New Alternate Strategy

[TIMJOT]

Morrison writes. That that there was nothing in the Hull message that constituted an ultimatum implied or unimplied that could be contrued by the Japanese, that if they did not comply that there would be war. It simply stated the US position and did not threaten war if Japan failed to abide by it.

[TIMJOT]

However. In your defence Mogami. Chiteng is quite wrong that the PI could be starved out. It was not a net importer of food and had sufficient agricultural resources to supply its needs indefinitly.

[Chiteng]

Even if they were a net non-importer of food
so what? Ok so they dont starve. That is a far cry from leading the first wave of an invasion of
Kyusu. What you are saying is that the Japanese could invade so they could steal the PI food?
You cant fuel a war with Copra. The PI people
want us all to believe they are important, it simply isnt true. the islands could vanish tommorow and there would be little global impact.

[mogami]

Hi, OK now i see the brillance of your stratagy. Japan will only invade and occupy resource rich areas. We will save troops and material by ignoring places that only have importance because of location (sitting astride our supply route is of minor note) With the troops and aircraft we save not taking Rabual (only copra down there) Truk and all those useless bases we can invade the oil rich Alaska

[Chiteng]

The adjacent islands including Leyte have plenty of
locations for airfields if that is what you wish
to set up.

Cebu is a case in point. I am saying that
the PI doesnt further the war effort, and it detracts. However I have conceeded that this
is in the realm of fantasy. The Imperial Army
would never allow a bastion of the USA to remain.
In addition I dont recall any territory that Japan
occupied EVER conceeded w/o a fight except
Port Arthur. The carpet eaters always win.
Clauswitz warned of that also.

[mogami]

Hi, Leyte has no airbase to speak of in Dec 41, Clark is a hardsurface large airbase with support facilities, it is easy to take. I have better use for engineering units then building redundant airbases at this stage of war (later Leyte will be built) I have almost instant airpower over the whole region by capturing Clark. You are free to conduct the war in your way, I look forward with keen interest in hearing how it works out. For myself I am chained to old out of date doctrines like "never leave an undefeated enemy in your rear" I can't help it these modern ideas scare me.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>

[Chiteng]

How fortunate for Prussia that Fredrick the Great
didnt follow that doctrine.

[mogami]

How fortunate for Prussia that Cathrine died

[Chiteng]

Yes that is quite true. Mere fortune.
Such is how the fates of men are decided.

[mogami]

Hi, while we wait for UV to finish so work on WITP can resume how about a nice duel Pac War game? Each of us send the other a first turn as Japan. (that way we are playing each side)
I'll use my Favorite Tora Tora Tora start, you can use what you like. (for PBEM game I just copy whole Pacwar folder and rename PBEM) ver 2.3

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]</p>

[Chiteng]

I cant afford ADC 2
and I dont like Pacwar
the production is a joke

In fact it actually HELPS the USA to lose the
pre-war Carriers because then they come back
as Essex class. Sorry I am fed up with BS.

[Ranger-75]

Chiteng,

How can it "help" when the other side gets victory points for them and you lose their use for a year???


The only one worth "losing" is the Wasp with its slow speed and almost nonexistant armour and lower aircraft capacity. The others are too closely matched to the Essex class to even think of this as a viable course of action. <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Ron Saueracker]

Mogami...If you are so sure US would declare war on Japan for attacking the Dutch 1) you are assuming that their relationship was vastly stronger than that of US/UK 2) overlooking that there is some merit to the arguement that US civil power knew of coming Pearl Harbor attack (a popular theory) and utilized it to assure unanimous Congressional and popular vote commitment to enter the world conflict.

[corbulo]

Costello finishes his book "Pacific War" by stating its almost certain Churchill knew Japan would attack Pearl Harbor in Nov 1941, but did not tell FDR. England had access to "MAGIC" intercepts and had broken IJN combined Fleet Traffic years previously. Its almost inconceivable that they would have been fooled, as americans were, in the switching of Call signs from s to carriers to destroyers. None of Churchill's or British Secret information has been declassified (and wont be for another 75 years)(the copyright for the book is 1982) .
Costello also states that FDR would have asked for a Declaration of War if Dutch/British possesions where attacked by Japan. FDR had his doubts whether COngress would pass it.

[TIMJOT]

Originally posted by corbulo
Costello finishes his book "Pacific War" by stating its almost certain Churchill knew Japan would attack Pearl Harbor in Nov 1941, but did not tell FDR. England had access to "MAGIC" intercepts and had broken IJN combined Fleet Traffic years previously. Its almost inconceivable that they would have been fooled, as americans were, in the switching of Call signs from s to carriers to destroyers. None of Churchill's or British Secret information has been declassified (and wont be for another 75 years)(the copyright for the book is 1982) .
Costello also states that FDR would have asked for a Declaration of War if Dutch/British possesions where attacked by Japan. FDR had his doubts whether COngress would pass it.

Well founded doughts I may add.

