PzB vs Wobbly - Clash of Steel

[RAM]

Hi there, PzB

Many of your answers make sense, however I see some points worth a thought

I'm not unaware of the dangers of letting Wobbly get a foothold in the South Pacific, but there are several reasons for not
moving the KB back (as this would be the only way I could counterattack)

of course I'm not telling you to get the KB out from the current zone -you need it for Hangover-, just to keep an eye on the Solomons. The americans have two crack marine divisions available in early-to-mid-42, making an early assault on Munda and/or Shortlands feasible. If they put a foothold there and develop the bases up to level four, say bye bye to Rabaul as a viable base...something which has serious consecuences, as I see it.

Only by defeating the American Navy in the Southern Pacific can I successfully win the war. How many cv/cvl/cve did they produce during the war?...think it was 90! -> Mission Impossible! I don't really believe in this, especially not as I've already lost 2 fleet carriers.

I think that's the key here. You'll miss Hiryu and Soryu a lot...those two carriers with Junyo and Hiyo would be enough to keep the americans away from any offensive operations in the waters near Rabaul for a loooong time...and with the rest of KB you'd have enough to achieve the force projection you need in India...

But such is life

These are my reasons for seeking a decisive engagement in India in 1942-1943.
If Hangover succeeds, I will re-deploy as soon as possible and try to regain lost ground and defeat the Imperialist Coalation.

however if australian troops are redeployed into India Hangover will probably stall...with the KB heavily committed in the Bay of Bengal they might slip past your attention and then you'd have some nasty surprises awaiting for you...not good .

If it fails, I will still withdraw the bulk of my forces as soon as possible and try to counterattack before the enemy gains too much of a quantitative and qualitative superiority. I don't really have to fight a decisive battle around Rabaul! I'll withdraw to the Marianas and poor Al if he attacks too early!

I see a potentially fatal breach here. Wobbly doesn't need the Marianas. Until 1944 and masses of B29s, they are mostly worthless. Historically the Marianas were a vital key because they were into Superfortress range to Japan. In 1943 they can be skipped by. If you lose Rabaul as a viable defensive base you're giving up most of New Guinea. A concerted trhust to reconquer all the island puts Philliphines into range of allied bombers. The assault to Phillipines may perfectly come from the south, not the east, and New Guinea is a magnific springboard for it...
the sequence goes more or less like:

-you lose Rabaul as a viable base too soon, you lose all Eastern New Guinea too soon.

-You lose Eastern NG, you are vulnerable in Western Guinea

-Wobbly gets a good base in NG to put heavies on, and you get Phillipines worked upside down.

-Wobbly gets a good base in NG to put Mids on, and you get the southern Phillipine islands bombed until only rubble's left

-Wobbly uses NG as springboard and Voila!...Leyte Gulf happens in early 1944. You will have to commit all your defenses here or you're toast, and by this time the correlation of forces is heavily biased against you. The operation can be costly for Wobbly but he can get the losses. You can't...and you WILL stand heavier losses against Hellcats, Helldivers and Avengers.

-Wobbly gets a couple of big bases in Philliphines and you very well can start praying about your convoys to Japan.

-Japan starves without resources

-War is over .


See what I try to say?

Believe me, I'm not over confident - but I'm very determined. I think that only by committing 110% to Hangiver will it be possible to win a decisive victory. I'm not going to divide my forces and squander this opportunity - as it's the only one I'm going to get in this game.

not calling for you dividing your forces...just trying to warn you -don't let the americans deny you the use of Rabaul. If Rabaul is gone, you're in deep trouble. Maybe even if Hangover succeeds .

I very much prefer to make the enemy react to my initiatives than vice versa!

which is the key for victories, but remember...you keep the initiative on ONE theater at a time...where the KB is. Elsewhere, he's got the initiative -and you must react.

So better try and anticipate to his moves .

[Scharnhorst]

Not to much details, my english is to bad.
But:
If you begin such a massive offensive, you have to fight it to the (lucky/bitter) end.
If you do not: Look at battle of Kursk July 1943. On the peak of the battle the germans took there best forces out of the front to send them to italy agaist the landing allied forces and the war was lost.
Or: "If you defend everthing, you defend nothing".
I think you have to fight hangover to the end and destroy the enemy forces !!(not cities or industrie). Than you can leave india alone for the rest of the war.
To fight on 2 fronts doesn´t work.

