The Slant

[pasternakski]

Put it to rest, people.

There has been no commitment to even planning for a WitP 2, so why talk about what should be in it? I guarantee you that, if such a beast is ever created and it uses the same "system" as WitP 1, I wouldn't touch it with Brady's ... well, you know.

The point is that, unless a design is planned and underway, this is all futile.

As far as code changes to WitP after patch 1.8, you're living in some dream world if you think anything of the kind will either happen or improve anything. In fact, as past experience has shown, "tweaks" tend to turn into "breaks." There seems to have been a Matrix "sigh of relief" after Don and Joe did such a remarkable job with 1.8. I would be much surprised - and even more disappointed - if that turned into a fresh breath of life into any "let's change this and let's fiddle with that" project.

You can play it now. Go do it. It's flawed. Is it going to get any better? No. Is it going to change substantially? I hope not.

[Speedysteve]

Agreed on WiTP II Pas. A lot of subjection and discussion but all has been mentioned is that there MAY be a WiTP II in the future......

[Brady]

It's the process...

Why do we play this game, why do we keep playing this game, why did we buy it, because it ain't easy. Why are we debating this game, why do we pounder the pounderable, because it is dificult, were hear to fight for what we want our vishion, ultamately a colective one a great scheam that we all ultimatly contribute some small part to. it's been what two years now nearly since the game came out? This has been their plan all along you see, were all caught up in some kinda uber Beta Test, eveuntaily the real game will come out and will still look for ways to tweak it. Thats the fun part, the game it's self the playing of it, heck that just gives us food for thought on what to tweak and how to do that.[:)]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Brady


Ron- Are we talking about the same thing? I was or am refering to the rule that instantly put's a sunk US CV in the pipeline. to be returned in I belave years time...This is to alow the US to Win in the end no mater what presumably.

If we are talking about respawn, yes we are on about the same thing. I'm playing only one game right now and in my PBEM we have yet to lose an aircraft carrier on either side despite having had a few CV battles. The reward for the Allies for not losing prewar CVs is basically a punishment...he loses the early built Essexes historically renamed for lost CVs (CV 10, 12, 16, 18). I've yet to lose an USN or RAN cruiser either, despite having placed many in harms way. I lose the cruisers historically renamed for any historically sunk and renamed too.

So, what is the impact for Bill? He still gets to convert CSs to CVLs. Why? Is there a shortage? The Allies get screrwed, the Japanese don't. Where is the pro Allied slant here?

the conversion of those two CS is worth nothing. Just like the conversion of Hyuga and Ise. I never do it. If you use those two CS like they are against subs and they are able to sink one then they have achieved more than two CVL would achieve. They are only training targets for 4E bombers.

But it is the point that counts. If respawn was put in there to "model" the scrapping of redundant hulls due to the Allies doing better than historically as we have been told (as opposed to just a bad way of getting around the dual naming issue...I'd not admit it either if that was the case), why is this not the case as well for Japan. Who cares if the Chitose class are less than ideal? Where is the "balance" here?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: juliet7bravo

"So, what is the impact for Bill? He still gets to convert CSs to CVLs. Why? Is there a shortage? The Allies get screrwed, the Japanese don't. Where is the pro Allied slant here?"

Other considerations aside, the 3 IJN CS's were designed/purpose built so they could be easily converted to CVL's. In their particular cases, it's prior planning and preparation on the part of the IJN and can't be connected to other issues.

The Essexes were designed and purpose built too, along with all the other missing ships. [;)] Prior planning had them available starting early 1943 as ships with names like Oriskany, Flint, Bon Homme Richard, etc but "for some reason" they go to the breakers.

Hey, I'm just having fun at Brady's expence due to his notion that there is a pro Allied slant to the game. There can't be given the respawn feature, which is about as beneficial to the Allies as having a splintered broom handle jammed up the exit only vent in my posterior would be to my health and comfort.[:D]

[JeffroK]

Supply used up by units.

While the American way was to use their copius amounts of Supply, the Japanese & other Allied Nations needed to be more carful on their lower supply levels.

Thought, Allocate a supply usage per unit i.e. US Infantry Division at 100% TOE uses 100pts per day. A British Div uses 90, Australian & Indian Div 80, Japanese Div 70. Usage is adjusted by the % to TOE and multipiers for movement, combat etc??

LB-30, CHS has them as patrol types, I dont agree with this as they are not available as bombers. I think there are 3-4 Sqns available, maybe 50% should be available as bombers.

