Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) GHC Victory

[KWG]

Rain will be a blessing this week as it times perfect for a RR for Pilots in England.


Excitement at US airbases in England as rocket firing P47s arrive.

Rockets and bombs P47s will create a ALUMINUM OVERCAST for France, with guaranteed THUNDER and LIGHTNING.

P51s are being rockets tested.


Aircraft numbers look good, pilot experience climbing!
So many aircraft being produced in US, women are trained to shuttle aircraft to England. B17s arrive in flocks.

RAF Bomber Command flies through Normandy missions in good form.


The past few weeks have been hell for Allied pilots. Rest and Recreation and a FINE TUNING of future operations will be the focus of this week.

[KWG]

Week 52 June 24, 1944

Air Phase

The first question of the Air Phase asked should be what will be my actions and goals of the Ground Phase? That will give the best direction of your Air Phase.

It must be remembered that Iam at a disadvantage in my Air Operations due to the interdiction bug, so I could be doing better than I have been.

The rain is a blessing, in a way as it allows me to RandR and bring in new Air Frames during a already weather disadvantaged week.
Plus I have some reserves, Just in case I did not get a timely rain week.

After checking ALL my ground forces and making sure no one is at the front walking around with a half full canteen. Better be Full or Empty.

Its determined that:

I have 3 possible attacks, outlined in blue. That will bring and led to the best results.

My ranking of which attack should get the resources, leaving the others to maybe get cancelled are:
3-29 Forces
4-21 Forces
27-x Forces

Its still in hot discussion and at the meeting things got out of hand and I ended up sending Patton to find a broom and Churchill to find a dustpan.

A attack on 4=21 forces has been ruled out. Even a attack that was total successful would weaken our forces too much in the hex.

It looks like the Germans are building up for a attack on our lead elements.
Resources will be allocated for that area just not for an attack.


The attack on 27=x has been ruled out.


3-29 Forces gets green light.
It looks like the Germans weakened, from last week, the one hex that would do us the most good. By taking the 3=29 hex we get some important rail and expand the beachhead allowing room for reserves.
Now we just have to take it.

We will also be assaulting Cherbourg.


Several thousand aircraft still on station. A more defensive than offensive role for Allied Air Forces this week.


If the Germans attack our lead elements it will be a close fight. That even if the Germans win it will be pyrrhic victory.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

Week 52 June 24, 1944

Air Phase

The first question of the Air Phase asked should be what will be my actions and goals of the Ground Phase? That will give the best direction of your Air Phase.

It must be remembered that Iam at a disadvantage in my Air Operations due to the interdiction bug, so I could be doing better than I have been.

The rain is a blessing, in a way as it allows me to RandR and bring in new Air Frames during a already weather disadvantaged week.
Plus I have some reserves, Just in case I did not get a timely rain week.

After checking ALL my ground forces and making sure no one is at the front walking around with a half full canteen. Better be Full or Empty.

Its determined that:

I have 3 possible attacks, outlined in blue. That will bring and led to the best results.

My ranking of which attack should get the resources, leaving the others to maybe get cancelled are:
3-29 Forces
4-21 Forces
27-x Forces

Its still in hot discussion and at the meeting things got out of hand and I ended up sending Patton to find a broom and Churchill to find a dustpan.

A attack on 4=21 forces has been ruled out. Even a attack that was total successful would weaken our forces too much in the hex.

It looks like the Germans are building up for a attack on our lead elements.
Resources will be allocated for that area just not for an attack.


The attack on 27=x has been ruled out.


3-29 Forces gets green light.
It looks like the Germans weakened, from last week, the one hex that would do us the most good.

and falls into my tragedy ( yup that's what I call it) hexes to Berlin and now hexes to VP centers.


By taking the 3=29 hex we get some important rail and expand the beachhead allowing room for reserves.
Now we just have to take it.

We will also be assaulting Cherbourg.


