Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) GHC Victory

[KWG]

""Do the same exploit for 4 turns and 25-30k loses and you have 100,000 to 120,000 in german loses
to bombing and nother 10k per turn to 2-3 attacks = 140,000 to 160,000 and allies lose 20-25k " "




This is the end of my Week 51 Air phase showing losses at 13,668.

Where and how do I find the rest to get the 25-30K per turn losses to bombing ?

[KWG]

""Do the same exploit for 4 turns and 25-30k loses and you have 100,000 to 120,000 in german loses
to bombing and nother 10k per turn to 2-3 attacks = 140,000 to 160,000 and allies lose 20-25k " "


Ground phase, not showing the last battle by 4th armor (+4000). If Iam only getting "nother 10k per turn to 2-3 attacks" per ground phase where did those losses come from ? "and 25-30k loses to bombing"

[KWG]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

Well..I booted up an old test scenario where I was up against a German line in the Netherlands.

Hitting 9 hexes a total of 267 times with the entire allied bomber force (including fighter bombers) I inflicted 20,624 Men, 303 guns, and 59 AFV's

But I lost 514 aircraft. It is interesting to not that the dug in Germans in the Polder couldn't be dislodged.

EDIT: Rain (and less planes able to bomb) causes about half as many as last turn to hit the same targets.
Losses inflicted drops dramatically to 3900 men, 45 Guns, and 12 AFV's...I suspect because there is a lot less men to kill.

EDIT: Third turn saw around 8000 men killed by bombing. This time the hex was able to be taken in attack. TOE's for the Germans in the area are around 50%.
I am thinking that both terrain and fortifications do little to prevent casualties. The biggest way to slow the bleed is to use flak, but that flak will take damage as well.

Good stuff 20k to bombing, which is still lower then KGW's 25-30K per turn not counting interdiction just bombing. I am guessing hes better at it then u and me as my results are a little lower then yours.

So the air force can inflict turn after turn 20 to 30K loses and the ground forces only need to attack the few hexes
that have been bombing to rout the units there which inflicts more loses as they retreat.

Again I can see this being historical for a turn or 2, but this is clearly unhistorical as it can be done for months on end.

Its plain an simple, it does not match up to what happened historically - most loses were caused by ground combat not 1 to ground combat and 5 to bombing. This is data over a month not a single turn.

The lose ratio is unhistorical and the loses caused by bombing is unhistorical that's the data from me and others

panzer lehr
Bayerlein left a remarkable account of the effects of the COBRA bombing and ground assault on his already war-weary command.
In response to postwar interrogation he wrote:

We had the main losses by pattern bombing, less by artillery, still less by tanks and smaller arms.
The actual losses of dead and wounded were approximately:

by bombing 50%
by artillery 30%
by other weapons 20%


/////////
Italy - heavy bombers used alot in ground bombing
"A bombardment by 1,233 heavy bombers of the Fifteenth Air Force saturated the German defenses by dropping nearly 25,000 bombs within five miles of Allied Forces."

Its plain an simple, it does not match up to what happened historically - most loses were caused by ground combat not 1 to ground combat and 5 to bombing.

Historically most German losses came from vain attacks against Allied Forces, not German Forces sitting in trenches taking low losses, racking up points while running down the clock, plain an simple, it does not match up to what happened historically.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

Well..I booted up an old test scenario where I was up against a German line in the Netherlands.

Hitting 9 hexes a total of 267 times with the entire allied bomber force (including fighter bombers) I inflicted 20,624 Men, 303 guns, and 59 AFV's

But I lost 514 aircraft. It is interesting to not that the dug in Germans in the Polder couldn't be dislodged.

EDIT: Rain (and less planes able to bomb) causes about half as many as last turn to hit the same targets.
Losses inflicted drops dramatically to 3900 men, 45 Guns, and 12 AFV's...I suspect because there is a lot less men to kill.

EDIT: Third turn saw around 8000 men killed by bombing. This time the hex was able to be taken in attack. TOE's for the Germans in the area are around 50%.
I am thinking that both terrain and fortifications do little to prevent casualties. The biggest way to slow the bleed is to use flak, but that flak will take damage as well.