Scharnhorst

[pauk]

The force will be with you!

The situation looking really good for Japan right now. How many troops evil Wobbly have in Burma (east from Chandpur?). Are you planing (after sucessful invasion of coure) strike with your invasion troops to the burma or you will use them for further advance in india (west)?

Although the WiTP community just start their campaigns, i'm pretty sure that your invasion will be studied for many generations of players as a masterpiece (of course, if you achive sucess [;)]).

There is only one bigger mistake than insisting on your plan - changing your plan (oh, maybe i will also be cited in WiTP academy[:D]). India certantly worth a lot of points (for destroying enemy troops, liberated cities), so keep the good work.

one more question - do you invest in rd? How many rd points you have for Oscars or other researched ac?

[denisonh]

If this thread does make an Allied player paranoid about losing India, nothing will.....[:D]

[Raverdave]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

If this thread does make an Allied player paranoid about losing India, nothing will.....[:D]

You got that right ! I need a way to block this AAR thread from my opponents.[;)]

[PzB74]

Sorry for putting out such heretic ideas, they're completely insane and doesn't stand a chance of succeeding! [;)]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

ORIGINAL: denisonh

If this thread does make an Allied player paranoid about losing India, nothing will.....[:D]

You got that right ! I need a way to block this AAR thread from my opponents.[;)]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/13/42

Surface Combat

Invasions

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 9
TF 9 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

138 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Matsukaze
AP Nagano Maru, Shell hits 1
DD Harukaze
AP Kenzan Maru, Shell hits 4, on fire
CA Nachi

Japanese ground losses:
1490 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 24
TF 24 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

19 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Hayashio, Shell hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
111 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 9
TF 9 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

181 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
AP Kyokusei Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Harukaze
DD Asakaze
AP Huso Maru, Shell hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
DD Matsukaze

Japanese ground losses:
1496 casualties reported
Guns lost 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 24
TF 24 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese ground losses:
84 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 1007 encounters mine field at Colombo (14,24)

Allied Ships
DD Fortune
DD Bulmer
DD Nestor, Mine hits 1, on fire - my sub laid mines claims another victim!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub/ASW Attacks

ASW attack at 13,23

Japanese Ships
SS RO-64, hits 3 - oncredible enough damage is light, only 24 sys and light flooding. Heading home

Allied Ships
DD Nestor
DD Isis
DD Fortune
DD Bulmer
DD Barker
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Day Air attack on Dimapur , at 33,23

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 20

No Allied losses

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
All Blenheim IV bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Lae , at 54,87

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 22
B-17E Fortress x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 5 damaged

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 42nd Chinese Corps, at 46,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 11
Ki-48 Lily x 21

Allied aircraft
I-153c x 12
I-16c x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
Ki-48 Lily: 5 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
I-153c: 20 destroyed, 1 damaged - Goodbye Chink AF! [8D]
I-16c: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Dacca , at 31,24 - trying to find the B17's...

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
D3A Val x 79

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 7 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 10 destroyed, 3 damaged
Swordfish: 4 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied ground losses:
91 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 27

Aircraft Attacking:
All D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at Chandpur

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 146034 troops, 1537 guns, 657 vehicles

Defending force 23014 troops, 208 guns, 506 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 6

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 6)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 6

Japanese ground losses:
624 casualties reported
Guns lost 25
Vehicles lost 2

Allied ground losses:
2138 casualties reported - a few more days, and we'll have a beachead in India!
Guns lost 55
Vehicles lost 40
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 70085 troops, 812 guns, 34 vehicles

Defending force 42200 troops, 359 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
60 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 39580 troops, 359 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 85619 troops, 844 guns, 130 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 5152 troops, 55 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1804 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 - not getting anywhere! Hopefully I can stall the Allies for a while.

Japanese ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
42 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Imphal

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1842 troops, 19 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1114 troops, 5 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 2)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0 - good, perhaps the base will fall tomorrow! More paras will be landed.

Japanese ground losses:
35 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
45 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation Report

Several of my invasions convoys are now heading south and back to Singapore. There they will prepare for the next phase of Hangover! The invasions of Karachi and Bombay! [&o]

Losses in shipping have been slight, only a handful support and transport ships have been sunk or damaged.
In a few days all remaining ships will be unloaded and Chandpur will become a Japanese stronghold.
The KB will then move south to support the invasion of Ceylon.

