Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

The "Perfect" System.

Decide what the max rating a pilot can achive in training is. (by aircraft type)
Decide the cost in supply to train the pilot. (by aircraft type)
Decide the amout of time required to train. (by aircraft type)

Then decide when and how often the player can intoduce pilots into training
decide when and how often the player receives his trained pilots.
decide the method for pulling pilots from system early.

Only pilots placed into system can become pilots. (no such thing as untrained. Only pilots removed from training early)

The player would then be free to decide how large the program was and how well his pilots were trained.


Example: Pilots are introduced at first of month.

1 Jan 1942
Japanese player adds 100 IJN pilots to fighter program supply will be deducted every day pilots remain in training. Rating will grow based on amount of time spent. No supply no advancment.

When pilots reach max rating from training they are availabe for assignment. Or player can halt training and assign as they are. This is then the pool and the only pool. Groups can still disband-withdraw like at present (because these are also tactical considerations)

Sounds Great when do we start?

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Care to tell me what thinking has to do with production code?

The code is the code is the code. Thinking does not make it different. Recoding makes it different. If you are going down the recoding path, then we go full circle back to inventing a pilot training system where the player can divert fuel and resources to fund his pilot training and get rid of the pool and country level completely.

One of the problems I have with the current system even including Mogami's work around is it makes no difference if Japan happens to be winning the war, they still get worse pilots year after year.

If I through good playing manage to not strip my pilots, why should I take a hit on EXP? I'm not kicking my pilots out of school early to fill in my losses so I should *not* see a skill drop.

The basic problem is that my way *requires* a fair chunk of code work to be done. That work has to come after everything else is fixed *if* it ever comes. Mogami's "disband w/Reform" to steal pilots option was a pretty simple thing to code and made it in. It doesn't resolve the decreasing pilot skill year after year penalty.

You have defined a box that says what can be done and what can't. You stated "You can't send them to the pool. The pool doesn't really exist. It is a simple number and skill average. By sticking *real* pilots into the pool, the pool now has to be tracked pilots. " You are suggesting that they *have* to track individual pilots in the pool to allow returning pilots to the pool. They don't. The assumption that the system must be rewritten is what makes getting it "fixed" less likely. You want it rewritten, but it is possible that modifying it would take less effort and get us close enough to desired results with less effort on the part of the programmers. That means it is more likely to happen.

Frankly, I like the idea of having all pilots enter the map at 0 experience and allowing them to train to 75 in on the map airgroups. The only thing it requires is more airgroups to use for training and a training rate that approximates the material costs and training time required for a given skill level. In that scenario, the only thing required are changes to the OOB.

[moses]

Question for Mogami--how do you deal with pilot replacement of all the small float plane units that exist on many ships and subs.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, You have as Japan an unlimited number of pilots. Some of them come trained and others you have to train yourselves. You don't have to go fishing for pilots. You have to PLAN and train what you need before you need it.

The problem is the number of airgroups availabe to train them in. In order to build this training system, I have to relegate a squadron to training. The limitations on training should be supply and aircraft availability, not how many airgroups are in the OOB and when they appear.

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: moses

Question for Mogami--how do you deal with pilot replacement of all the small float plane units that exist on many ships and subs.

He probably doesn't. At least until the pool is depleted so they get the worthless ones.

[moses]

This may be dumb but why cant there just be a unit on the map somewhere called A6M2 pilot training faciity. It would work just like a regular air unit except that its only mission is training. You add untrained pilots too it whenever you want and they train. The number of pilots you have training determines the supply usage of the facility. If supply usage is an insufficent constraint other restrictions on the number of traines entering the faclity could be added. When you want replacements to move to your units you pick the pilots and send them off.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

The "Perfect" System.

Decide what the max rating a pilot can achive in training is. (by aircraft type)
Decide the cost in supply to train the pilot. (by aircraft type)
Decide the amout of time required to train. (by aircraft type)

Then decide when and how often the player can intoduce pilots into training
decide when and how often the player receives his trained pilots.
decide the method for pulling pilots from system early.

Only pilots placed into system can become pilots. (no such thing as untrained. Only pilots removed from training early)

The player would then be free to decide how large the program was and how well his pilots were trained.


Example: Pilots are introduced at first of month.

1 Jan 1942
Japanese player adds 100 IJN pilots to fighter program supply will be deducted every day pilots remain in training. Rating will grow based on amount of time spent. No supply no advancment.

