a better tank than the Tiger or Panther? Because let me be clear - the M4 Sherman was not a better tank than the Tiger or Panther in a straight on shoot out - no illusions here.

I wasn't commenting on any one person's postings tank vs tank....just making a point about the human element and how that might impact one's judgement.

Amen to that!

Since I'm in such a gabby mood tonight, I would like to add one totally irrelevant point-
I love this forum! [:D] It is so refreshing to be able to communicate with people who have 'like' interests and knowledge...in a world of the mundane!

Can't beat that!

B

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Just to throw in my last two cents (of gasoline)

That ain't much these days! [:D]

[Nikademus]

Gas in Oahu was a nightmare. Never thought i'd pay $3.60 per gallon.

yikes

[Terminus]

Well, isn't Hawai'i officially the most expensive state in the Union?

[Nikademus]

Dont know about that. All i know is the gas sure is..... [X(]

Good thing a trip around the island only takes an afternoon... [:D]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, isn't Hawai'i officially the most expensive state in the Union?

I dunno about officially, but if it isn't it is right up there. Gas and food are expensive, and housing prices seem to have about tripled (at least on Big Island) in the past 2-3 years. Taxes are very high. Of course, they make up for it with high unemployment!![8|][:'(]

Most of the agriculture (cane, pineapple) has folded up (yes, there are still both there, but in far lesser roles.) Tourism is the main industry, of course. Lots of the jobs there are relatively low paying.

[Nikademus]

Odd about the unemployment, given that Oahu is, according the papers, suffering a severe labor shortage. Supported in the field by a flurry of "now hiring" signs. Everywhere we went.....hiring hiring...PLEASE work for us!!. Course the jobs are all service entry level jobs......fastfood/restaurant/storefront. It certainly is a tourist economy, at least in Waikiki.

lol.....its now fun to watch "Dog the Bounty hunter". My GF and i saw an episode last nite and we were like....i recognize that park they're standing in front of....we were just there a few days ago!

[:D]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Odd about the unemployment, given that Oahu is, according the papers, suffering a severe labor shortage. Supported in the field by a flurry of "now hiring" signs. Everywhere we went.....hiring hiring...PLEASE work for us!!. Course the jobs are all service entry level jobs......fastfood/restaurant/storefront. It certainly is a tourist economy, at least in Waikiki.

lol.....its now fun to watch "Dog the Bounty hunter". My GF and i saw an episode last nite and we were like....i recognize that park they're standing in front of....we were just there a few days ago!

[:D]

Hmm - maybe unemployment is down now, or maybe the problem isn't bad on Oahu. This has certainly been a big problem in the state overall during the last few years (running around 9%, iirc). The problem was particularly bad several years ago when the Japanese real estate bubble popped, and lots of hotels made drastic cutbacks before finding new buyers.

As for recognizing spots, this is fun. Kauii is a good place for that, as Hollywood likes to shoot TV and movies there, as well as commercials. My wife is always gleefully pointing out "i know that spot"!!