I'm ordering reinforcements to Dimapur and Imphal: Base force and another SNLF para unit will be dropped.

In the South Pacific I'm ordering a reinforcement of Shortland. A fast transport group is moving a big SNLF unit in while several minelayers will mine Lunga and surrounding bases. A surface group made up of 2 cl's and 6 dd's are moving another SNLF unit from Kendari to Rabaul.

My adversary from the other side of the World says that the idea to invade Lunga was based on the KB's presence in the Indian Ocean. Accordingly, not well supported...hm, we'll see about that. Also, an operation Rapier is mentioned and this is supposedly more promising. I will not divert forces to the South Pacific from Hangover, but tomorrow I receive substantial air reinforcements. A much stronger Zero/Betty force will be established at Rabaul and Kwajalein.

Al has allowed me to read my AAR page to, and vice versa. I've not had time for this yet as I've been rather busy drinking my way into my 4th decade this weekend, still not recovered. Watching the River Kwai on the telly while typing this report with one finger...nothing else is yet operational! [8|]

[PzB74]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/14/42

Surface Combat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat at 29,27

Japanese Ships
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 1
DD Chidori
DD Manazuru
DD Hatsukari
DD Tomozuru
MSW Banshu Maru #18
MSW Banshu Maru #52
MSW Choun Maru #18
PG Akitsu Maru
PG Aso Maru
PG Busho Maru
PG Chitose Maru
PC Ch 14
PC Ch 16
PC Ch 17
PC Ch 32
AP Kyosei Maru
AP Kyuma Maru
AP Meisho Maru
AP Mikage Maru #2
AP Minowa Maru
AP Minryo Maru
AP Mitsu Maru #3
AP Neikai Maru
AP Nichiryu Maru
AP Nihonkai Maru
AP Nissen Maru #3
AP Nojima Maru
AP Otori Maru
AP Shikano Maru
AP Shinkoku Maru
AP Shinwa Maru
AP Shirogane Maru
AP Shoho Maru
AP Sumanoura Maru
AP Sumiyoshi Maru
AP Taganoura Maru
AP Tainichi Maru
AP Takuei Maru
AP Takunan Maru
AP Taian Maru
AP Tama Maru #2
AP Tarushima Maru
AP Tateyama Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Tenran Maru
AP Tenryu Maru
AP Tenzan Maru
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Tsuiba Maru

Allied Ships
DD Parrott, Shell hits 13, and is sunk - how did this poor thing end up in the middle of a huge convoy returning to Singapore?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub/ASW Attacks

Sub attack at 15,23

Japanese Ships
SS RO-63

Allied Ships
MSW Ipswitch, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage (sinks)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Invasions

Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 9
TF 9 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

342 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese Ships
DD Asakaze
DD Matsukaze
CA Nachi, Shell hits 4
AP Kiyozumi Maru, Shell hits 4, on fire
AP Kansan Maru
DD Harukaze, Shell hits 2
AP Igasa Maru

Japanese ground losses:
730 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 24
TF 24 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese ground losses:
91 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 9
TF 9 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

4 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese ground losses:
78 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Chandpur, 30,25, firing at TF 24
TF 24 troops unloading over beach at Chandpur, 30,25

Japanese ground losses:
13 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Day Air attack on Imphal , at 33,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 6
P-40E Warhawk x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 4 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 14 destroyed, 1 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kungchang , at 46,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 22 - The Hurries are back! Good thing my Lilys decided to stay home.

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 9 destroyed, 2 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 28,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 54
D3A Val x 14
B5N Kate x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Illinoian, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage (sinks)

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
8 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
6 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,25

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 1
D3A Val x 13
B5N Kate x 14

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Indianan, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage (sinks)

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
9 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat
Ground combat at Chandpur

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 153909 troops, 1510 guns, 718 vehicles

Defending force 13170 troops, 40 guns, 412 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese assault odds: 27 to 1 (fort level 5)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Chandpur base !!!¨[8D]


Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 18 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
142 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Allied ground losses:
1341 casualties reported
Guns lost 21
Vehicles lost 27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 70094 troops, 811 guns, 34 vehicles

Defending force 42211 troops, 360 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied ground losses:
78 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Kungchang

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 65756 troops, 527 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 7372 troops, 84 guns, 0 vehicles - the remainding units just stopped advancing :p

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 - amateurs!

