AE's price

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: mjk428

I expected AE to be $30-$40 since it's still using the same old engine and IMO it is just a mega-mod. For instance: Still having to play at low resolutions, even though 1920X1200 is common now, screams "MOD" to me. That's not a shot at the developers who I'm sure did amazing things with what they had to work with.

What do you mean by "mod"? I mean, when I or someone tinkers with the data and graphics of an existing scenario or campaign in a game using the editor that is usually referred to as a "mod". But going in and tinkering with hard code and stuff like that, isn't that something more than just a "mod"? [&:]

"mega-mod"

A "mod" is a modification of an original program - even if modified beyond all recognition. AFAIK, AE uses WitP as its base engine. There's nothing derogatory meant in my use of the term. However, there are certain pre-conceived notions that come with "mods" vs "new" games. One of which is that if AE was really new it would sensibly take advantage of current display resolutions.

Matrix has put themselves in a box by on the one hand saying that AE stands on its own two feet and on the other requiring the previous game be installed to run the "new" game. They have every right to do as they see fit but they seem to be blazing a brand new trail with this particular business strategy.

Also to put things in perspective War Plan Orange is $45-55 and it is no where near as complex a reworking of the game as AE. How can anyone expect AE to be cheaper than WPO considering the amount of resources that went into it. Granted WPO is a standalone game and doesn't require WITP to run. I don't happen to agree with making it a "requirement" to have WITP to play AE either but that is Matrix's prerogative. I say if someone wants to jump in head first and try to play AE only to find out they can't handle the complexity, let them and let them get stuck with the game.

The bolded pretty much answers your question but also:

New Expansion for War in the Pacific with More Detail, More History, More Features!

http://www.matrixgames.com/news.asp?nid=468

I don't expect "Expansions" to cost almost as much as the original.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: mjk428

I expected AE to be $30-$40 since it's still using the same old engine and IMO it is just a mega-mod. For instance: Still having to play at low resolutions, even though 1920X1200 is common now, screams "MOD" to me. That's not a shot at the developers who I'm sure did amazing things with what they had to work with.

What do you mean by "mod"? I mean, when I or someone tinkers with the data and graphics of an existing scenario or campaign in a game using the editor that is usually referred to as a "mod". But going in and tinkering with hard code and stuff like that, isn't that something more than just a "mod"? [&:]

"mega-mod"

A "mod" is a modification of an original program - even if modified beyond all recognition. AFAIK, AE uses WitP as its base engine. There's nothing derogatory meant in my use of the term. However, there are certain pre-conceived notions that come with "mods" vs "new" games. One of which is that if AE was really new it would sensibly take advantage of current display resolutions.

Matrix has put themselves in a box by on the one hand saying that AE stands on its own two feet and on the other requiring the previous game be installed to run the "new" game. They have every right to do as they see fit but they seem to be blazing a brand new trail with this particular business strategy.

Also to put things in perspective War Plan Orange is $45-55 and it is no where near as complex a reworking of the game as AE. How can anyone expect AE to be cheaper than WPO considering the amount of resources that went into it. Granted WPO is a standalone game and doesn't require WITP to run. I don't happen to agree with making it a "requirement" to have WITP to play AE either but that is Matrix's prerogative. I say if someone wants to jump in head first and try to play AE only to find out they can't handle the complexity, let them and let them get stuck with the game.

The bolded pretty much answers your question but also:

New Expansion for War in the Pacific with More Detail, More History, More Features!

http://www.matrixgames.com/news.asp?nid=468

I don't expect "Expansions" to cost almost as much as the original.

Well, the Close Combat series was basically one expansion of the same engine upon the other. Each one cost full price. Panzer General, Allied General and Pacific General shared game engines. HPS games' Panzer Campaign series are simply expansions of the same engine but still cost full price. There are a lot of games out there that share game engines which are all full price regardless. I mean, I wonder if games like C&C I utilize the same fundamental engine as C&C II. The cosmetics and play are a bit different but they are maybe equally priced version of the same overall engine. I don't know...

HPS games recently came out with a new series called Total War in Europe. Some of the scenarios in the TWiE series are already covered in the Panzer Campaign series only the scale appears different. The interface of TWiE even looks similar to the Panzer Campaign series. For that matter AE has changed its scale as well. 1 hex = 40 miles instead of 60 (IIRC).

Also look at WPO. It wasn't bundled with WITP because it basically has the same complexity as WITP. Matrix believes that AE is so much more complex than WITP that it requires one as a stepping stone to the other.

I think it is one thing to have expected the price to be cheaper but to continue to expect the price to be cheaper (given what we know about the development of the game) just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you're simply saying you once expected the price to be cheaper then I probably did too. But if you still expect the price to be cheaper I don't see why, given the idiosyncrasies of the game.

