Torpedo Attacks in Ports

[mogami]

Hi, As Japan I always set the Betty/Nell in Saigon to Naval attack on turn 1. The reason is POW and Repluse. (and I don't port attack Allied ports on turn 1 except for PH)

[Nikademus]

myself....i always attack Singapore's airfields first in the hopes of catching as many planes on the ground as possible. I have 'faith' [;)] in my covering forces. In one game one of my picket subs even put three torpedoes into PoW.

on 12/8 i set 22nd to Naval Attack

[mogami]

Hi, Singapore does not suffer from the first turn suprise rules (like PH and Clark)
Because I expect the RN to come out of port on Dec 8th I do not tire out my airgroups on Dec 7th.

[Nikademus]

I still usually reap a good bounty of RAF planes anyway. I find it justifies the fatigue.

[Bulldog61]

I've had several occasions where force Z got thru to the transports and one where it was intercepted by the covering force.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Like I said ... Navy design specs ... Mitsubishi aircraft ... 1938

But where did you find these?

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The Japanese did not attack Singapore aka "Pearl Harbor" because on 12/7 and before they had no plans to do so.

Incorrect. Japanese were going to attack british capital ships in Singapore port on 9th dec (at night and with bombs!), mission wasn’t flown due to the known reasons. They attempted to attack Singapore on 8th dec also, in the morning Nells from 22nd Koku Sentai was trying to deliver some bombs on Singapore, but due to the heavy weather mission was aborted. Kanoya Ku was given a task to attack British Eastern Fleet with torps, and idea of Singapore port attack was discussed but was abandoned because Matsunaga thought that bombers would suffer extremely heavy losses, but initial plan was to get Force Z in port, that’s why torpedoes (type 91 kai 2) designed for PH were delivered to Kanoya air group, they quite successfully used them on Force Z, but in the open sea.

Subchaser, I would be really interested in your source. Not that I doubt it, just that early war operations is a particular interest of mine and I am very interested in any new information can get on the subject.

I have no doubt a torp attack was initially considered, It obviously would be the first questioned asked as soon as the arrival of force Z was known. But I have never come across any information that would indicate that planning went much beyond that stage. Does your source indicate what the exact plan of attack was? The feasibility of flight paths, approaches, depths, dock locations, harbor defences, ect..... Did they train on a dummy harbor ala the Pearl Harbor attack force? Keeping in mind they only became aware that the Force Z was going to be deployed at Singapore on Nov.28th, that would only leave about a week to prepare for an attack.

[Mike Solli]

Interesting. The Japanese expected to lose 1/3 of the PH striking force (some 150 planes and pilots, not to mention the ships) yet were unwilling to risk the Nells/Bettys against Singapore.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT


Subchaser, I would be really interested in your source. Not that I doubt it, just that early war operations is a particular interest of mine and I am very interested in any new information can get on the subject.

I have no doubt a torp attack was initially considered, It obviously would be the first questioned asked as soon as the arrival of force Z was known. But I have never come across any information that would indicate that planning went much beyond that stage. Does your source indicate what the exact plan of attack was? The feasibility of flight paths, approaches, depths, dock locations, harbor defences, ect..... Did they train on a dummy harbor ala the Pearl Harbor attack force? Keeping in mind they only became aware that the Force Z was going to be deployed at Singapore on Nov.28th, that would only leave about a week to prepare for an attack.

You can read the Japanese operational orders on the Hyperwar website. See http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/index.html#usn

This is an EXCELLENT site with many, many primary and secondary sources.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Pascal

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Like I said ... Navy design specs ... Mitsubishi aircraft ... 1938

But where did you find these?

So, Mr. Frag, I'm still waiting and anxious to know. Where did you find these? Where can others of us obtain these?

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
I'm just saying that the reasonology that "they didnt' attack the harbor with torps on 12/7 (or 8)" therefore they couldn't" has some flaws in it. Hence the hindsight factor. The japanese were being cautious and conservative and trying to decide "exactly" how to deal with Force Z.

Well Nik, I may not be from Missouri but someone is going to have to show me before I change my stuborn ass.

Here what we got. I say a Pearl Harbor style attack was not attempted because of timming ( It was night ) A torp attack was never seriously considered for all the reason mentioned.