Good stuff 20k to bombing, which is still lower then KGW's 25-30K per turn not counting interdiction just bombing. I am guessing hes better at it then u and me as my results are a little lower then yours.

So the air force can inflict turn after turn 20 to 30K loses and the ground forces only need to attack the few hexes
that have been bombing to rout the units there which inflicts more loses as they retreat.

Again I can see this being historical for a turn or 2, but this is clearly unhistorical as it can be done for months on end.

Its plain an simple, it does not match up to what happened historically - most loses were caused by ground combat not 1 to ground combat and 5 to bombing. This is data over a month not a single turn.

The lose ratio is unhistorical and the loses caused by bombing is unhistorical that's the data from me and others

panzer lehr
Bayerlein left a remarkable account of the effects of the COBRA bombing and ground assault on his already war-weary command.
In response to postwar interrogation he wrote:

We had the main losses by pattern bombing, less by artillery, still less by tanks and smaller arms.
The actual losses of dead and wounded were approximately:

by bombing 50%
by artillery 30%
by other weapons 20%


/////////
Italy - heavy bombers used alot in ground bombing
"A bombardment by 1,233 heavy bombers of the Fifteenth Air Force saturated the German defenses by dropping nearly 25,000 bombs within five miles of Allied Forces."

Its plain an simple, it does not match up to what happened historically - most loses were caused by ground combat not 1 to ground combat and 5 to bombing.

Historically most German losses came from vain attacks against Allied Forces, not German Forces sitting in trenches taking low losses, racking up points while running down the clock, plain an simple, it does not match up to what happened historically.

As history shows operation Cobra over a week, 25–31 July 1944.

As I stated I am talking loses during the campaign - I am not cherry picking one operation.

As I stated most loses during the Normandy operation (3 months) were from ground combat and the loss ratio was

http://www.britannica.com/event/Normand ... n-of/40555

You need to find data that supports your agreement and does not support my in game and historical data, but thanks you for helping.

Historically speaking Cobra lasted a week and not 4 weeks and counting or 3 months

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

""Do the same exploit for 4 turns and 25-30k loses and you have 100,000 to 120,000 in german loses
to bombing and nother 10k per turn to 2-3 attacks = 140,000 to 160,000 and allies lose 20-25k " "


Ground phase, not showing the last battle by 4th armor (+4000). If Iam only getting "nother 10k per turn to 2-3 attacks" per ground phase where did those losses come from ? "and 25-30k loses to bombing"

YOU not me called what your posting FOW, the numbers simply don't add up which is WAD.

As all the players that have been around for yrs know you can not track loses using the current turn loss #'s - its called FOW.

You can only track loses using battles tab and count the battles or use total loses turn by turn.

example.

You finished turn 51 I get turn 52 and in commanders report I can simply open the tab and count the 4 battles.

Total loses 12k to Ground combat total loses for last turn

Turn 51
WA Loses: 273,000
GHC Loses: 326,000


Turn 52 -10 VP 21
WA Loses: 280,000 7,000
GHC Loses: 362,000 36,000

So loses to air bombing 36,000 - 12,000 = 24,000

I hope that cleared that up for you.

Just remember FOW = Fog of War.

[Peltonx]

Recent analysis of ground combat deaths in various wars has shown that, for WW2,
military wounds and deaths were caused primarily by four sources:


Small Arms fire: 5-10% of wounds, <1% of deaths
Mortars, Grenades, Mines, and other lightweight explosive devices: 40-50% of wounds, 20-40% deaths
Artillery (primarily blast and direct fragmentation): 30-50% of wounds, 50-60% of deaths
Bombs: 5-10% of wounds, < 5% of deaths

The amounts varied heavily by the particular battle, as locale terrain plays a huge roll in determining both what
weapons are prevalent, and the effectiveness of each.
For instance, artillery had a very low impact on deaths in the various Pacific island campaigns, where the
vast majority of casualties were from mortars, grenades, and mines, followed by small arms. However,
in the various Western Desert campaigns, artillery had an even higher total (due to the open terrain and hard rocks,
which amplified artillery's effectiveness).