When pilots reach max rating from training they are availabe for assignment. Or player can halt training and assign as they are. This is then the pool and the only pool. Groups can still disband-withdraw like at present (because these are also tactical considerations)

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the perfect system simply involves
1) Having more airgroups to train
2) Starting all new pilots start at 0 experience
3) Allowing the pilot training to increase to 75 (Jap '42 and Alllies 44/45 pool skill level)
4) Adjusting the training advancement rate so that pilots achieve the 75 skill level at historically accurate rates of flight hours.
5) Convert current pools into "advanced stage" training groups
6) Have disbanded squadrons come back faster
7) Make it possible to disband a squadron into another squadron of the same upgrade path and put obsolete planes into the pool ( Ex. 9 IJN A5M4 disbanded into A6M2 squadron adds the 9 pilots to the A6M2 squadron and 9 A5M4 to the pool)

If as Japan I can keep the SRA open longer, my reward is more supply, which translates into more, better trained pilots. If I need pilots faster than the system can give me high skill pilots, my pilots decline based upon actions in the game.

[mogami]

Hi, Floatplanes on surface ships all begin full strength. In practice almost the only time I lose a ship based floatplane is when I lose the ship. The groups on the AV and CS and the larger landbased groups I treat like any other group.

there is no way around the simple facts.

There are 100 pilots in the pool at start. There is a demand for over 100 pilots at the start. 10 pilots per month are added to the pool.

You either accept untrained pilots or you live with some of the groups being under strength

You can get a few units to strength (or near to it) by combining groups. When the disbanded group returns it will have untrained pilots in it. What you do with it then is up to you. Train it and then increase the number of your combat groups or just go ahead and use it as it is. I train it and use it to replace my loss from existing groups rather then use untrained pilots.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: Mogami

The "Perfect" System.

Decide what the max rating a pilot can achive in training is. (by aircraft type)
Decide the cost in supply to train the pilot. (by aircraft type)
Decide the amout of time required to train. (by aircraft type)

Then decide when and how often the player can intoduce pilots into training
decide when and how often the player receives his trained pilots.
decide the method for pulling pilots from system early.

Only pilots placed into system can become pilots. (no such thing as untrained. Only pilots removed from training early)

The player would then be free to decide how large the program was and how well his pilots were trained.


Example: Pilots are introduced at first of month.

1 Jan 1942
Japanese player adds 100 IJN pilots to fighter program supply will be deducted every day pilots remain in training. Rating will grow based on amount of time spent. No supply no advancment.

When pilots reach max rating from training they are availabe for assignment. Or player can halt training and assign as they are. This is then the pool and the only pool. Groups can still disband-withdraw like at present (because these are also tactical considerations)

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the perfect system simply involves
1) Having more airgroups to train
2) Starting all new pilots start at 0 experience
3) Allowing the pilot training to increase to 75 (Jap '42 and Alllies 44/45 pool skill level)
4) Adjusting the training advancement rate so that pilots achieve the 75 skill level at historically accurate rates of flight hours.
5) Convert current pools into "advanced stage" training groups
6) Have disbanded squadrons come back faster
7) Make it possible to disband a squadron into another squadron of the same upgrade path and put obsolete planes into the pool ( Ex. 9 IJN A5M4 disbanded into A6M2 squadron adds the 9 pilots to the A6M2 squadron and 9 A5M4 to the pool)

If as Japan I can keep the SRA open longer, my reward is more supply, which translates into more, better trained pilots. If I need pilots faster than the system can give me high skill pilots, my pilots decline based upon actions in the game.

Hi, You just described the present system only there remains in the game those 10 pilots per month. (That you then use for groups like submarines and shipbased float planes)

pilots on map have no training limit because of the date. There are more groups in the inventory then can be used in forward bases. (and a certain number will always be in training whether a player is doing it as part of a system or because combat has rendered them usleless without it. All we are doin here is saying that we are going to do it from the start rather then waiting for the airforce to be nearly destroyed before we enact training. (The Japanese made no real effort to expand the IJN trainng before Midway. The Solomons finished it as an offensive force because there were no ready replacements)

A true system would have fighter training aircraft and bomber training aircraft. However since before any pilot can fly in combat he has to have an aircraft using a system where both pilot and aircraft arrive together produces the same result as sending them from two different pools. So in WITP just train the pilot in the aircaft he will use in combat.

In your game you have every airgroup of every type engaged in front line use and have none to spare?

In this system the player will be out training the historical Japanese.



My current top pilots in kills.

LTJG C. Fujimatsu Exp 87 Kills 5 EI-1 Daitai IJN A6M2
Maj M. Kamas Exp 99 Kills 5 24th Ftr Sentai IJA Ki-27

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Hi, You just described the present system only there remains in the game those 10 pilots per month. (That you then use for groups like submarines and shipbased float planes)

Not quite.
1) The max you can train pilots to is 59. Yet the Allies get them at 75 for free in later years.
2) Pilots don't currently start at 0 experience
3) Disbanded squadrons take 90 days to come back
4) You can't disband an A5M4 into an A6M2 without upgrading it first. I would be using A5M4's to simulate the "type" training aircraft your referenced. Once I upgrade the A5M4, I can't use A5M4's for training anymore.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
In this system the player will be out training the historical Japanese.

