World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.
Partisan HQ's permanently change control of hexes.... That is another aspect of them I had never thought of.
Is that really the intent of the rule, after all they are still partisans.
If hex control change is real for them, that makes them exteremely powerful units.
Lars
That's my interpretation of them being "like other HQs". It would seem to be major goal to get 2 partisan units, combine them into a HQ and then go tramping around in the enemy's rear areas (sort of like a snail leaving a slime trail behind it).
ORIGINAL: Yohan
I don't think there should be a counter limit on these. It is arbitrary, not like manpower constraints.
Rob
Couple of comments here:
First, Patrice, I was under the impression that the Libyan oil plant (representing oil field development that historically did not, but could have in game terms, taken place there) appeared in the Libyan swamp hex.
Secondly, there are, I imagine, game balance reasons to impose a limit on synthetic oil plants according to the WiF:FE counter mix.
This is an old post I intended to respond to but never did. placing the Italian synthetic oil plant in the coast is important for enabling it to be convoyed by sea. That wouldn't be possible if it were in the inland swamp hex. And the hex number on the counter is very precise as to where it should be placed.
ORIGINAL: lomyrin
Partisan HQ's permanently change control of hexes.... That is another aspect of them I had never thought of.
Is that really the intent of the rule, after all they are still partisans.
If hex control change is real for them, that makes them exteremely powerful units.
Lars
That's my interpretation of them being "like other HQs". It would seem to be major goal to get 2 partisan units, combine them into a HQ and then go tramping around in the enemy's rear areas (sort of like a snail leaving a slime trail behind it).
Steve is correct.
But this does not make these 2 new counters extremely powerful. It makes them dangerous, and is supposed to make the opposing player warry of Partisans.
I say it is not extremely powerful, because it is made at the start of the Part phase, that is youcan't be surprised when it happens, because you have seen PART units gathering suring the previous turn. So it is up to you to counter the threat asap, and to prevent it from wandering.
I've seen it once in our games, and Zoya was too happy to join with the Russian lines and act as a regular HQ for the regular Army. I never saw Tito on the other hand.
They dwindle down to a precious few. By my count I only have a dozen of these suckers left (69 completed).
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[53][Carrier Planes][RAW 56 s. 14.4.1]
This optional rule provides separate carrier air units for each carrier. Instead of building carriers and having implicit air units associated with each carrier, the players build explicit carrier air units separately. This rule can be used with or without the optional rule for pilots. While the introduction of separate carrier air units adds a lot of realism, it also increases the complexity of playing WIF quite a bit too. Carrier air units are treated quite differently from normal air units. Indeed, in some circumstances they can fly missions without becoming passive afterwards and can even fly missions if they have already become passive. This is a major difference from all other air units in the game.
Carrier air units cost 3 build points each (or 1 build point each when using the Pilot optional rule) and take 4 turns to produce. A carrier air unit has the values shown on the counter, not those calculated from the carrier's air class. The carrier’s air class capabilities do not increase over time as in the standard game.
A carrier air unit does not count as a unit for stacking purposes when it is on a carrier. In other cases, it counts as a normal air unit. That a carrier air unit is on a carrier is shown by being positioned directly above the carrier in a stack or in a list. It is also indicated by the status boxes alongside both the carrier air unit and the carrier. The carrier air class determines which carrier air units it can carry. A carrier air unit can fit onto a carrier if the air unit’s class is the same size as, or less than, the carrier’s air class.
Carrier air units have the colored boxes which indicate the air unit’s class. The 7 classes are:
1. Light blue
2. Orange
3. Green
4. Royal blue
5. Red
6. Violet
7. Black
Over time most carrier air units have class upgrades. These are done at the beginning of a year and may occur once, twice, or not at all. The carrier air unit’s initial class is associated with the year the plane enters the force pool. The upgrade classes and the years they become effective are shown with the rest of the information about the unit. When an air unit has a class upgrade, its class drops to a lower number, which means the air unit can fit onto a smaller carrier.
For example, the French add an SBC-4 carrier air unit into the force pool at the start of 1939 and it is a class 3 air unit (green square). Until the start of 1941, the SBC-4 can only fly from a class 3 or bigger carrier (i.e., carriers of class 3 - 7). From the start of 1941, the SBC-4 becomes a class 2 carrier plane (orange square), so it can now fit on a class 2 carrier or bigger (e.g. the Joffre). From the start of 1943 onwards, this carrier air unit can fit on any French carrier (they don't come any smaller than class 1's). The easiest way to remember all this is that small class air units fit on large class carriers.