Major General J. B. A. Bailey, British Army (retired) wrote:


From the middle of the eighteenth century to the middle of the nineteenth, artillery is judged to have accounted for perhaps 50% of battlefield casualties. In the sixty years preceding 1914, this figure was probably as low as 10 percent. The remaining 90 percent fell to small arms, whose range and accuracy had come to rival those of artillery. ... [By WWI] The British Royal Artillery, at over one million men, grew to be larger than the Royal Navy. Bellamy (1986), pp. 1–7, cites the percentage of casualties caused by artillery in various theaters since 1914: in the First World War, 45 percent of Russian casualties and 58 percent of British casualties on the Western Front; in the Second World War, 75 percent of British casualties in North Africa and 51 percent of Soviet casualties (61 percent in 1945) and 70 percent of German casualties on the Eastern Front; and in the Korean War, 60 percent of US casualties, including those inflicted by mortars.[36]

—&#8201;J. B. A. Bailey (2004). Field artillery and firepower



Looking for more data but looks like 10% of loses were caused by "bombing" and 50-70% by artillery fire depending on weather/terrain ect ect.

[KWG]

As history shows operation Cobra over a week, 25–31 July 1944.

" As I stated I am talking loses during the campaign - I am not cherry picking one operation.

As I stated most loses during the Normandy operation (3 months) were from ground combat and the loss ratio was

http://www.britannica.com/event/Normand ... n-of/40555

You need to find data that supports your agreement and does not support my in game and historical data, but thanks you for helping.

Historically speaking Cobra lasted a week and not 4 weeks and counting or 3 months "


Exactly Iam doing Cobra more than one 1 week SO my numbers will be for more than 1 week.


If the Allies only ground attacked 3 times the month of July 1944, Does that mean Tam only allowed to ground attack 3 times the month of july?

[KWG]

"As all the players that have been around for yrs know you can not track loses using the current turn loss #'s - its called FOW. "



I just play, And Ive said Iam not that good. If given a test a on the rules and workings of the game I would be very lucky to get a passing grade.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

As history shows operation Cobra over a week, 25–31 July 1944.

" As I stated I am talking loses during the campaign - I am not cherry picking one operation.

As I stated most loses during the Normandy operation (3 months) were from ground combat and the loss ratio was

http://www.britannica.com/event/Normand ... n-of/40555

You need to find data that supports your agreement and does not support my in game and historical data, but thanks you for helping.

Historically speaking Cobra lasted a week and not 4 weeks and counting or 3 months "


Exactly Iam doing Cobra more than one 1 week SO my numbers will be for more than 1 week.


If the Allies only ground attacked 3 times the month of July 1944, Does that mean Tam only allowed to ground attack 3 times the month of july?

I am trending data in game to see if it matches historical data over time week by week and then month by month and then for the game.

We know what the long term data is about, as many surveys very some what but over all the % are close as with the thread in dev forums on eastern front loses.

Recent analysis of ground combat deaths in various wars has shown that, for WW2,
military wounds and deaths were caused primarily by four sources:


Small Arms fire: 5-10% of wounds, <1% of deaths
Mortars, Grenades, Mines, and other lightweight explosive devices: 40-50% of wounds, 20-40% deaths
Artillery (primarily blast and direct fragmentation): 30-50% of wounds, 50-60% of deaths
Bombs: 5-10% of wounds, < 5% of deaths

The amounts varied heavily by the particular battle, as locale terrain plays a huge roll in determining both what
weapons are prevalent, and the effectiveness of each.
For instance, artillery had a very low impact on deaths in the various Pacific island campaigns, where the
vast majority of casualties were from mortars, grenades, and mines, followed by small arms. However,
in the various Western Desert campaigns, artillery had an even higher total (due to the open terrain and hard rocks,
which amplified artillery's effectiveness).



