Minewarfare Questions

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

so you say that´s right if 100 bombers mining e.g. Truk where 200 fighters are on cap and they can´t be intercepted. So that´s how history was brought into that game... [8|]

for me it´s a bug and is house ruled in my games.

Question: When heavy bombers air-drop those minefields, do they do so during the day or at night? If at night, the daytime CAP couldn't intercept them.

[spence]

From the article it sounded like the mining was done mostly at night and, incidentally relied for the most part on radar navigation.

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Derek, I have never seen the AI conduct offensive mining operations in all my time playing UV/WITP.

OK - I'll bite. When you hit a mine, were did it come from?

Spence hit it on the nose... the only time my ships have hit mines has been in enemy ports. For clarity sake, WITPers usually differentiate between offensive (mining enemy or open waters) and defensive (mining your own bases) mining operations.

BTW: defensive minefields are less likely to cause damage to your own ships, whereas offensive minefields are offensive to both sides...

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

And the Allies have how many? Argonaut

First - ALL Japanese subs are rated to lay mines - look in your editor.
Second- Argonaut is NOT a minelayer! This was fixed in UV - did they unfix it again? Argonaut was modified to a transport sub and had no mine laying gear at all. Too bad too - the special mines for her were never used.

Third - I think ALL Allied subs are also rated to lay mines if you like. In fact, I do so at least half the time - and never have found one that won't.

Wonder what "rated to lay mines" means ? Only 4 Japanese subs can lay mines in the game ... and 100+ allied subs can ... I know that much ... "rated" or not.

[el cid again]

From the article it sounded like the mining was done mostly at night and, incidentally relied for the most part on radar navigation.

I have not seen the article - but that is what it SHOULD have said. Mine laying is a very safe mission for bombers. It can be done in ways that do not attract the kind of opposition that other targets do. It is rare to encounter AAA over water - and AAA kills more bombers than fighters do.
It is also rare for interceptors to be defending water targets. They are geared to think in terms of defending cities, factories, bases, bridges, etc. And at night - only night fighters have the option to even try - over water anyway. You can lay a minefield in many places - it is hard to know where you plan to drop? Even if someone guesses what you are up to. Not many planes were lost in this role - and the game is right to make it that way - it is not a bug.

[el cid again]

Spence hit it on the nose... the only time my ships have hit mines has been in enemy ports.

I have been hit by AI laid mines in the Torres Strait - and in the Port of Manila. That is, the minefield was undetected until it attacked, THEN it appeared on the map as an enemy minefield. I do not think a Japanese minefield in an Allied location is a defensive minefield.

[el cid again]

Wonder what "rated to lay mines" means ?

Rated to lay mines means mines are listed in the weapons loadout.
AND also that you can assign a minelaying mission to the sub. I use minelaying missions at least half the time - and I have yet to find a sub with torpedo tubes that won't let me do that - provided I load at the right port. Now I have trouble with minor Allied subs on the SECOND mission - the first mission is fine. But ever try to RELOAD mines on a Dutch sub?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

so you say that´s right if 100 bombers mining e.g. Truk where 200 fighters are on cap and they can´t be intercepted. So that´s how history was brought into that game...

for me it´s a bug and is house ruled in my games.

How do fighters on CAP intercept small vessels operating at night? When the USN raided Balikpapan, the IJN rear admiral believed they were a single, Dutch submarine! Things are really hard to understand at night. A generation later I saw a night battle in the Gulf of Siam. Even with what we regarded as "modern" radar (not imaging radar like RN uses today) we were confused, and ultimately failed in our mission. Night battle is inherantly confusing.

sorry, but I´m not talking about VESSELS I´m talking about BOMBERS! Hundreds of them can lay mines at 6000 feet at bright daylight and the 200 fighters on CAP at 10000 feet can´t intercept them! ====> B U G

[bradfordkay]

I have been hit by AI laid mines in the Torres Strait - and in the Port of Manila. That is, the minefield was undetected until it attacked, THEN it appeared on the map as an enemy minefield. I do not think a Japanese minefield in an Allied location is a defensive minefield.



I've never run into such a creature... I don't know why, maybe I'm retreating too fast for the AI to mine my ports! (Okay, not really, I have played as far as March '43 where I was definitely well into the offensive mode)

[spence]

In reply to Castor Troy

The article wouldn't let me cut and paste so here are some stats from its summary:

In the so-called Outer Zone (Marianas, Carolines, Philippines, DEI, China):

3231 mining a/c sorties laying 9254 mines in 108 minefields
40 a/c lost to all causes
estimate of 405 ships sunk or damaged/776,260 tons

In the Inner Zone (Japan)

1529 B-29 mining sorties laying 12,135 mines in 26 minefields
15 a/c lost to all causes
estimated 670 ships/1,251,256 tons
apparently the Japanese resorted to sweeping some mines with suicide small craft upon occasion

The facts indicate that Japanese CAP, even over the home islands, was pretty ineffective in preventing/deterring aerial mining by Allied a/c and inflicted at most only about 1% losses (if ALL losses were credited to Japanese defenses).

[el cid again]

The facts indicate that Japanese CAP, even over the home islands, was pretty ineffective in preventing/deterring aerial mining by Allied a/c and inflicted at most only about 1% losses (if ALL losses were credited to Japanese defenses).