Several thousand aircraft still on station. A more defensive than offensive role for Allied Air Forces this week.


If the Germans attack our lead elements it will be a close fight.

That even if the Germans win it will be pyrrhic victory.

This also is a solid point I have been making for yrs. Attacking as Germany 43+ only helps The Allies be they Russia or WA's.
As Germany even when you win your losing as it weakens your front line troops.

I will attack when I can destroy trucks (WitE) or rout/surrender (WitW).

I know its boring and some think its gamey, but I do not make the rules or have control over the combat engine.

I don't see the point of attacking unless if I win I gain something, the current ruleset punishes Germany for attacking in "most"
cases after 43. Helping the allies by attacking to weaken yourself is pointless.

If you have data that can refute that post it, I posted yrs of in game data supporting my side.

What I am waiting for is you to screw up so I can attack and win just below the head(= rout a stack) then rout the head = 3 more units routed.

I done this before.

I can only make you grind as Germany and counter attack when your really stupid or during bad weather when your over confident.

Grind on.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

As history shows operation Cobra over a week, 25–31 July 1944.

"As I stated I am talking loses during the campaign - I am not cherry picking one operation.

As I stated most loses during the Normandy operation (3 months) were from ground combat and the loss ratio was

http://www.britannica.com/event/Normand ... n-of/40555

You need to find data that supports your agreement and does not support my in game and historical data, but thanks you for helping.

Historically speaking Cobra lasted a week and not 4 weeks and counting or 3 months "




Historically speaking Cobra lasted less than a day








So I can only do tactics that will give a historical average over the same time?


I could do very bad attacks, attacking one division at a time massively and suffer the reverse of the ratio? Would that be ahistorical? Therefore not allowed?


Historically most German losses came from vain attacks against Allied Forces, not German Forces sitting in trenches taking low losses, racking up points while running down the clock, plain an simple, it does not match up to what happened historically.

6 days from what I have read.

[KWG]

This also is a solid point I have been making for yrs. Attacking as Germany 43+ only helps The Allies be they Russia or WA's.
As Germany even when you win your losing as it weakens your front line troops.

I will attack when I can destroy trucks (WitE) or rout/surrender (WitW).

I know its boring and some think its gamey, but I do not make the rules or have control over the combat engine.

I don't see the point of attacking unless if I win I gain something, the current ruleset punishes Germany for attacking in "most"
cases after 43. Helping the allies by attacking to weaken yourself is pointless.

If you have data that can refute that post it, I posted yrs of in game data supporting my side.

NOW! NOW! NOW!

I have only brought up your ahistorical action in DEFENCE of you accusing me.

YOU ARE CORRECT IN DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING. THAT IS WHAT THE GERMANS SHOULD HAVE DONE.
regardless of game VPs


Iam doing what I think the Allies should have done.

We are both acting within the physical limits of the modeled real world.

Ahistorical does not mean its wrong which has been my point when my actions are accused of "being ahistorical therefore wrong" context.

To land anywhere but Normandy is ahistorical but not wrong.
To do a major German offense every week or none at all is ahistorical, but not wrong

"I know its boring and some think its gamey, but I do not make the rules or have control over the combat engine."

NO not boring to me, it's very exciting!!! , as Allies Iam forcing my way thru bear traps that could go off at anytime. Thats why it takes time for me to do a turn now, Iam doing what staffs of 1000s did. This very exciting and it' a different world compared to the AI.
A human can do CRAZY, ILLOGICAL stuff that will have BRILLANT results.

Gamey? During the Russian offense of DEC.'41, the Russians dropped troops, without parachutes, out of planes into snow drifts, how Gamey is that? The Germans should have cried foul and had the war stopped right then.

For the germans to get rid of bombers and put all pilots into fighters, is a legit thing that could have been done.