Major General J. B. A. Bailey, British Army (retired) wrote:


From the middle of the eighteenth century to the middle of the nineteenth, artillery is judged to have accounted for perhaps 50% of battlefield casualties. In the sixty years preceding 1914, this figure was probably as low as 10 percent. The remaining 90 percent fell to small arms, whose range and accuracy had come to rival those of artillery. ... [By WWI] The British Royal Artillery, at over one million men, grew to be larger than the Royal Navy. Bellamy (1986), pp. 1–7, cites the percentage of casualties caused by artillery in various theaters since 1914: in the First World War, 45 percent of Russian casualties and 58 percent of British casualties on the Western Front; in the Second World War, 75 percent of British casualties in North Africa and 51 percent of Soviet casualties (61 percent in 1945) and 70 percent of German casualties on the Eastern Front; and in the Korean War, 60 percent of US casualties, including those inflicted by mortars.[36]

—&#8201;J. B. A. Bailey (2004). Field artillery and firepower

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

"As all the players that have been around for yrs know you can not track loses using the current turn loss #'s - its called FOW. "



I just play, And Ive said Iam not that good. If given a test a on the rules and workings of the game I would be very lucky to get a passing grade.

Lets play on as the game is an interesting test case for pushing the system.

over the years 75% of my game don't do this and are kinda boring.

This is 1 of the 25% that stresses the game and I personally love these games and they bring up heated debate on the forums about the system good or bad and almost always leads to a better system as its weak WAD areas come to light.

[KWG]

As history shows operation Cobra over a week, 25–31 July 1944.

"As I stated I am talking loses during the campaign - I am not cherry picking one operation.

As I stated most loses during the Normandy operation (3 months) were from ground combat and the loss ratio was

http://www.britannica.com/event/Normand ... n-of/40555

You need to find data that supports your agreement and does not support my in game and historical data, but thanks you for helping.

Historically speaking Cobra lasted a week and not 4 weeks and counting or 3 months "




Historically speaking the >1000 planes bombing mission of Cobra lasted less than a day


Same for Goodwood.





So I can only do tactics that will give a historical average over the same time?


I could do very bad attacks, attacking one division at a time massively and suffer the reverse of the ratio? Would that be ahistorical? Therefore not allowed?


Historically most German losses came from vain attacks against Allied Forces, not German Forces sitting in trenches taking low losses, racking up points while running down the clock, plain an simple, it does not match up to what happened historically.

[KWG]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: KWG

"As all the players that have been around for yrs know you can not track loses using the current turn loss #'s - its called FOW. "



I just play, And Ive said Iam not that good. If given a test a on the rules and workings of the game I would be very lucky to get a passing grade.

Lets play on as the game is an interesting test case for pushing the system.

over the years 75% of my game don't do this and are kinda boring.

This is 1 of the 25% that stresses the game and I personally love these games and they bring up heated debate on the forums about the system good or bad and almost always leads to a better system as its weak WAD areas come to light.

WOW thats good to hear. This has been awesome. So different than AI, Its a different world. The unknown is the greatest factor.

[KWG]

Each cherry that its picked adds up to the Jam.



If each battle is a cherry then you get a Jam based on those cherries.


And if the cherries are different than the last harvest then the jam will be different.


Iam going to go eat.

[KWG]

"Looking for more data but looks like 10% of loses were caused by "bombing" and 50-70% by artillery fire depending on weather/terrain ect ect."

Yes, that is because of the TACTICS they used , not just due to the weapons.











Yes Iam Cherrying picking. Iam look at the WW2 orchard and saying I only want the sweetest cherries for my next batch of jam. NOT WW2 jam because that jam has been made from that one batch of cherries which were from the most tart to the most sweet.

So I pick only the variety of sweetest ww2 cherry trees to grow in my orchard for my new jam.

After my cheeries grow and the jam is made I set it next to the WW2 jam on the shelf. Two jars on the shelf...both jam... with different flavor, texture, etc.

Both WW2 jam and MY jam have some of the same cherries, but my jam has more of the sweeter cherries.


///////////////
////////
////

I thought about playing this turn as bad as I can. Do the best things I can do to get the WORST results.

The goal will be to have a Allied to German loss ratio of greater than 20 to 1. Then compare my ALL tart cherry Jam to the semi-sweet cherry WW2 jam.
The results would be very unhistorical, but would it mean the system is flawed?