[Dixie]

It doesn't really matter what I say, it'll have no bearing on the situation but still:  Making it a requirement to own WitP first, whilst not an issue for some, is not a great idea by any stretch of the imagination.  The price doesn't really bother me, but why should a new customer get charged for two games, one of which they will probably never play?  If someone buys a game and it's too hard or complex for them, then that's too bad.  I would think that almost all those people who are interested in the game are going to be aware of the types of games Matrix releases and will know it's going to be complex.  If they aren't aware then they can ask about the complexity...  After all, time spent in recce is seldom wasted. 


In essence, the price of AE:  I don't care.  Making new customers buy both games:  Bad idea.

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I think it is one thing to have expected the price to be cheaper but to continue to expect the price to be cheaper (given what we know about the development of the game) just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you're simply saying you once expected the price to be cheaper then I probably did too. But if you still expect the price to be cheaper I don't see why, given the idiosyncrasies of the game.

[:)]

Of course I don't still expect it to be priced around $40. I now expect it to be $60.

The tipoff in my original post should have been the use of the past tense "expected".

[:D]

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I think it is one thing to have expected the price to be cheaper but to continue to expect the price to be cheaper (given what we know about the development of the game) just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you're simply saying you once expected the price to be cheaper then I probably did too. But if you still expect the price to be cheaper I don't see why, given the idiosyncrasies of the game.

[:)]

Of course I don't still expect it to be priced around $40. I now expect it to be $60.

The tipoff in my original post should have been the use of the past tense "expected".

[:D]

You got me there. [:o]

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: kafka
Would you recommend AE to those too who exclusively play against the AI?

If you enjoy WITP and like to play against the AI, I would _definitely_ recommend AE. The AI in WITP gets fairly stagnant after a while, mainly acting on the defensive. The AI in AE is much better than the WITP AI. It is still not as good as a human opponent, but it will give you a major wake up call if you're used to the WITP AI. And it will not stagnate, it's active through the whole war.

Even though I have already decided to buy AE, now you are singing my song because there is no way I would be playing PBEM. Hurray!!

[goodwoodrw]

Sometimes in sport, the pre entertainment is almost as good as the the big game. This thread is no different. If AE is as entertaining as this thread, Matrix is on a winner [:D][:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Aside from the fact that, if you define this broadly enough, the entire software industry and every "upgrade" or "expansion pack" ever sold would be illegal, I had to read down only a few lines to find out why this would not apply.

3. The seller must have sufficient economic power with respect to the tying product to appreciably restrain free competition in the market for the tied product.

Yeah, right. Please explain how were are restraining free competition for War in the Pacific?

Since you asked, because you own the copyright. Nobody else can sell WITP. You have 100% power. Tying does not have to apply only to two products made by the same firm. It can apply when Firm A refuses to sell its product to customer Z unless Z also buys Firm B's product. If Firm B sells boat-loads of that product with or without A's tying, then there's no problem.

4. The tying arrangement must affect a "not insubstantial" amount of commerce.

By normal market definitions, we do not qualify (unfortunately, I'd rather be "not insubstantial").

As I understand case law, the test is not absolute size, or size vis a vis a market leader like MS. It's simply that the economic impact is not de minimus. This is a legal term of art that has no hard and fast definition. It's situational.

What we're doing is really no different than any game company saying "if you want this expansion, you need to own this game" except that we're a niche company with a niche product.

No, the diffeence is you engineered the product to NOT be an expansion. You added code to force the install check; you've said here that AE does not share code with WITP. A "normal" expansion won't run without its parent. AE would. That doesn't help your case.

For some reason, when we do it, people get up in arms. Seriously, I'd rather that we just drop this part of the discussion.

And I will. Usenet is better for this type of discussion anyway. It seems as if some posters here have trouble following.

[Flying Tiger]

ORIGINAL: BASB

Sometimes in sport, the pre entertainment is almost as good as the the big game. This thread is no different. If AE is as entertaining as this thread, Matrix is on a winner [:D][:D]

i'm with you mate. This is fantastic. JWE gets an official warning. Even T got put back in his box. Will be sad when the game actually arrives and all this fun ends!!

[Tophat1815]

 For the pain and suffering of caused by reading this thread I think the Devs should raise the price by $10.

[Panjack]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, this is getting ridiculous....

Erik,

I was not accusing Matrix Games of doing anything ethically wrong. But your pricing scheme immediately struck me as a tying scheme, which has led some companies to incur huge legal expenses.

If it was my money on the line I'd be interested in consulting a lawyer about this pricing scheme and, perhaps, figure out some alternative scheme that avoided even the appearance of tying. This would be easily done.

My sole intent was to raise a legal issue you were likely unaware of...and this is a legal issue that can't be resolved by a quick read by a layperson of something posted on the Internet as familiarity with relevant case law is required in order to give good advice.