[mogami]

Originally posted by corbulo
Costello finishes his book "Pacific War" by stating its almost certain Churchill knew Japan would attack Pearl Harbor in Nov 1941, but did not tell FDR. England had access to "MAGIC" intercepts and had broken IJN combined Fleet Traffic years previously. Its almost inconceivable that they would have been fooled, as americans were, in the switching of Call signs from s to carriers to destroyers. None of Churchill's or British Secret information has been declassified (and wont be for another 75 years)(the copyright for the book is 1982) .
Costello also states that FDR would have asked for a Declaration of War if Dutch/British possesions where attacked by Japan. FDR had his doubts whether COngress would pass it.

Why does everyone who claims FDR or Churchill knew of the PH strike plan in advance always suppose they would have allowed it?
A great US victory on Dec 7 1941 where IJN CV's are repelled or destroyed would have put the US into the war the same as losing all the ships. Americans would have still been outraged. There would have been no good reason to keep it secret and letting us know would have been of far greater importance then protecting the intell (It would not matter if Japan knew their codes were broke if the CV's were at the bottem of the Pacific. The USN could have ambushed the strike TF very easy if they knew in advance it was coming.
For this reason alone I do not believe in 75 years the world will find out Winnie knew anything.
Also I can't believe 'Z' force in Singapore would have been set up or deployed in the manner it was with prior knowledge of the war.

[TIMJOT]

Originally posted by Mogami


Why does everyone who claims FDR or Churchill knew of the PH strike plan in advance always suppose they would have allowed it?
A great US victory on Dec 7 1941 where IJN CV's are repelled or destroyed would have put the US into the war the same as losing all the ships. Americans would have still been outraged. There would have been no good reason to keep it secret and letting us know would have been of far greater importance then protecting the intell (It would not matter if Japan knew their codes were broke if the CV's were at the bottem of the Pacific. The USN could have ambushed the strike TF very easy if they knew in advance it was coming.
For this reason alone I do not believe in 75 years the world will find out Winnie knew anything.
Also I can't believe 'Z' force in Singapore would have been set up or deployed in the manner it was with prior knowledge of the war.

I for one, dont believe for a minute that FDR knew that the Japanese were going to attack PH. He was certain they would attack, most likely the PI, but PH that was unimagininable. He was afraid the Japanese might just attack the Brits and Dutch. Thats why IMHO he sent the USN Yacht Isabelle in harms way off the coast of Indo-china. He was hopeing to bait the Japanese into an incident.

[Ranger-75]

There were clues as to the Japanese true intentions (to attack PH) but they were widely dispersed and spread out over time. The Japanese had been planning the attack for a year. The book "The American Magic" also printed in the mid 80's details the various clues, like a German agent that was caught in early 1941 on the east coast with instructions to get descriptions of PH and the ships there. He was caught by the FBI but they completely ignored the ramifications (JE Hoover himself is to blame here). Then there were the intercepts later in 1941 asking about Hawaii's defenses that were never forwarded. A comdey (actually tragedy) of errors not the least of which was the US commanders in PH failure to effectively coordinate their defenses and have a reasonable level of alert.

I wonder if the Japanese even knew that there was a Radar installation at PH. Even if that sighting was acted on, only 1 fighter squadron was on any type of alert. It would have made things more interesting though.

I firmly believe that neither FDR or WSC knew that PH was about to be attacked.

We can always ask ST Peter when the time comes. That and who shot JFK are at the top of my questions list along with Elvis' & Jim Morrison's true whereabouts

[TIMJOT]

Originally posted by Ranger-75
There were clues as to the Japanese true intentions (to attack PH) but they were widely dispersed and spread out over time. The Japanese had been planning the attack for a year. The book "The American Magic" also printed in the mid 80's details the various clues, like a German agent that was caught in early 1941 on the east coast with instructions to get descriptions of PH and the ships there. He was caught by the FBI but they completely ignored the ramifications (JE Hoover himself is to blame here). Then there were the intercepts later in 1941 asking about Hawaii's defenses that were never forwarded. A comdey (actually tragedy) of errors not the least of which was the US commanders in PH failure to effectively coordinate their defenses and have a reasonable level of alert.

I wonder if the Japanese even knew that there was a Radar installation at PH. Even if that sighting was acted on, only 1 fighter squadron was on any type of alert. It would have made things more interesting though.

I firmly believe that neither FDR or WSC knew that PH was about to be attacked.

We can always ask ST Peter when the time comes. That and who shot JFK are at the top of my questions list along with Elvis' & Jim Morrison's true whereabouts

True, but in their defence, foriegn agents gathering information on military installations is hardly definitive in signalling intentions to attack those particular installations. It could easily be construed as simple routine intellegence gathering. I am sure there were agents collecting info on San-Diego NB and Norfork NB as well. That doesnt mean the enemy planed to attack those bases. No more so than US agents gathering info on the Kure NB or Yokohama NB. All indications pointed to war and war indicated Japan attacking south. There was some hersey intelligenced passed on from the Tokyo embassy the specifically metioned PH as an target of an attack, but I believe it was too outlandish to even be considered.