You can place a reinforcement carrier air unit directly onto a carrier in an eligible port city, assuming the carrier can accommodate the air unit. You may stack up to 2 carrier air units on each carrier, provided that the sum of the size of all carrier air units stacked on a single carrier is no more than that carrier’s air class. For instance, 2 air units of class 2 can fit on a class 4 carrier. Each carrier air unit may conduct missions separately from the other air unit based on the same carrier, and each carrier air unit counts separately against air mission activity limits.
Carrier air units are included in naval air combats in their sea area, without counting against a major power’s air mission activity limit. If they are based on land (instead of on a carrier), then they are treated as if they were a normal fighter or a bomber and even a naval air mission counts as an air mission against the current activity limits.
Carrier air units can never fly a naval air mission from a carrier into another sea area. However, even a passive carrier air unit can take part in a naval air combat in its own sea area, providing it is flying from an undamaged carrier in that sea area. Carrier air units that fly a naval air combat mission do not become passive when they return to base! If it returns from any other mission, it does become passive. Carrier units themselves never become passive because their air units fly missions.
A carrier air unit can fly a mission from a hex just like any other air unit. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flew as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.
You may not use a carrier air unit to start a naval combat. If you use a carrier to start a naval combat, then the carrier and all the air units it carries become passive.
The naval search number for a sea-box is increased by 1 if both of the following conditions are met:
∙ The weather in the sea area is fine, rain or snow, and
∙ The section contains a naval air unit or a carrier air unit belonging to the searching side. The carrier air unit must be on a carrier, and, if playing with the Carrier Search optional rule, subject to the carrier air unit range.
For the purposes of choosing the type of naval combat, a player is only allowed to choose a naval air combat because he has a carrier included, if and only if the carrier is carrying an air unit. The first step in each naval air combat round is to decide which of your fighters and carrier air units will be flying as bombers and which as fighters. These decisions can be changed at the start of the next round. Instead of adding the usual 0.5, carrier air units add one-tenth of their air-to-air strength as back-up fighters.
When being transported by a naval transport, carrier air units count as half of an air unit.
When a carrier air unit that flew from a carrier returns to base, it must return to a carrier it can fit on in the same sea box section it flew from. It can not return to another major power's carrier. If there is no carrier it can return to, it is destroyed, and its pilot is destroyed too. A carrier air unit that aborts from an air-to-air combat returns immediately to a carrier. All carrier air units that flew from a carrier must return to base after all results against naval units are implemented but before aborting naval units return to base.
If a carrier air unit gets shot down, the carrier is not damaged; it merely is carrying one less air unit. If a carrier air unit is on a carrier that aborts, the carrier air unit aborts with it. They both become passive.
If a carrier is damaged, carrier air units can still land on it but can no longer fly from it. When the combat ends, the damaged carrier is placed in the repair pool and its carrier air unit(s) onto the production circle to arrive in the next turn. If you are playing with the optional rule Pilots, a pilot is added to the owning major power’s available pilots total.
A carrier air unit on a carrier which is destroyed, is destroyed too. If you are playing with the optional rule Pilots, and a carrier air unit is on a carrier that is destroyed, the pilot is also lost. If you are playing with the Bottomed Ships optional rule, a carrier air unit on a bottomed carrier is still destroyed, (along with its pilot if the Pilot optional rule is being used).
During the rebase aircraft step of each turn, you can rebase an active carrier air unit up to double its range, from its carrier to a hex or vice versa (including the cost to get into or out of the sea-box section). You can also rebase a carrier air unit from a carrier to another carrier in the same sea-box section or port or from a carrier to the port hex it is in or vice versa. Each of these counts as a rebase for activities limits. Like all other rebases, the carrier air unit remains active.
Carrier air units may only perform normal (i.e., like other air units) rebase missions when not stacked on a carrier.
When a carrier ends its move in port, it becomes passive. However, its carrier air unit(s) only become passive if the carrier started the step at sea and moved into port during the action segment.
