A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's

[o4r]

I uses large map, I use the battle generator.
 
I was playing russian vs AI German.
 
Somehow, they kept purchasing infantry and infantry.

[Alby]

I meant how many Points you are using, not size of map...sorry

[o4r]

I think I found the problem, Look at German AI formation 1024, It is set to purchase tank 1942. Once I changed to January 1938, it started to purchase tanks.

Dunno I got it right or not but somehow after this changes, AI when played German started to buy more tanks and tank destroyer rather than mass infantry.

[Alby]

there are  also other formations the AI buys, that are not all marked as +++AI such and such++
[:)]
But might be good idea to change that date to earlier like you did.

[o4r]

OK, I changed the year to 1944.

When I selected a random generator battle for year 1943, again the AI german purchased a lot of infantry. Hmm...... [:'(]

[KG Erwin]

Alby, I wasn't implying that the team ignored the Russians, but in vanilla 8.403 it was pretty difficult to generate any enthusiasm for them for the players.
 
Now, they present a viable country to play AS in a long campaign.  It's still a tough road to hoe, but if you stick with them, I think that a reasonable facsimile of the juggernaut that beat the Germans into the ground can be created.  I hold a lot of respect for the "Ivans". [;)]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

" I think that a reasonable facsimile of the juggernaut that beat the Germans into the ground can be created. I hold a lot of respect for the Ivans". [;)]

Yeah, call me  old fashioned, but I'm one of those "John Wayne All-Americans" that still believes the "other" Allies (the ones in Africa and Italy and the Western Front) kinda helped, yuh know.......

[Twotribes]

Speaking of the "Ivan" juggernaut.

Just checked the Fire Control and Range Finder numbers on German and Soviet Tanks and Tank Destroyers. They are pretty much the same, the early German Tanks through Pz III E all have FC 4 and RF 2

The Pz III G to M have FC 4 and RF 3

All early Soviet tanks have FC 4 and RF 2 Except one very early T-28 model with a 1 for RF.

All but one model of T-34 have FC 4 and RF 3

All but one model of KV-1 have FC 4 and RF 3 By 44 most Soviet tanks have 4/4 or 4/5 so the 4/6 and 4/7 of the germans is not noticable then either.

Basicly since the crew morale and training have been upped also there is no difference between German and Soviet tanks, well except that historicly the Germans beat the better armored and gunned Soviet Tanks in the first year with little problem.

I would advice anyone playing the Germans NOT to be historical.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Alby, I wasn't implying that the team ignored the Russians, but in vanilla 8.403 it was pretty difficult to generate any enthusiasm for them for the players.

Now, they present a viable country to play AS in a long campaign. It's still a tough road to hoe, but if you stick with them, I think that a reasonable facsimile of the juggernaut that beat the Germans into the ground can be created. I hold a lot of respect for the "Ivans". [;)]

I know you were'nt
[:)]
The Russians can still be a task to use early in the war, but are pretty tough by wars end!

[FlashfyreSP]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Speaking of the "Ivan" juggernaut.

Just checked the Fire Control and Range Finder numbers on German and Soviet Tanks and Tank Destroyers. They are pretty much the same, the early German Tanks through Pz III E all have FC 4 and RF 2

The Pz III G to M have FC 4 and RF 3

All early Soviet tanks have FC 4 and RF 2 Except one very early T-28 model with a 1 for RF.

All but one model of T-34 have FC 4 and RF 3

All but one model of KV-1 have FC 4 and RF 3 By 44 most Soviet tanks have 4/4 or 4/5 so the 4/6 and 4/7 of the germans is not noticable then either.

Basicly since the crew morale and training have been upped also there is no difference between German and Soviet tanks, well except that historicly the Germans beat the better armored and gunned Soviet Tanks in the first year with little problem.

I would advice anyone playing the Germans NOT to be historical.

The true test of a unit's ability to fight isn't these values; it's the Experience and Skill ratings of the commanders. Russian tanks had gun sights and rangefinding equipment, just like the German tanks did. They both had rangefinding equipment; while the Russian gear was not as high-quality as the German gear, it worked, and the Russians got good at using them.

This has been the trouble with the game over the years; using these stats to artificially "balance" the sides, in response to a lot of "perceived" history. Remember too that the base game code was SPIII, a modern-era game, which was built to cover units from WWII through the 21st Century. That means that these ratings, above 3 or 4, are approaching modern-day tanks with onboard computers and laser rangefinders. The ratings are an abstract value representing the technology of the period; don't read too much into them, or make the mistake of thinking that each increase in the number is a samll improvement in technology or quality. These ratings, for the most part, are subjective.