NOW....If you ask me to start taking German refugees , that look like SS troops I will SCREAM

[KWG]

"3-29 Forces gets green light.
It looks like the Germans weakened, from last week, the one hex that would do us the most good.

and falls into my tragedy ( yup that's what I call it) hexes to Berlin and now hexes to VP centers. "

All I can do is grind, and please stay close to me, because when/if it breaks ......


Iam not playing for VPs, Iam playing to destroy the German fighting forces in the field.


When its good weather again.

[KWG]

Historically speaking Cobra lasted less than a day


6 days from what I have read.

There has been a lot of lose and out of context talk on this subject.

Cobra/Goodwood were both ground operations that began with a 1 mission/>1000 planes raid.
So to say Cobra lasted a week is true when talking about the ground part.
When people say Goodwood or Cobra bombing wise its the big air raid they refer to.

HOWEVER:
There were many other small tactical bombings being done by the 8th, outside of the 2 cobra/Goodwood missions, 4 months.

"The analysts point out that in June, July, August and September the 8th Air Force did a lot of tactical bombing, whereas in October the 8th Air Force engaged exclusively on strategic targets"
(Operations Analysis in the U.S. Army Eight Air Force in World War II)

As my post about the command structure and Doolittle's inventiveness, the Majority Tactical Doctrine fell apart, due to the people in command. Combat Ratios Thread.

As much as the bombers the ground commanders wanted the over a 1000 escort aircraft of the Mighty 8th.

[KWG]

Week 52 June 24, 1944

Russia informs the world of Operation Bagration.
Since the East Front box is off, Intel checks on how this will affect the Germans in the west.


Italy

Air forces undergoing massive changes. Several attacks planned that can provided big gains.

Prepped Mission waiting for the GO signal.

[KWG]

Week 52 June 24, 1944


Air Phase Finished.


Got a good sign yesterday for my Air Forces. While on the tractor I had a Bald Eagle 'fly by' at about 20 feet off the ground.
I did not see a weasel on its back.[;)] (a reference to the pic from Britain of the woodpecker with a weasel on its back)


//////Normandy

RAF Bomber Command is the BEST when it comes to experience. Some of the them get the week off, others carryout daylight attacks on verified German positions, suspected HQ/supply areas, crossroads, patches of woods where enemy forces could be , suspect movement paths, clusters of buildings and ANY other place where Germans could be hiding within a 10 mile radius.

Some of the Squadrons given leave. Large number of aircraft put on Ground Support standby.
Recon squadrons given a good inspection.
New air frames are put on line.

/////////Italy

Some squadrons given leave others conduct Low intensity missions.
Ground situation for Germans looks like it may be nearing the breaking point. Several transfers of squadrons to England, arriving with miles still ready to go on missions.

Decisions were made on some of the ground units sitting as reserves in North Africa.

Gave a good going over of all Allied supply depots. Allied player has to really watch and make sure depots are not OVERSUPPLIED in areas that already have supplies enough for months or even over a year, at their present consumption rate and still getting more.

[KWG]

Week 52 June 24, 1944

Cherbourg is captured by the Allies. Captured Germans marched through the city. French women give thank you flowers to an American officer.

[KWG]

Week 52 June 24, 1944

Italy... Monty's Legions....

XIII Corps rolls on.


6th Armored Division a Mailed Fist INDEED.

Germans in the open without trenches are easy prey for swarms of Engineers backed by armor.

[Peltonx]

You remind me allot of Sapper, with the snake tactics just on a very small scale.

[KWG]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

You remind me allot of Sapper, with the snake tactics just on a very small scale.

Snake or a Horn?

I thought I was doing Blitzkrieg and instead of many "horns- schwerpunkts", or two, Iam using just one. Plus in Italy Iam advancing along a valley.


The Germans became too predictable at it. Zhukov knew it would be two horns advancing on Moscow in '41. And then there was Kursk.