Subchaser has a source that indicates it was at least considered but rejected due to fear of excessive losses. IMO it was because more sober minds knew they stood a snowballs chance in hell in pulling it off.

My source indicates that the Kanyo Airgroup was loading bombs onto the aircraft for a planned attack on Singpapore Naval base on the 9th when it was discovered that Force Z was out of harbor and heading north. They quickly "changed" over to torps and began their frantic search for the ships. This indicates that as late as on the 9th, despite the clear and present danger of Force Z. the IJN was only planning on attacking the ships in Harbor with bombs.

Anyway looking forward to our game. Just keep those bombers off port attack on turn one.[:)]

[Pascal_slith]

It would be nice if everyone posted his original source when stating things. A few of us would like to be able to look them up on our own. Please? [:)]

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Pascal

You can read the Japanese operational orders on the Hyperwar website. See http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/index.html#usn

This is an EXCELLENT site with many, many primary and secondary sources.

Pascal, I cant seem to find anywhere on that site the operational orders for the Malayan campaign in general or a planned torp attack on Singapore Naval Base specifically. Can you direct me to it.

[Mr.Frag]

Pascal, like everyone else, I swiped it from someone else [;)]

If you want to contact the author and see where he swiped it from ... jeremy.lee@btinternet.com

The numbers jive quite nicely with all the other sites that happen to have other data on the subject.

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Singapore does not suffer from the first turn suprise rules (like PH and Clark)
Because I expect the RN to come out of port on Dec 8th I do not tire out my airgroups on Dec 7th.

Hey Mogami thats the first I heard of this. Its something I been asking for all along. IMHO, Its a good thing. BUT does this mean Luskan got those results without the help or surprise rules?

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: Pascal

You can read the Japanese operational orders on the Hyperwar website. See http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/index.html#usn

This is an EXCELLENT site with many, many primary and secondary sources.

Pascal, I cant seem to find anywhere on that site the operational orders for the Malayan campaign in general or a planned torp attack on Singapore Naval Base specifically. Can you direct me to it.

Sorry, it's in the Pearl Harbor Attack section of Ibiblio. Here's the exact URL

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/pt_12/x12-p431.html

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Pascal, like everyone else, I swiped it from someone else [;)]

If you want to contact the author and see where he swiped it from ... jeremy.lee@btinternet.com

The numbers jive quite nicely with all the other sites that happen to have other data on the subject.

Thanks, Frag.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT


Well Nik, I may not be from Missouri but someone is going to have to show me before I change my stuborn ass.

Only two things come from Missouri.....


steers and......

[:'(]

awww......no Turn 1 Mogami-ish master plan of utter destruction, complete with a crack of thunder soundbit?

rats

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

ORIGINAL: Pascal

You can read the Japanese operational orders on the Hyperwar website. See http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/index.html#usn

This is an EXCELLENT site with many, many primary and secondary sources.

Pascal, I cant seem to find anywhere on that site the operational orders for the Malayan campaign in general or a planned torp attack on Singapore Naval Base specifically. Can you direct me to it.

I have another interesting source URL too:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/inte ... onokaw.htm

[Brady]

Dull's, Book; The Imperial Japanese Navy gives a decent acount of the action aganst the Price of Wales and Repulse in Chapter 3.


" The Japanese bases in Indochina were also Kept informed of the Various Courses taken by Force Z. On Dec. 9th observation and atack units were sent out, but they found nothing. During the Night, howeaver, it was concluded that an air atack on force Z, early on the 10th of December, would be posable, and at 0220, five Japanese planes left Camtanh Bay, refeuling at Poulo Condore Island and taking off again at o430. From Saigon a nine plane formation was sent out at 0525 to search a 40 degree arc up to 600 miles. Also from Saigon's airfields, from 0614 to 0730, 34 bombers and 50 torpedo planes took off. When Force Z was sighted at 1120, the location was pased to all units in the air."

So not all the planes were torpedo planes, as I mentioned way back in this thread, the Prince of Whalse was hit:

"Twice aft by 1,100 pound bombs, and was damaged in her starbord quarter by a near miss"

This in of course adation to 7 Torpedo hits.