Edited for sentence structure error.

[Twotribes]

Following is the German and soviet Experience/Morale/Leader ratings

I did the Germans from 39 and started the Soviet in 41.

German/ Soviet

exp/morale/leader rating per year

39 55/75/70 not checked
40 65/75/75 not checked
41 70/70/75 60/65/65
42 70/65/75 65/65/65 Note the German morale dropped
43 70/70/75 70/70/65
44 65/70/75 70/75/70
45 65/65/70 70/75/70

Except the 39 value all were checked in June of the effected year ( 39 was September)

Unless one takes elite units there is little difference between German and Soviet forces.

[Twotribes]

I prefer to start in September 39 with Germany. This means I have 4 battles before the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 41 ( 5 if I cheat and change to North Africa for one battle in or around 4/41) which means that at the start of Barbarossa I have managed to upgrade my motorized companies to mechanized and I have probably managed to buy a couple platoons of Pz III H's.

With the new experience morale and Leader Values for the Soviets my units are generally inferior to the Soviets now since only a few units in each battle gain experience. I just find it hard to believe even ignoring my play style and say choosing to start in 1941 that the Soviets are so close to the German Regular army in skill. And I fail to understand why the morale of the German army drops from 75 in 40 to 70 in 41 and then 65 in 42? Other than as a means to "even" out the Soviet forces to them.

Add to that, the machine gun and rifle fire can and does cause suppression on tanks and turretted vehicles, weapons that have no chance of penetrating the hull can cause serious suppression on these vehicles. The germans will break sooner and maybe rally a little faster. The numbers do not add up to the actual effects and actual events of Summer 41 or summer 42, in my opinion.

[FlashfyreSP]

Perception isn't necessarily reality. Perception is that Germany had the better forces; reality is that Germany underestimated the fighting abilities of the Russians. Luck, exceptional Leadership, and better tactics gave Germany it's initial successes; once the Eastern Front began to grind away at this, and as the Russians learned the lessons of mechanized warfare, the German success rate dropped.

The game doesn't, and shouldn't, account for strategic aspects of the historical conflict. It's not built to recreate the results of the war, but to allow exploration of it. Who would want to ever play a true recreation, knowing that they would always lose? The game is more about the player's tactical skill at using his forces, not just who had the bigger gun.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Following is the German and soviet Experience/Morale/Leader ratings

I did the Germans from 39 and started the Soviet in 41.

German/ Soviet

exp/morale/leader rating per year

39 55/75/70 not checked
40 65/75/75 not checked
41 70/70/75 60/65/65
42 70/65/75 65/65/65 Note the German morale dropped
43 70/70/75 70/70/65
44 65/70/75 70/75/70
45 65/65/70 70/75/70

Except the 39 value all were checked in June of the effected year ( 39 was September)

Unless one takes elite units there is little difference between German and Soviet forces.

you are missing some ratings here it appears.

these ratings are all subjective, and will never please everyone, and forever be a topic of debate.

anyway...

German Troop experience
39-45
55/65/70/70/70/65/65

Soviet 39-45
50/55/60/65/70/70/70


I see some differences here?
In 1941-42 the Germans are superior to the Russians.
then came Stalingrad, by 43 the Russian Soldiers were just as good as the German soldier.
am I missing something?

as you see early in the war, the Soviets are behind the Germans, but eventually catch and pass them.

Last discussion by me on the ratings, everyone will never agree or be happy about them.
[:D]

[Twotribes]

Explain please, why the loss in Morale from 40 to 41 and again from 41 to 42 in the German Army?

As for luck? I seriously doubt one can attribute luck to an army for nearly 2 years. The vast majority of german tanks in 41 were armed with 37 mm yet they managed to beat the better gunned and armored Soviet tanks consistantly from 41 to 43. I would say that would be training , morale and leadership. Morale is exactly the same for the German and soviet forcs starting in 42 with the Soviets getting the edge by 44.

Experience is only 10 points different in 41, meaning half the german force and half the Soviet force will have a similiar level of experience unless you changed the way the game randomly assigns a number as experience.

In 42 the difference is 5 points. The Soviets were no where near equal to the Germans in 42, unless we again attribute 6 or more months of fighting as having been pure luck.