1) If I can't do better, then what is the point of having it there at all, so I can only do worse?
2) I shouldn't be able to do markedly better with historical conditions unless the advancement rate or supply requirement of training airgroups is set wrong.

[mogami]

Hi, None of that changes the end result. Don't worry about allied training they are different animals. Disbanded Sqdn take 90 days to refrom. OK so what.? Plan around that. (It means a new class forms 90 days after one "graduates"

The A5M2 will have been converted back into resource points by May 42. Explain to me what the difference is between giving a pilot a A6M2 that he takes with him and giving him one when he gets to a new unit. You still need to have the A6M2 built before he can fly it.

Using A5M you could train a pilot and then upgrade him in the hex with the group he was being sent to and then disband. You'd still need the A6M2.


I'm happy to explain things but I'm getting a bit testy trying to justify everything or explain nitpicks.
The game throughout forces the player to deal with abstractions. The entire concept is one abstraction interacting with other abstractions. We can't try to suddenly introduce concrete concepts into it. At issue is the abstract process that results in trained pilots.
The major issue is some people can't get used to just where they come from.

The historic trained pilots produced by Japan are found in the units as they arrive. There is some debate about what rating they should have (they are based on history not conditions current in game) To supplement this there are pilots placed in pool every month that are not tied to any group or aircraft type. Between these two sources you get the historic Japanese trained pilots.

Now every player wants to produce more then history. That is understandable and in fact almost required if the Japanese player is to do better then his historical counterparts.

The debate/problem has been how to do this. The cost of producing a trained pilot is very high. very time consuming. Japan tried to train as many as she could. (once she needed them) The prewar IJN trained 300 pilots per year. ("but Mogami I only get 120 per year"-no you get 120 above and beyond those that arrive on map in groups per year plus you get as many as you can train your self)

(we are covering no new ground here. Every point was brought up and explained in other threads beginning many months back)

The Japanese disbanded groups. (as a result of those groups being disabled in combat) They then formed new groups when they could later. In the game a disbanded group will return if you want it to. In the end the WITP Japanese player will have on map more groups then the actual Japanese. There is no need to create yet more groups just for training. You already get at least a 6 month head start on history if you bother to take it.
Soon the Allied players will be screaming about the ease and number of pilots the Japanese can produce.

[Wilhammer]

Mogami,

Your 'Pilot Management in WitP' needs it own thread - what a gem it is, kind of hiding in the Production Thread.

Excellent notes - maybe an article for Spooky's site?

I have ctrl c'ed and v'ed 'em for my use - thanks.

[mogami]

I feel like Sisyphus when dealing with this topic.

[Sinjen]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

What about removing the restriction on disbanding pilots into a like unit (ie Rufe to Rufe) If I put my Rufe pilots into an A6M2 unit (same Airplane essentially) that would have the same effect as my request above.

Make Bomber unit capable of disbanding into other Bomber units, Fighter units disbanding into other fighter units, Dive-bombers units...you get the idea, regardless of the model of aircraft. In my opinion a fighter, is a fighter, is a fighter. Where do the planes go? To the pool of course. The disbanded unit does not return

No comment on my Idea for official training squadrons Frag?

I like this idea.

[DrewMatrix]

Where do the planes go? To the pool of course.

Can't I use that to teleport A/C back and forth from Bombay to Canton Island and back?

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Where do the planes go? To the pool of course.

Can't I use that to teleport A/C back and forth from Bombay to Canton Island and back?

That is the way it worked in BTR. Call it gamey, but my idea for upgrades and retrogrades included a delay of 1 day per pilot in the unit before it could considered operational. That same delay could be imposed on the Old aircraft as they make their way to the pool.

You either accept that as one of the many abstracts of the game or push for the delay to simulate the transit of aircraft to the "Depot". At some point though we have to accept the abstract nature of some things in this game.

[mogami]

Hi, When you move supply to a base you are moving replacements for your airgroups and landunits you just don't know it.

In order to replace an item there must be 20k+ supply and as items are replaced (upgraded) their load value in supply points is consumed. So every item in WITP is actually accounted for in what your transports carry. Zapping back to the pool would have to also consume another amount of supply equal to the load value. If there was not enough supply it could not be done. Otherwise except for the coding (which is not up to me) The idea could work.

I mean the abilty to return aircraft to pool rather then transfering them to another unit in the same hex.