Japanese ground losses:
161 casualties reported
Guns lost 9

Allied ground losses:
109 casualties reported
Guns lost 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 29,33

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 39638 troops, 357 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 85608 troops, 843 guns, 130 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
41 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 5072 troops, 51 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1901 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
169 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Imphal

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 2416 troops, 19 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1236 troops, 8 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Imphal base !!! [8D]

Japanese ground losses:
86 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
50 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation Report

A most excellent day for the Empire today!! The Imperialists were dealt several tough blows [:D]
The fall of Chandpur has released the KB from its current duties, and after replenishing it is now sailing WSW to support the
invasion of Trincomalee. The battle fleets are also heading this way together with the MSW and a DD group.

It seemed like Wobbly had retreated some units out of Chandour and back into Dacca. I've ordered the army to march north immediately. I got 2 divisions and a lot of supporting units that have been preparing to invade this base for quite some time.

2 Zero and one Betty Daitai have been moved in, and should be able to provide complete air supremacy in the area.
Supplies are still being unloaded, and a reinforcement convoy with partial and reserve units are being loaded.

The fall of Imphal was also satisfactory, supplies will be flown in - then a base force and some fighters.
In Dimapur I've moved a partial base force in, but an enemy unit appeared today. A naval garrison unit will be airlifted in
tonight - I hope I can hold. Need a few days to secure my new bases - but at least I'm forcing Al to disperse his units.

A deliberate attack has also been ordered north of Rangoon, and the 14th Army is preparing. I'm not sure how effective malaria, bombardments and air strikes have been at reducing the enemy - but I'm afraid I'll be rebuffed. Can't understand how the enemy can remain in this position much longer though. I'm really eager to open up a supply line directly into Chandpur.

Two transports, one destroyer and 1 enemy msw were also sunk today without losses to the IJN.
Subs are now moving west from the area around Chandpur.

In China a partial division advanced alone into Kungching - got attacked by 70k Chinese troops and repelled them [;)]
I'm having problems getting troops to follow eachother. Got a bad tendency of halting, and I've had to march the last 60miles twice *grr*. The Hurricanes were also back, but my ordered Lily attacks was never launched. A Zero sweep did reduce their numbers again though. I've also managed to surround a chinese unit in the middle of my armies. Will try to eliminate it asap.

In the South Pacific everything is quiet...a little too quiet. No signs of enemy ships and Wobbly is talking about yet another operation!? I received 4 new Zero Daitais today together with Sallys. In 3 days I'll be getting my first Zero A6M3 Daitai as well. Most of these units and some torpedo bombers will move south when the weather lifts. Not sure were I'll deploy them, perhaps they can be used as a tactical reserve. Really have no idea whether the eager Kiwi is bluffing or is really planning to invade another base. If he is - Tarawa and Shortland seems the most obvious choices. Don't think he'll take on any of my bigger bases. Rabaul, Truk and Kwajalein got almost 100000 troops between them as well as heavy fortifications. The regiment that invaded Lunga didn't exactly seem very proficient either...

A bold move against Saipan and the Marianas would be scary, but that would also be suicidal that far from Allied bases - and Al doesn't need these bases until 1944 when the B29's arrive of the production line. Will move base forces and garrison units to reinforce the islands nevertheless.

Also moving reinforcements to Chandpur and Truk from Kendari. Mostly SNLF, garrison, construction and base units.
Tomorrow a sizeable garrison unit will be unloaded at Shortland.

Situation Map: Chanpdur & Imphal falls

[Terminus Est]

Like we say in french: "Je suis pendu à tes lèvres!" (literally I'm hanging by your lips, meaning I'm fascinated by your story). [8D]

I wish you both could play 10 turns a day, so I'd know what will happen in the next month or two [;)] ... keep up the good work!

[SteveV]

What are the garrison requirements the computer is imposing for the Japs to keep Chandpur? It should be enormous to say the least.

This is probably a good object lesson on how ahistorical play can break the simulation. The idea that the Japanese could have succesfully transported, invaded and occupied any significant territory in the Indian sub-continent, much less simultaneously conquer and garrison sizeable chunks of China is-historically-ridiculous. Not critiquing anyone's play here at all as it appears excellent. Just commenting that this could not and would not have been remotely possible IRL.