From Bloody Shambles vol II
On 11 Jan 42, 3 LB-30 of the 7th Bomb Gp reached Malang in Java...

LB-30's attacked Japanes shipping in small numbers , raids seemed to be 3-4 aircraft
On 10 Feb 3 LB-30 bombed and damaged Chitose south of the Celebes

BY March 42, LB-30 were being flown into India from the Mid East in small numbers, often used to transport supplies for the AVG.

On 1-2 April, 2 B17 & 1 LB-30 attacked Port Blair (Massive Allied Raids)

So LB-30's did see action in the "Pacific", if we take the entire playing map of WITP as being "The Pacific". But not in big numbers because the supply & maintenance probles saw them and the B17's used in penny packets. (Maybe the game should hit them with higher Ops losses in this period)

[Grotius]

Well, there's one area in which there's a pro-Allied slant: the subtitle of the game. It's "The Struggle Against Japan 1941-1945." It's not "The Struggle Between Japan and the Allies 1941-1945" and cetainly not "The Struggle Against the Western Allies 1941-1945." Now, don't jump all over me and say I'm unpatriotic; of course I know the Allies were the good guys in WW2. And I know the title's a small thing. Maybe it was a deliberate marketing thing: for all I know, most WITP players play as the Allies against the Japanese AI. And it's doubtful that there are many Japanese people playign WITP. Or maybe it was just the devs' natural view of the thing, which again is understandable. If I'd poured five years of my life into such a gigantic project, I'd call it whatever I like, thank you very much.

Compare titles of other Matrix games, which are often (though not always) more neutral: "Battles in Normandy," "Battles in Italy", "Crown of Glory," "Gary Grigsby's World at War," "World in Flames," "World War II Online," "Flashpoint Germany," "SPWAW," "Campaigns on the Danube", "The Sims 2 Hot Date," etc. Even "Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific" is close to neutral, though admittedly the main title is an Allied reference.

Not a big deal. I'm just sayin'.

[JeffroK]

The game has a sub-title???

I never read that far!

But the Japs were hated far more than the Germans & Italians for their surprise attack on Pearl & later for their treatment of POW & Internees so they get castigated with fewer fears.

PS, The Japanese got their arse wiped in WW2, so dont be surprised that a game recreates this. It wasnt a level playing field.

[Brady]

JeffK- Thanks for that I just got Bloody Shambles the other day and have been working on the first part of the first volume.

Grotius- Thier is a subtle bias in everything that has to do with the Pacific war, largely imo the result of the propaganda war that raged hear in the states during the war, and steming from a time when a lot of Americans beelaved what the goverment and the media told them. It was pased down to their kids and those kids designed this game. It is not imo an intentional thing just a sort programed reflex response, an unawarness. The efect is imo at times something like this:

You could look at a problem like the recent Glen isue, some would say:

They could Not do that...

Or you could Say;

They Did Not do that...

The first implies a preconceaved openion based on the Notion that they were from the get go inferiour in some way. The later that they were not and did not do so for a reasion, a choice was made.

My veiw is every time you Slight the Japanese, you dishoner the men and women who faught them, and the Japanese. If you want to learn and show some respect for those who gave so much for everyone, even the Japanese, then you owe it to them all to try and see the truth, slipery though it is.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Brady
why do we pounder the pounderable

Even the MST3K guys couldn't burlesque that one.

Riddle me this: if WitP is so slanted in favor of the Allies, why does Allied aircraft R&D come to such a screeching halt at the end of 1944?

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Well, there's one area in which there's a pro-Allied slant: the subtitle of the game. It's "The Struggle Against Japan 1941-1945." It's not "The Struggle Between Japan and the Allies 1941-1945" and cetainly not "The Struggle Against the Western Allies 1941-1945." Now, don't jump all over me and say I'm unpatriotic; of course I know the Allies were the good guys in WW2. And I know the title's a small thing. Maybe it was a deliberate marketing thing: for all I know, most WITP players play as the Allies against the Japanese AI. And it's doubtful that there are many Japanese people playign WITP. Or maybe it was just the devs' natural view of the thing, which again is understandable. If I'd poured five years of my life into such a gigantic project, I'd call it whatever I like, thank you very much.

Compare titles of other Matrix games, which are often (though not always) more neutral: "Battles in Normandy," "Battles in Italy", "Crown of Glory," "Gary Grigsby's World at War," "World in Flames," "World War II Online," "Flashpoint Germany," "SPWAW," "Campaigns on the Danube", "The Sims 2 Hot Date," etc. Even "Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific" is close to neutral, though admittedly the main title is an Allied reference.