[Graycompany]

Well, think of it this way..... The Cost of AE is $130.00. For that price, they throw in WITP. (as a learning tool) For those of you that already have WITP, special for you my friends, one time only offer, of $70.00. There problem solved. Expansion, Mod, sequel, evil step twin, what is in a name. Fact is, this is what is being offered, very easy, take it or leave it. Nobody is forcing you to buy it. Feel free to complain, but for what reason? We all make (or not) purchases every day. If we really want something, we find a way to get it. If the price is to high, then the desire is either there to find that way to get it, or pass. I have supported Matrix on a number of purchases, and my desk is full of computer games I bought, and they sucked, there was no support, no patches. Matrix has supported every game I have bought. Forge of Freddom was not very good when it came out. After patching, it is one of the best games i have played for that era. I look at AE as a Game I was going to buy, I Think Erik has stated that Matrix is doing this for people who have WITP, for those that came after, as I started with this post, the price will be higher than those that already have WITP.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Panjack

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
Go to law school and you will learn it is without a doubt legal.

I haven't gone to law school. But I disagree that is obviously legal if only because federal anti-trust law makes some types of tying contracts illegal. Perhaps the Sherman and Clayton Acts are not relevant to this particular situation, but if they are and Matrix Games gets hauled into court that might be the end of Matrix Games.

If I was them I'd consult with a good lawyer before following their proposed pricing scheme.

While serving in Germany for the U.S.Army, one of the fellas I served with, (in another platoon) was visited by his well off parents.
They asked "Eddie"(not his real name) what he would like before they went back home.
"Eddie" said he wanted a Matra Simca, 3 seater, low slung sports coupe.
With nary a hesitation, the purchase was made that same morning.
The parents left and for about a week "Eddie" raced the environs of Frankfurt am Main, always with 2 scantily clad babes on his lap and in the passenger seats.
Well, at the end of the week, "Eddie" was brought back to the Kaserne in a green and white Polizei Opel, as he had married his expensive Matra Simca to the lower portion of a rocky soil adjacent to the river Main.
His passengers were hospitalized.

See, he could BUY the car, but he could not DRIVE the car.
He knew better, or you would think so.
Hell, the guy was serving as a Military Policeman, so he knew what the rules were for the road, but he just did not think they really applied to HIM, and his expensive machine.

For the sake of argument, let us suppose that Matrix knew the AE project was going to be so involved, that in order to avoid the demands for merchandise returns, they intended to sell it only to those persons who were already familiar with the WITP engine, and had already invested the time to learn the BASICS.
Matrix is a commercial entity in an already selectively burgeoned market, and the current economy only makes their gamble more pronounced.
With NO like firm in the market, when they go, we are screwed.

Apparently, you do not understand that many of us on this forum have high posting numbers, which reflect a quantum of *contribution* to this game.
The entire AE team is made up of fellow forumites who have been around since Diogenes was looking for matches.(You get the idea).

Your single suggestion seems presumptive, and suggests Matrixgames just opened in the back of a hat shop, perhaps?

The forum you have joined includes every educated profession on every inhabited continent of the globe.
This includes lawyers.

We forumites do appreciate newcomers, and the fresh blood they bring, but like Clint Eastwood said "Every man should know his limitations".

Your legal advice is not needed.

panjack.... I think this is under control... let it go

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Panjack
My sole intent was to raise a legal issue you were likely unaware of...and this is a legal issue that can't be resolved by a quick read by a layperson of something posted on the Internet as familiarity with relevant case law is required in order to give good advice.

I appreciate your intentions were good, but I have no idea who you are or what your legal experience is either. If you would like to explain to me why I should consider this a realistic concern, please e-mail me at erikr@matrixgames.com and continue the discussion there. If any other lawyers want to e-mail me and chime in, feel free, but let's not continue this here please.

Regards,

- Erik

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: rroberson
I think that's the thing that has me annoyed about the price.

Think about it. As a standalone game it would cost you over $100.00, probably closer to$130.00. This way current owners get a decent price, it's only the few people who haven't already bought WitP that have to pony up that amount. And they did say a discount on WitP would be offered for those people. I mean common, it's been 5 years since WitP was released, how many fence sitters can there be?

Jim

[philabos]

The original Pacific War sold for $69.99 in 1992.
As I recall, but sure someone will prove me wrong, it sold out at that price because the publisher underestimated the demand.

[AW1Steve]

I fine the price to be more than reasonable. And I personally would probably still buy it at twice the price!

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I fine the price to be more than reasonable. And I personally would probably still buy it at twice the price!

That makes 2 of us.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: warrenup

The original Pacific War sold for $69.99 in 1992.
As I recall, but sure someone will prove me wrong, it sold out at that price because the publisher underestimated the demand.

But I think the original WITP sold for $40.00 in 1978. That was actually a fairly high price in those days.

[Nikademus]

Gary Grigsby's then mammoth wargame (8-bit) War in Russia sold for $80.00 in 1985. (nearly double the usually price for an SSI title)

It was worth every penny.