The population of India at this time was over half a billion. Same for China. No way.

The British navy and air force could be removed from the game and this still would not be possible with anything short of atomic weapons for the Japs.

I am a bit disappointed that the designers did not foresee this "Asia First" strategy. There should be literally hordes of units released to defend India that are obviously not modeled. To say nothing of garrison requirements.

Fun idea, just not history.

The equivilant of this would be to allow a surprise 1942 invasion of the Japanese mainland and not allow for massive garrison units. These units ARE in the game.

The China modeling problem has been previously discussed in other threads. Those Japanese troops hundreds of miles inland should be attriting at a huge rate. There was no way to logistically supply anywhere close to this number. Heck, the native Chinese were starving. How would all these combat troops survive? Superhighways or railroad construction on an epic scale.

Sorry, rant over. Not suggesting that the game shouldn't allow flexibility, just would like it to have to be within reasonable historic limitations.

SteveV

[sveint]

is-historically-ridiculous

I respectfully disagree. People tend to label anything that didn't happen as 'ahistorical'.

Anyway, carry on - this is everyone's favorite AAR!

[Gen.Hoepner]

Great AAR indeed. Keep it up!

[Delphinium]

I agree with the critique of game, but from the much discussed perspective that the game cannot react to the huge range of possible Japanese strategic variants it permits. You have to remember these are the guys doing the REAL Beta testing[;)]

The same applies to the strategy of attacking/capturing PH which everybody knows is within the scope of a competent Japanese player. Can anybody consider that the US would not have transferred some of the naval/air/land forces from the Atlantic if the threat to Pearl was real an present?

I like WitP, but the developers could never make it more than a limited sandbox that works reasonably well if play follows close to history. I enjoy these AAR's, but I also used to enjoy Turtledove's novels too [:D]

[kaiser73]

ORIGINAL: SteveV

What are the garrison requirements the computer is imposing for the Japs to keep Chandpur? It should be enormous to say the least.

This is probably a good object lesson on how ahistorical play can break the simulation. The idea that the Japanese could have succesfully transported, invaded and occupied any significant territory in the Indian sub-continent, much less simultaneously conquer and garrison sizeable chunks of China is-historically-ridiculous. Not critiquing anyone's play here at all as it appears excellent. Just commenting that this could not and would not have been remotely possible IRL.

The population of India at this time was over half a billion. Same for China. No way.

The British navy and air force could be removed from the game and this still would not be possible with anything short of atomic weapons for the Japs.

I am a bit disappointed that the designers did not foresee this "Asia First" strategy. There should be literally hordes of units released to defend India that are obviously not modeled. To say nothing of garrison requirements.

Fun idea, just not history.

The equivilant of this would be to allow a surprise 1942 invasion of the Japanese mainland and not allow for massive garrison units. These units ARE in the game.

The China modeling problem has been previously discussed in other threads. Those Japanese troops hundreds of miles inland should be attriting at a huge rate. There was no way to logistically supply anywhere close to this number. Heck, the native Chinese were starving. How would all these combat troops survive? Superhighways or railroad construction on an epic scale.

Sorry, rant over. Not suggesting that the game shouldn't allow flexibility, just would like it to have to be within reasonable historic limitations.

SteveV

Please explain to me how UK was able to control 500 milions Indian while Japan couldn't. The garrison requirements, if added, should be added for english too. India was seeking independence.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: kaiser73
Please explain to me how UK was able to control 500 milions Indian while Japan couldn't. The garrison requirements, if added, should be added for english too. India was seeking independence.

Ghandi was a english mercenery. Didn't you know?[:D]

SteveV: seriously, i think this AAR shouldn't be hijacked by "socio-political" issues.

[PzB74]

Thanx for your encouraging posts gentles [:)]
Must admit that I'm having trouble concentrating on assignments when I got a WitP turn in my inbox..

As with all 'what if' operations, endless discussions can be had on whether it would be a realistic approach or not.
So I'm just going to work with what I got and see were it takes me. I did read a book chapter about a potential Jap invasion of India - following much the same lines as I'm doing now. It failed in the end though, but the Japs stayed until 1944 and managed to capture huge chunks of India.