Personally I don't like the idea of returning my pilots to the pool and losing their ID. One of my favorite features is the useless but interesting ability to track pilots.

There is no precedence for converting floatplane pilots to Betty Pilots or transport pilots to fighter pilots. The Rufe is a Zero so adding those pilots to a group makes sense except for the fact you would need to do two things at once. Return Rufes to pool and draw Zero (or other Navy fighter) from pool. In normal disband nothing returns to pool so there is no supply cost. In this case there would be the cost for 2 movements.

But my real objection is it is not something that can be done as easy as it sounds. Of any group of pilots send to fighter training many wash outs occur. These wash outs become bomber and transport pilots. Sending them back to fighters would be a fast way to lose both a good transport/bomber pilot and a fighter aircraft.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Changing every Rufe pilot to a Zero pilot would add what? 30 pilots? I have a requirment for Rufe pilots so I would not disband my Rufe groups. A Zero requires an airfield. A Rufe requires a dot, water, and an AV.

I had to go back and reread some of our Posts Mogami to see how we got onto the "Great Rufe Debate". Turns out it was just an example I gave of one of the many Dead-end Aircraft types that condemn MANY experienced aviators to rot in a unit that is typically obselete by the 1st turn.

Babs, Sonia, Mary, Ann, Rufe, Oscar II, Ida! the list goes on and on. I LOVE the fact that these aircraft are in the game. I respect each of them for what they are. I enjoy watching them go out in the beginning of the game and work hard for me. But sooner rather than later their age begins to show, and other Aircraft need good pilots. I am not advocating cross-pollination here for lack of a better term. Recon units disband to recon units. Babs and Myrt and Irving all recon pilots merge. A/C go to the pool. Rufe and Rex and Zero, all fighter pilots merge. Left over planes got to pool.

These Dead-end pilots can be put to good use elsewhere. It was done during the war by both sides. It is done today in our own modern Navy. I see no reason whatsoever to not allow it, UNLESS it just can't be coded.

thoughts?

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, When you move supply to a base you are moving replacements for your airgroups and landunits you just don't know it.

In order to replace an item there must be 20k+ supply and as items are replaced (upgraded) their load value in supply points is consumed. So every item in WITP is actually accounted for in what your transports carry. Zapping back to the pool would have to also consume another amount of supply equal to the load value. If there was not enough supply it could not be done. Otherwise except for the coding (which is not up to me) The idea could work.

I mean the abilty to return aircraft to pool rather then transfering them to another unit in the same hex.

Personally I don't like the idea of returning my pilots to the pool and losing their ID. One of my favorite features is the useless but interesting ability to track pilots.

There is no precedence for converting floatplane pilots to Betty Pilots or transport pilots to fighter pilots. The Rufe is a Zero so adding those pilots to a group makes sense except for the fact you would need to do two things at once. Return Rufes to pool and draw Zero (or other Navy fighter) from pool. In normal disband nothing returns to pool so there is no supply cost. In this case there would be the cost for 2 movements.

But my real objection is it is not something that can be done as easy as it sounds. Of any group of pilots send to fighter training many wash outs occur. These wash outs become bomber and transport pilots. Sending them back to fighters would be a fast way to lose both a good transport/bomber pilot and a fighter aircraft.

Mogami,
I agree with you. We want the same thing in the end I think.

If the supply isn't there or the player doesn't want to expend supply to make the move to the pool the planes sit on the airfield and rot like they did IRL. The Squadron unit screen retains the name with a cool WWII style military stamp across it that Says "Disbanded Permanently" just below the stamp the pilot line says 0 and the A/C line say 3 ready 6 damaged. They remain that way til the player either expends they supply to remove them to the pool or they are destroyed.

I DEFINTIELY don't want to lose pilot ID's, that is one of my favorite features too. If you read some of my previous posts again you'll see repeated attempts at clarifying my position. I don't think Bomber pilots should convert to Fighters. Not that they couldn't IRL, it just isn't necessary in the game. There are enough dead-end aircraft types in this game in each Family of aircraft to feed their own.

Essentially nothing is changing. We just aren't restricted by one model disbanding to like models (Ki-21 to Ki-21). We have the ability to disband a Fighter unit to ANY other Fighter unit(Rufe to Zero...Nate to Oscar). The unit being disbanded send its pilot to the remaining unit and its aircraft are dealt with as explained above (assuming they are NOT like A/C). Simple.

A washout is a washout. A trained aviator is a trained aviator. A fighter pilot is a fighter pilot. A bomber pilot is a bomber pilot, a recon pilot is a recon pilot, a dive bomber pilot is a BLah, blah , blah...Elf shut up!!! [:'(] None of that changes