While this is a game and the weapon systems were generally at par or better for the Soviets in the early years, the reality of the war is that SOMETHING made them not preform at that ability. This game uses experience, morale and leadership to make the difference. I would argue that 41 and 42 differences are not going to allow a noticable difference in the armies. Especially the Morale.

Leadership remains higher for the Germans the whole war except in 45 when they equal each other. That would seem to be alright.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Explain please, why the loss in Morale from 40 to 41 and again from 41 to 42 in the German Army?

As for luck? I seriously doubt one can attribute luck to an army for nearly 2 years. The vast majority of german tanks in 41 were armed with 37 mm yet they managed to beat the better gunned and armored Soviet tanks consistantly from 41 to 43. I would say that would be training , morale and leadership. Morale is exactly the same for the German and soviet forcs starting in 42 with the Soviets getting the edge by 44.

Experience is only 10 points different in 41, meaning half the german force and half the Soviet force will have a similiar level of experience unless you changed the way the game randomly assigns a number as experience.

In 42 the difference is 5 points. The Soviets were no where near equal to the Germans in 42, unless we again attribute 6 or more months of fighting as having been pure luck.

While this is a game and the weapon systems were generally at par or better for the Soviets in the early years, the reality of the war is that SOMETHING made them not preform at that ability. This game uses experience, morale and leadership to make the difference. I would argue that 41 and 42 differences are not going to allow a noticable difference in the armies. Especially the Morale.

Leadership remains higher for the Germans the whole war except in 45 when they equal each other. That would seem to be alright.

are you talking troop morale or leader morale???
German Leader morale actually goes up from 41-42
Nort Africa is figured in the ratings as well, not just Eastern Europe dont forget.
Also would your morale go up or down if you thought you had won the war and now suddenly were told you had to invade the Soviet Union!
anyway as stated these ratings are subjective and will never please evryone.

I really hate trying to copy things or edit anything in this new forum format BTW!!!
[:@]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Speaking of the "Ivan" juggernaut.

Just checked the Fire Control and Range Finder numbers on German and Soviet Tanks and Tank Destroyers. They are pretty much the same, the early German Tanks through Pz III E all have FC 4 and RF 2

The Pz III G to M have FC 4 and RF 3

All early Soviet tanks have FC 4 and RF 2 Except one very early T-28 model with a 1 for RF.

All but one model of T-34 have FC 4 and RF 3

All but one model of KV-1 have FC 4 and RF 3 By 44 most Soviet tanks have 4/4 or 4/5 so the 4/6 and 4/7 of the germans is not noticable then either.

Basicly since the crew morale and training have been upped also there is no difference between German and Soviet tanks, well except that historicly the Germans beat the better armored and gunned Soviet Tanks in the first year with little problem.

I would advice anyone playing the Germans NOT to be historical.

The true test of a unit's ability to fight isn't these values; it's the Experience and Skill ratings of the commanders. Russian tanks had gun sights and rangefinding equipment, just like the German tanks did. They both had rangefinding equipment; while the Russian gear was not as high-quality as the German gear, it worked, and the Russians got good at using them.

This has been the trouble with the game over the years; using these stats to artificially "balance" the sides, in response to a lot of "perceived" history. Remember too that the base game code was SPIII, a modern-era game, which was built to cover units from WWII through the 21st Century. That means that these ratings, above 3 or 4, are approaching modern-day tanks with onboard computers and laser rangefinders. The ratings are an abstract value representing the technology of the period; don't read too much into them, or make the mistake of thinking that each increase in the number is a samll improvement in technology or quality. These ratings, for the most part, are subjective.

Edited for sentence structure error.

I question the Soviet optics right into 1945 as ever being near the quality of Zeiss Ikon..(This was the brand used in German equipment) and in its' day was considered the best in the world.
Zeiss Ikon lost its' quality when the factory was absorbed into East Germany and the factory became a real crapfest. Ask anybody who knew cameras and lenses in the early fifties.

[Twotribes]

There are 3 listed stats.

Experience....... the German and Soviets are only 10 points apart on this in 41 and only 5 points apart in 42. The way the game assigns experience is a random spread around the base number. I dont remember if the spread is 5 points each way or 10 points.

Lets assume 5 points each way. This means the Germans will have 65 to 75 experience , if random is done correctly the average will be half above 70, half below 70. The Soviets will have a force which ranges from 55 to 65. Again half above 60 and half below 60. This means that roughly half the two armies will be nearly the same experience level.