The total focus of my military might to combat units on the battlefield instead of German production and manpower is called Vernichtungsgedanke "concept of annihilation"


Battle of the Appian Way


Now the other Schwerpunkt moves and it takes the mountainous region north of Cisterna di Latina.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

ORIGINAL: Pelton

You remind me allot of Sapper, with the snake tactics just on a very small scale.

Snake or a Horn?

I thought I was doing Blitzkrieg and instead of many "horns- schwerpunkts", or two, Iam using just one. Plus in Italy Iam advancing along a valley.


The Germans became too predictable at it. Zhukov knew it would be two horns advancing on Moscow in '41. And then there was Kursk.




The total focus of my military might to combat units on the battlefield instead of German production and manpower is called Vernichtungsgedanke "concept of annihilation"





Now the other Schwerpunkt moves and it takes the mountainous region north of Cisterna di Latina.

Blitzkrieg?

Snakekrieg more like it, 10-20 miles a week is Snakekrieg not Blitzkrieg.

[KWG]

Blitzkrieg?

Snakekrieg more like it, 10-20 miles a week is Snakekrieg not Blitzkrieg.

LOL I move 10-20 miles very fast.

If you would scoot over some I could do some distance.[;)]

Snakes are lightning fast, they move slow for a reason.

For 1944, not bad... at least compared to Kursk.


Iam not a expert at this, just bumping along the best I can.

[KWG]

Italy... Battles wage south of Rome

British 8th Army and US 5th Army locked in battle with German forces along the coasts, in the valleys and on the mountains.


British, American and South African soldiers hold up a Nazi trophy flag while combat engineers on bulldozers clear a path through the debris.


German 275th Infantry Division takes 4-1 losses and routes.

[Peltonx]

Be interesting to see what unhistorical combat ratio is spit out by the combat engine this turn from your 5 week long Cobra offensive.

and as we can see Red it has zero effect on the VP's, so what is the down side?

This is why we call it an exploit.

Nothing wrong here people move along [:-] everything is WAD.

Historical ratio 1.5 yo 1

WitW engine ratio 5 to 1 at least.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: KWG

Yes it is and it's silly to think that a airplane could destroy a battleship.

But its historical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

1 plane

1 bomb

1 ship

SUNK.

Stukas the first smart bombs.

His book is a great read.

Also interesting that Russia has same # of combat planes as US so more then US in Europe.

Wiki Far more TAC planes.

So we can expect the same exploit with WitE 2.0

Operation Cobra from 1941 to 45

[carlkay58]

Yes the Soviets will have a large air force. It does not mean they will be able to do much with it except get shot down a lot. Their pilots will be worse than the Allied pilots and their planes will not be as good.

I still don't see where you think the Allies can project the air power that they can in Normandy throughout the rest of the war. Believe me, I have tried really hard to do so, but it just does not work. Yes the Allies can project a lot of air power for a turn or two, but after that they have to rest those air forces for a few turns before they can hope to have the same effect again. Even with the 8th USAAF helping the ground game, it just can't happen. Maybe in a small portion of the front by rotating the RAF Fighter Command, RAF 2nd Tactical AF, the 9th USAAF, and the 8th USAAF they will be able to maintain the pressure, but it will cost them air support over the rest of the front. Ground attacks rip up the Allied air really bad. High flak losses eliminate a lot of the Allied FBs and pilots. You just can't keep it going once the front widens. Of course, if you keep the front small by bottling up the Allied invasion(s) then the Allies will be able to continue to pound your units for a longer period of time. But it won't be for long before the air groups just don't have the effects due to high fatigue and low experience and morale.

[LiquidSky]

The allied experience stays high....they are, after all...flying a lot. It's the morale that goes up and down like a yo-yo.

The biggest contributer to bad morale for the allies is FlaK. If you hit areas with low flak, you can sustain an air offensive. If you hit areas with high flak, you can only hit them once every three or four turns.

You can also mitigate it somewhat by flying high. Usually about 1/3rd of my allied airforce remains grounded turn to turn because of bad morale.