When you reorganize a carrier, its carrier air units are reorganized too, at no extra cost in reorganization points. However, if you are playing with the Oil optional rule, each carrier air unit costs 0.5 oil to reorganize.
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[54][Carrier Planes CV Only][RAW 56 s.]
Included as part of Carrier Planes.
Carrier air units cost 3 build points each (or 1 build point each when using the Pilot optional rule) and take 4 turns to produce. A carrier air unit has the values shown on the counter, not those calculated from the carrier's air class. The carrier’s air class capabilities do not increase over time as in the standard game.
CVP units cost 0, 1 or 2 BP if playing without pilots (it is written on the counter).
I don't know if that means that the 0 BP ones cost 2 BP if playing without pilots, and if the 2 BP ones cost 4 BP if playing without pilots (I did not check, and I always play with pilots).
A carrier air unit can fly a mission from a hex just like any other air unit. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flew as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.
(...)
Carrier air units may only perform normal (i.e., like other air units) rebase missions when not stacked on a carrier.
Both sentences contradict each other, so you should remove the first, and only leave the last.
This is a leftover in the rules from the times when Option 56 did not forbid Carrier Planes from flying missions from hexes.
Now they are only allowed to fly missions from CV.
******************************* 14.4.1 Carrier plane units (CVPiF & SiF option 56)
(...) Carrier planes as aircraft
CVPiF option 56: Carrier planes may only ever fly rebase missions when not stacked on a CV.
*******************************
Also, you can add that :
- A TRS transports 2 CVP.
- CVP add one tenth of their Air to Air rating as backup fighters.
ORIGINAL: lomyrin
Partisan HQ's permanently change control of hexes.... That is another aspect of them I had never thought of.
Is that really the intent of the rule, after all they are still partisans.
If hex control change is real for them, that makes them exteremely powerful units.
Lars
That's my interpretation of them being "like other HQs". It would seem to be major goal to get 2 partisan units, combine them into a HQ and then go tramping around in the enemy's rear areas (sort of like a snail leaving a slime trail behind it).
Steve is correct.
But this does not make these 2 new counters extremely powerful. It makes them dangerous, and is supposed to make the opposing player warry of Partisans.
I say it is not extremely powerful, because it is made at the start of the Part phase, that is youcan't be surprised when it happens, because you have seen PART units gathering suring the previous turn. So it is up to you to counter the threat asap, and to prevent it from wandering.
I've seen it once in our games, and Zoya was too happy to join with the Russian lines and act as a regular HQ for the regular Army. I never saw Tito on the other hand.
I will stand by the extermely powerful label for the partisan HQ. Consider a Germany that is deep into Russia with their HQ's at the front far to the east. German units are placed for garrison purposes but they are usually out of supply and cannor fight the partisan HQ. Now the Partisan HQ moves from south to north cutting off rail line after rail line and making a run of hexes German supply cannot cross threatening to put the entire German fighting forces out of supply deep into Russia. Germany must then rail an HQ back from the front to stop this partisan HQ. Just disorganizing it is not good enough since it will reorg at the end of turn. That is power.
Carrier planes range in cost from 0 to 1 to build points each when using pilots. A 0 BP cost plane can also be useful to maintain or increase gearing limits.
Stacking of 2 carrier planes that can fit on 1 carrier is a separate option in WiFFE.
Carrier planes reorganizing costs .1 oil each not .5 oil each.
I will stand by the extermely powerful label for the partisan HQ. Consider a Germany that is deep into Russia with their HQ's at the front far to the east. German units are placed for garrison purposes but they are usually out of supply and cannor fight the partisan HQ. Now the Partisan HQ moves from south to north cutting off rail line after rail line and making a run of hexes German supply cannot cross threatening to put the entire German fighting forces out of supply deep into Russia. Germany must then rail an HQ back from the front to stop this partisan HQ. Just disorganizing it is not good enough since it will reorg at the end of turn. That is power.
Lars
Generaly, the Axis always have at least 1 HQ it can rail move to kill a threatening PART regrouping.
Either this is the HQ that keeps the Kriegsmarine in Supply in France, sometimes it is a reinforcing HQ that makes a stop in his movement east to kill the PART, sometimes it is a minor country HQ as the Rumanian or Yugoslavian, and sometimes it is an Italian one. There are also some supply sources around in Russia such as Moscow, the Baltic States Capitals, and the Ports of the Black Sea.