The only thing Ive done so far this turn is just general checking of unit conditions, how the front looks, depots, formulatating possible strategies then seeing which ones would be the best.

Taken some screenshots.


Have not touched any Air Exection or changed anything.

I just look at my Squadrons - I dont whether to spank them all or hug them.



Even though its Air execution phase, I formulate my ground strategies first so I know how to do the majority of my Air forces.

Do checking of screens and try to keep up with real world numbers as best as I can, And if its Fog of War Iam usually fogged.

Loss screen numbers are comming and going so I keep up with them best I can.

I like looking at the battle detail screens, what fired the most, got in closest, etc. in the ground combat phase





///////////////
//////// SHAEF
//// WEEK 52

Iam going to summit a battle plan for an ground attack and unit bombing in real world detail and how it would apply in War in the West.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

As history shows operation Cobra over a week, 25–31 July 1944.

"As I stated I am talking loses during the campaign - I am not cherry picking one operation.

As I stated most loses during the Normandy operation (3 months) were from ground combat and the loss ratio was

http://www.britannica.com/event/Normand ... n-of/40555

You need to find data that supports your agreement and does not support my in game and historical data, but thanks you for helping.

Historically speaking Cobra lasted a week and not 4 weeks and counting or 3 months "


So I can only do tactics that will give a historical average over the same time?

I could do very bad attacks, attacking one division at a time massively and suffer the reverse of the ratio? Would that be ahistorical? Therefore not allowed?


Historically most German losses came from vain attacks against Allied Forces, not German Forces sitting in trenches taking low losses, racking up points while running down the clock, plain an simple, it does not match up to what happened historically.

PUSH THE SYSTEM

same thing I told liquidsky, sapper, hoooper, MT, TDV ect ect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c3d7QgZr7g

Its nice to see how the code really works.

People hate change, change generally requires a kick in the ass.

The older we are the less we like change.

We still be using windows 1.0 if not for a bunch of pissed off users and people that wanted more in a positive way.

Windows 10.0 dam that's allot of positive change.

morveal and D-man have zero issue with change, they love it which is why WitE 1.0 is 1000x better now then a yr ago.
They don't take things personal - its all about the code and historical data and game data.

They are free and not stuck in the mud = a positive mind set not a negative

[KWG]

Iam not saying You, LiquidSky, Seminole, etc., or me are wrong in evidence we have presented that contradict. Its context.

ORIGINAL: Pelton

PUSH THE SYSTEM

Getting ready to do that.

[KWG]

I have start a AAR Lab thread, in the War Room, to explore some things discussed here.

Pic Heavy, I will be editing the pic that have been added tonight further.


"Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) Mission Lab"

tm.asp?m=3987360

[KWG]

Week 52 June 24, 1944
Rain over Normandy

Urgent Meeting, outside of London, called by KWG . Reminds Churchill to bring us something to drink.

Over the Skys of Normandy:

Fighter/Fighter Bombers 3,400 {Majority are FB}
Bombers 4,666
Recon 435

Total Aircraft 8,501


Covering less than 400 miles 8,501 = 21 aircraft per square mile.

[KWG]

Invasion week 49 and its now week 52.

No Allied planes have flown over the Fatherland

It has been "Springtime for Hitler and Germany" in the skys. The German people could be told they won the war and when they looked up at the skys they would believe it.


Bombing VPs at 3. However its based on total factory points still damaged not just what was bombed last turn. Correct?!
(Total VPs adjust to Axis' VP bug)


Can this be interpreted as the Germans are lacking or using support units for something else? No priority repairs?

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

Invasion week 49 and its now week 52.

No Allied planes have flown over the Fatherland

It has been "Springtime for Hitler and Germany" in the skys. The German people could be told they won the war and when they looked up at the skys they would believe it.


Bombing VPs at 3. However its based on total factory points still damaged not just what was bombed last turn. Correct?!
(Total VPs adjust to Axis' VP bug)


Can this be interpreted as the Germans are lacking or using support units for something else? No priority repairs?

Noper I have a units on every V site and every site in Germany that needs fixing over 15.

So almost every con unit has been fixing a site.

Germany has more then enough pts to free up every division and repair every site being bombed + some before May 44+