Fine it is subjective, but you cant convince me that the Soviet Army in 41 and most of 42 was nearly as well trained as the German Army.

Morale............... Due to the loss of morale in 41 from 40 and again a loss in 42 from 41, the German and Soviet Army have the same morale as each other in 42 and 43 with the soviets gaining the edge in 44 and 45. Again I argue that in the 2 years 41 and 42 the soviets did not historically present a face to the world that would make one believe that for the whole war both forces were basicly equal in resolve and ability of individual squads and vehicles to take fire and not break. Nor that the Soviets were as quick to recover in 41 and 42 once broken This is even more important then Experience. It is used to determine ( as I understand it) whether or not a unit falters or breaks and ceases to be effective in combat until rallied ( which as I understand it takes the leadership rating to do)

The third stat is leadership........... Again the difference between german and soviet leadership numbers are small 10 points in 41, 42 and 43. 43 isnt a problem on any of the numbers, it is clear that by 43 the Soviets had learned their lessons and were able to stand toe to toe with most of the German army. In 41 though , with the manner in which combat occurs the small difference means Soviet forces will rally nearly as fast as German forces. I argue this simply is not the case. Sure the Soviet forces were rallied AFTER a battle was over ( those not trapped in a pocket somewhere) but experience and morale are exactly what gave the Germans the edge with lesser equipment.

The combined effects of making nearly all tanks the same in Fire Control and Range Finder AND making the Experience and Morale nearly the same, is that the Soviet Army will put up a tougher fight then they did historicly.

I dont play this game to see if a PZ III E is equal to a T-34... it wasnt. But in 41 the Germans used them and the Pz 35 and PZ 38 and won against the T-34 because of training ( experience) and Morale.

Believe me, if the individual playing the Germans doesnt use his tanks right against T-34's even if the morale and experience are closer to the reality of the day, he will lose. As it is now, instead of 2 years of winning the germans face 2 years that they were succesful in with losses.

The Soviet advantage was NOT training and morale in 1941 or even 42, it was numbers and better equipment.( sans optics and radios).

The Soviets had good morale, dont get me wrong, BUT the Germans had a lot better and this game now does not reflect that.

[FlashfyreSP]

Again, I ask: Do you want a true-to-history recreation of every battle, or something to explore possible outcomes?
You sound as if you believe that the Russian force should consistently lose from 41-42 because of their equipment and their tactics, not their failed strategic actions. A battle can be won, and many have been won, by soldiers on the field, but the campaign can be lost by the generals and civilians who direct them.

There is more to this than just the Eastern Front as well. These ratings must address events in other theaters, as well as the home front. Morale, for example, isn't limited to just what happens to a soldier in the field; it's also affected when he gets that "Dear Johann" letter, or hears his mother has been killed in an air raid. Cumulative effects and all that...

[Twotribes]

I want a historical game. One that as accurately as possible reflects the reality of the time. The Soviets were neither as well trained nor as effective as the game depicts, especially in the years 41 and 42.

Anyone with half a brain knows that the Soviet T-34 was a better tank then the German tanks at least until they got to the 75 mm gun ( and then its armor was still all around better) Something else has to account for the victories that the Germans made, made on a tactical level.

The game assigns in the campaign mode near equal forces unless one tampers with the settings. My complaint is that the Tanks and other Armored vehicles fight better than they ever did. It has nothing to do with tactics or strategic concerns ( this game is not strategic). The combination of making the tanks nearly identical in optics and Fire control AND making the Experience and Morale nearly the same so early in the war means that while you have made the Soviets more balanced you have thrown out any resemblence to history.

Soviet Tanks simply were not crewed with troops as experienced or capable nor with optics and fire control as the versions since the mid 7.what ever has made them.

There were of course exceptions, but they were few and far between in 41 and 42.

I dont necassarily want to win every battle. But I dont want to get beaten by troops that didnt exsist. As I have stated, poor tactics on the players part will lead to losses even in 41 and 42 with more accurate reflections of the Soviet troops and optics.

For game purposes you have made the Soviets more able to hold their own. That is nice if one wants to play with what if's but it total skews the reality of the actual war.

But it is unimportant, I understand where your coming from. I will make adjustments as I can in my games when I play. But please dont pretend this is an accurate representation of WW2 on the eastern front especially in 41 and 42.