I agree this is a nuisance, but never could Zoya be able to move south to north cutting railways as you describe if the Axis take the PART problem seriously.
ORIGINAL: lomyrin Carrier planes range in cost from 0 to 1 to build points each when using pilots. A 0 BP cost plane can also be useful to maintain or increase gearing limits.
Stacking of 2 carrier planes that can fit on 1 carrier is a separate option in WiFFE.
Carrier planes reorganizing costs .1 oil each not .5 oil each.
Lars
I agree. Thank you for the correction.
I intend to review all the optional rules as to whether to separate them into pieces or not. But not until I complete this exercise of defining them all clearly. Mainly,I expect the Convoy in Flames optional rule to warrant fragmentation.
A carrier air unit can fly a mission from a hex just like any other air unit. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flew as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.
(...)
Carrier air units may only perform normal (i.e., like other air units) rebase missions when not stacked on a carrier.
Both sentences contradict each other, so you should remove the first, and only leave the last.
This is a leftover in the rules from the times when Option 56 did not forbid Carrier Planes from flying missions from hexes.
Now they are only allowed to fly missions from CV.
******************************* 14.4.1 Carrier plane units (CVPiF & SiF option 56)
(...) Carrier planes as aircraft
CVPiF option 56: Carrier planes may only ever fly rebase missions when not stacked on a CV.
*******************************
Also, you can add that :
- A TRS transports 2 CVP.
- CVP add one tenth of their Air to Air rating as backup fighters.
Your last two points are in the writeup (somewhere).
How about ...
A carrier air unit can fly air missions from a hex just like any other air unit - with the one exception is that it can only fly rebase missions in the manner described earlier. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flies as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.
I will stand by the extermely powerful label for the partisan HQ. Consider a Germany that is deep into Russia with their HQ's at the front far to the east. German units are placed for garrison purposes but they are usually out of supply and cannor fight the partisan HQ. Now the Partisan HQ moves from south to north cutting off rail line after rail line and making a run of hexes German supply cannot cross threatening to put the entire German fighting forces out of supply deep into Russia. Germany must then rail an HQ back from the front to stop this partisan HQ. Just disorganizing it is not good enough since it will reorg at the end of turn. That is power.
Lars
Generaly, the Axis always have at least 1 HQ it can rail move to kill a threatening PART regrouping.
Either this is the HQ that keeps the Kriegsmarine in Supply in France, sometimes it is a reinforcing HQ that makes a stop in his movement east to kill the PART, sometimes it is a minor country HQ as the Rumanian or Yugoslavian, and sometimes it is an Italian one. There are also some supply sources around in Russia such as Moscow, the Baltic States Capitals, and the Ports of the Black Sea.
I agree this is a nuisance, but never could Zoya be able to move south to north cutting railways as you describe if the Axis take the PART problem seriously.
Moscow is not a supply source for Germany until Russia has been conquered.
Yes, an HQ can be railed to deal with the partisan HQ but it will be disorganized and not able to do more than provide supply for perhaps 1 or 2 garrison units. That is not nearly enough to knock out Zoya.
If this is in say 43, you can usually not afford to take an HQ from France to do the job.
I am not disputing the rule but am likely to not use this option after all.
This is an old post I intended to respond to but never did. placing the Italian synthetic oil plant in the coast is important for enabling it to be convoyed by sea. That wouldn't be possible if it were in the inland swamp hex. And the hex number on the counter is very precise as to where it should be placed.
Ah. You are correct (the swamp hex is just nearby, that would explain my confusion). Not that I've ever seen any Italians shell out the 10 bp for the thing. Too many other things to spend the bps on, and not much chance of getting any return on your investment.
Your last two points are in the writeup (somewhere).
How about ...
A carrier air unit can fly air missions from a hex just like any other air unit - with the one exception is that it can only fly rebase missions in the manner described earlier. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flies as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.
Perhaps the following would be better:
"Carrier air units can fly air missions from carriers just like other air units fly missions from hexes, but they can only fly rebase missions from hexes, as described earlier. It is treated [...]."