Not a big deal. I'm just sayin'.

There's one other way of looking at this. "The struggle against the Soviet Union, China, Great Britian, India, the Dutch East Indies, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the United States of America" IS a bit cumbersome....

[Brady]

"Riddle me this: if WitP is so slanted in favor of the Allies, why does Allied aircraft R&D come to such a screeching halt at the end of 1944?'

All the planes Japan have in 1943 are shot down by F4U's that year anyway. Honestly i dont know either way it makes no diferance, all the Allied planes from the F4U on totaly domanate the Japanese planes, so it is kinda pointless.

............................

O I forgot One!

The freaking Piolet pool thing- this is the mother of all dead horses though, and more or less part of the A to A model I mentioned above.

[Mike Scholl]

BRADY. You are welcome to all the "Piolets" you want...., but Japanese pilot training was severly limited historically and totally inadequate to fighting anything but a short limited war. That's reality...., and it jumped up and bit the Japanese right in the ass when the war lasted more than 6 months. They never were able to make up the difference caused by their poor planning.

[juliet7bravo]

"The struggle against the Soviet Union, China, Great Britian, India, the Dutch East Indies, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the United States of America"

Sorry Dick, It's got a nice beat but you can't dance to it...

Piolet training...personally, I think this is one of the areas in which the "Grand High Poobah" of the Japanese military should be able to impact to a LIMITED degree if he so desired.

The FIRST task of a WitP 2 would be outlining the players role and determining what he can influence from within the realistic limits of that role.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: juliet7bravo
The FIRST task of a WitP 2 would be outlining the players role and determining what he can influence from within the realistic limits of that role.

J7B, I'm reading you 5by5.

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: juliet7bravo
The FIRST task of a WitP 2 would be outlining the players role and determining what he can influence from within the realistic limits of that role.

J7B, I'm reading you 5by5.

BEER.

[Grotius]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
There's one other way of looking at this. "The struggle against the Soviet Union, China, Great Britian, India, the Dutch East Indies, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the United States of America" IS a bit cumbersome....

Ha! But you left out Burma. And I still think "The Sims 2 Hot Date" would be a better subtitle.

[Ron Saueracker]

Here is another approach...if the game is slanted in favour of the Allies, why are all the "pro" Allied specific issues correctable via the editor but the "pro" Japanese specific issues are hard coded?

eg.

P-39/P-400: They had no supercharger so they performed poorly over 10,000 feet. Well, basically every plane had an achillies heel, why just pick on this one? Something GG read as a boy and is now part of the computer gaming ancient scrolls of factual snippets.

Zero Bonus: Been there, done that.

Japanese strike coodination bonus: No basis in fact unless vs land targets but Japanese get it anyway.

Lack of Allied CAP advantage: There is vastly more evidence to support an Allied CAP bonus due to radar/fighter direction than the Japanese strike coodination bonus, but the Japanese get the strike coodinationation bonus and the Allies don't get a CAP bonus. Impact is Japanese get the unwarranted strike bonus and an unwarranted equality in CAP ability...basically the Allied player takes it up the hoop.

Unlimited aerial launched torps: As we have seen, this is a huge benefit to Japan given the Betty and Nell.

Respawn: The most blatant pro Japanese hogwash in the game. If it was a solution to get around the dual naming issue, I suppose the same guy who came up with this would cut his arm off to allieviate the pain caused by a hangnail.

Feel free all to add to the Big Hard Coded Allied Humping List. Brady, feel free to counter this with some pro Allied hardcoding.

[Drongo]

Lack of Allied CAP advantage: There is vastly more evidence to support an Allied CAP bonus due to radar/fighter direction than the Japanese strike coodination bonus, but the Japanese get the strike coodinationation bonus and the Allies don't get a CAP bonus. Impact is Japanese get the unwarranted strike bonus and an unwarranted equality in CAP ability...basically the Allied player takes it up the hoop.

[:'(]
Didn't you know they added this during Beta?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Drongo

Lack of Allied CAP advantage: There is vastly more evidence to support an Allied CAP bonus due to radar/fighter direction than the Japanese strike coodination bonus, but the Japanese get the strike coodinationation bonus and the Allies don't get a CAP bonus. Impact is Japanese get the unwarranted strike bonus and an unwarranted equality in CAP ability...basically the Allied player takes it up the hoop.

[:'(]
Didn't you know they added this during Beta?

Whaawhaaaaa? Who was behind that? Man, have one remote infarction and you miss everything.[8D]