Official data also says that losses of aircraft - including the B-29 - were always greater to AAA than to fighters. So by that standard, the CAP caused losses must be less than 1/2 of 1%. Yet other data indicates that operational losses were in a similar range - only rarely did enemy action cause losses in the 2-4% range - and that was almost always due to AAA.
But operational losses were a major fraction of 1% regardless of enemy caused losses. CAP cannot have caused more than 1/4 of 1% losses in the mine campaign. I dout it caused any.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: spence

In reply to Castor Troy

The article wouldn't let me cut and paste so here are some stats from its summary:

In the so-called Outer Zone (Marianas, Carolines, Philippines, DEI, China):

3231 mining a/c sorties laying 9254 mines in 108 minefields
40 a/c lost to all causes
estimate of 405 ships sunk or damaged/776,260 tons

In the Inner Zone (Japan)

1529 B-29 mining sorties laying 12,135 mines in 26 minefields
15 a/c lost to all causes
estimated 670 ships/1,251,256 tons
apparently the Japanese resorted to sweeping some mines with suicide small craft upon occasion

The facts indicate that Japanese CAP, even over the home islands, was pretty ineffective in preventing/deterring aerial mining by Allied a/c and inflicted at most only about 1% losses (if ALL losses were credited to Japanese defenses).

Sorry, but I don´t understand why let´s say 150 fighters on CAP over Truk wouldn´t intercept 200 bombers coming in in daylight to mine Truk´s port! And I wonder if those minelaying bombers also came in with 200+ bombers in one raid on one target in reality. I think they did that in smaller numbers and that´s why it was hard to get them. But in WITP they aren´t even intercepted.

[spence]

The bombers didn't operate in daytime and sortied individually or in small groups. My guess is that Matrix hard-coded that they would not be intercepted because the mission was historically and statistically a very safe mission.

BTW, even late war, an effective Japanese CAP of 150 planes is pretty much without historical foundation

[BlackVoid]

I think castor says that in-game, the allies can lay mines at day and not get intercepted.

Arguing that very few AC was lost is silly. We play the game to alter history not to redo it again. With the same argument you could also argue that if ship X was not lost to enemy action, it should be invulnerable in the game.

[spence]

We play the game to alter history not to redo it again

You already have your altered history with 150 "effective" Japanese fighters in a CAP.

Since the a/c conducting the mining could essentially take off and land in the daylight hours (even though the mission was at night) my guess is that matrix made it a day mission to avoid imposing ahistorical operational losses.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: spence

The bombers didn't operate in daytime and sortied individually or in small groups. My guess is that Matrix hard-coded that they would not be intercepted because the mission was historically and statistically a very safe mission.

BTW, even late war, an effective Japanese CAP of 150 planes is pretty much without historical foundation

This makes it even more obvious that in game aerial mining is broken, as in game 200+ bombers (not in small numbers) can do aerial mining from 6000 feet at the best defended base (or whatever base they want with whatever cap) without being intercepted. I even think they aren´t shot at by flak.

[spence]

In the game there are too many heavy bombers. Thus the high sortie number; more than I could find any record of anyways. But the mining a/c didn't fly in large formations: 12 hours is a long time for them to come in in ones and twos at low altitude and from many directions with minimal possibility of detection and even less of interception.

I personally haven't gotten to a point in a game where mining becomes a possibility.
My guess is that settings for the bombers conducting it are essentially irrelevant. The lack of flak firing at the bombers would tend to confirm that. I might suggest you try flying CAP with some nightfighters and see if that brings on some kind of combat (I think I've heard that Japanese nightfighters aren't very good so you might have to wait a bunch of turns to see results).

[castor troy]

As I´ve seen it in the game large, no, huge formations of bombers come in at DAYLIGHT and aren´t touched by CAP (don´t know about flak). If it would be like it was in real life I wouldn´t have a problem. Of course small numbers or single planes at low level would be hard to intercept. But formations of 200 bombers at the same time over the same target? Anybody seriously thinking those wouldn´t be attacked with all they´ve got?

Bringing in night fighters doesn´t help, the 200+ mining formations come in at daylight.

[spence]

Just wondering...is there a combat animation for aerial mining?

Actually I have another question as well. How effective are these mines? In my limited experience in WitP and in UV the IJN MSWs do a pretty good job of cleaning up minefields.
IRL several waterways and harbors were essentially closed using mines and although the IJN eventually found a way to sweep almost every type of mine the Allies used the Allies apparently laid the mines in fields with a mixed bag of triggering devices which complicated sweeping to such an extent that the IJN MSWs were unable to clear many of the fields to an acceptable level of safety for regular traffic.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: spence

Just wondering...is there a combat animation for aerial mining?

Actually I have another question as well. How effective are these mines? In my limited experience in WitP and in UV the IJN MSWs do a pretty good job of cleaning up minefields.
IRL several waterways and harbors were essentially closed using mines and although the IJN eventually found a way to sweep almost every type of mine the Allies used the Allies apparently laid the mines in fields with a mixed bag of triggering devices which complicated sweeping to such an extent that the IJN MSWs were unable to clear many of the fields to an acceptable level of safety for regular traffic.

yes, you get a combat report about how many bombers and at what alt they mined.