I might add here that I think you said that land-based fighters add 0.5 factors to an air-to-air combat when they are in backup, but they should add 1 factor. Unless I am out-of-date on land-based fighters fighting a2a in a sea-box:
Instead of adding the usual 0.5, carrier air units add one-tenth of their air-to-air strength as back-up fighters.
here is a fun question about Guards Banner Armies - When exactly do you promote them? Does "after the battle" mean before advancing into a second hex as a result of a Breakthrough result? This makes a difference for possibly overrunning anything in the second hex.
I think that the Battle ends after the advance after combat. Common sense dictate that. How a unit would instantly gain 30% combat points before advancing after combat ?
The Combat and the Advance after combat are all part of the Battle for me.
The rules in 11.16 Land Combat are reasonably clear on this, I think, since "Advance after Combat" is mentioned as part of 11.16.5 Resolving Attacks, which is clearly part of the combat sequence of play. Furthermore, in 22.4.14 Guards Banner Armies, the rules explicitly state "The replacing Guards Banner unit maintains the same facing as the unit it replaces." According to strict sequence of play, modifying the facing of attacking or defending units happens after advancing after combat. When you reference both the combat resolution rules and the Guards Banner rules, I think it's pretty unambiguous.
here is a fun question about Guards Banner Armies - When exactly do you promote them? Does "after the battle" mean before advancing into a second hex as a result of a Breakthrough result? This makes a difference for possibly overrunning anything in the second hex.
I think that the Battle ends after the advance after combat. Common sense dictate that. How a unit would instantly gain 30% combat points before advancing after combat ?
The Combat and the Advance after combat are all part of the Battle for me.
The rules in 11.16 Land Combat are reasonably clear on this, I think, since "Advance after Combat" is mentioned as part of 11.16.5 Resolving Attacks, which is clearly part of the combat sequence of play. Furthermore, in 22.4.14 Guards Banner Armies, the rules explicitly state "The replacing Guards Banner unit maintains the same facing as the unit it replaces." According to strict sequence of play, modifying the facing of attacking or defending units happens after advancing after combat. When you reference both the combat resolution rules and the Guards Banner rules, I think it's pretty unambiguous.
I think facing is used here to indicate face up or face down.
Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln
Moscow is not a supply source for Germany until Russia has been conquered.
Oh, thanks for pointing this out !!! [&o]
I never realized that Major Power Capitals were secondary supply sources when conquered, and Minor Countries Capitals were secondary supply sources when controlled.
I always assumed that they became secondary supply sources when controlled.
I'm happy to know I was wrong, it's another thing we will play right in our next game [:D].
There seems to be a growing concensus that it might be a bit powerful. I guess I can always not play with the rule.
My feeling is that partisans should be a problem for the Axis if they neglect garrison forces but not something that requires moving HQs (which represent a massive amount of manpower and materiel) around Europe to chase down. Partisans were really only able to operate with any freedom in rugged/wooded terrain and when given significant assistance from some outside source. This doesn't really gel with an HQ rampaging around in any hex it likes behind enemy lines and getting reorganized every turn, no matter where it is (unless I've misunderstood something).
Cheers, Neilster
Edited to add "able" in "only able to operate". An error of omission.
There seems to be a growing concensus that it might be a bit powerful. I guess I can always not play with the rule.
My feeling is that partisans should be a problem for the Axis if they neglect garrison forces but not something that requires moving HQs (which represent a massive amount of manpower and materiel) around Europe to chase down. Partisans were really only to operate with any freedom in rugged/wooded terrain and when given significant assistance from some outside source. This doesn't really gel with an HQ rampaging around in any hex it likes behind enemy lines and getting reorganized every turn, no matter where it is (unless I've misunderstood something).
Cheers, Neilster
Well, anyway you're obliged if you want to fight the partisans threat efficiently to now & then rail move a HQ from somewhere, this PART HQ rules does not add that, Partisans already have that side effect. This is easy to counter, as any other partisans are easy to counter, nothing more.
As I said previously, you see Zoya coming from the turn before, so there's plenty of time to muster the supply if needed (it is not always needed, lomyrin argument was in the frame of a German deep in Russia with German HQ too far from the rear areas which IS NOT the common case neither) and to muster at least 2 garrisoning troops to at least ZoC it and to prevent it from moving.
I'm worried that lomyrin's remark has growed this feeling as this is a false feeling.