Holding an Empire is much more difficult than actually aquiring one - just ask Adolf and Tojo [;)]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/15/42

Surface Combat

Sub/ASW Attacks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 15,23

Japanese Ships
SS RO-63

Allied Ships
DD Bulmer
DD Isis - is hit, but torpedoes fails to detonate...
DD Fortune
DD Barker
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 14,23

Japanese Ships
SS I-18, hits 10, on fire, heavy damage - goodbye...

Allied Ships
DD Barker
DD Isis
DD Fortune
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Night Air attack on Sian , at 47,29

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
IL-4c x 3
SB-2c x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
IL-4c: 2 damaged
SB-2c: 2 destroyed

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x IL-4c bombing at 8000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Sian , at 47,29

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
IL-4c x 3
SB-2c x 4

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
IL-4c: 2 damaged
SB-2c: 2 destroyed

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x IL-4c bombing at 8000 feet
3 x SB-2c bombing at 8000 feet
----------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kungchang , at 46,26

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 19

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 7 destroyed - these guys are good!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Colombo at 14,24

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 9 - extreme long range attack!

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Isis
DD Fortune, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Colombo at 14,24

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 18 - another one

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Fortune, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage - good results too!
DD Barker, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at 29,33

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 81700 troops, 813 guns, 130 vehicles

Defending force 42303 troops, 359 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
4356 casualties reported *augh* [:(]
Guns lost 142
Vehicles lost 19

Allied ground losses:
808 casualties reported
Guns lost 20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Kungchang

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 61209 troops, 489 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 9211 troops, 75 guns, 144 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
66 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4844 troops, 45 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1981 troops, 3 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Dimapur

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 1432 troops, 33 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 2655 troops, 15 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0) - checked!

Allied ground losses:
258 casualties reported
Guns lost 14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation Report

Tomorrow the Army in India will move into Dacca! That will be an interesting struggle, if this base also falls as easily as Chandpur did....I don't think anything can stop me from reaching the set objectives.

The first Allied attempt to recapture Dimapur failed, and I'm continuing to airlift reinforcements. As we captured a huge stockpile of supplies, this is not a worry. Matters are different at Imphal though, but that base is much closer to my other bases.

There are issues - I've burned a lot of fuel, but think I got sufficient left to support the invasion of Trincomalee which should come down in less than a week.

In China progress towards Kungching is slow as fatigue is getting high. If Wobbly counterattacks, a few units will be ejected I'm afraid. He said that only 1 unit attacked yesterday as he cancelled an initial attack order for the other units.

It's dead quiet in the South Pacific - eerie! Al told me that I would have no time to redeploy the KB either...
I'm afraid he's really up to something, but I have no idea were he's going to hit. Told him that Tarawa is my best guess.
Can't reinforce this base as I don't have enough air support in the area. A few cv's would sink everything in range outright.

So this is my response to this so called Op. Rapier:
1. All base building in the South Pacific is cancelled and fort construction stepped up.
2. 1 ca and 7 dd's are moving from Tokyo to Truk
3. 2 cl and 6 dd's are moving from Kendari to Truk (loaded with a SNLF unit originally intended for Rabaul)
4. A troop convoy is heading towards Saipan
5. 4 Zero, 1 Sally, 3 Betty and Kate Daitais' are moving from Java, Kendari and Japan towards Saipan and Truk

I'm not sure how I can use these units against an invasion supported by 4-5 carriers, have to see what happens.
No matter how painful it gets, I'm going to finish Hangover before redeploying the KB. This means at least another 2-3 months...at the best!

[SteveV]

Gentlemen:

I was not trying to "hijack" the thread or AAR. I believe I stressed that it reflected excellent play on both sides and is a wonderful read.

What I was trying to point out is that it is illustrating flaws in the "virtual sandbox" to quote from above that the simulation is trying to model. If the game allows this "Asia First" strategy without allowing/requiring substantial Anglo forces to be released and massive garrison requirements then this is something we need to be aware of. We don't have "historical" data on this because the actual Japanese didn't--and I would submit--could NOT have done this operation.

We have better evidence in China. The Japanese did not advance into China as is being accomplished quite easily in this (and other) replays. The major 2 culprits were logisitics and population. Furthermore, there was nothing of value for the Japanese to take--which the WitP model unfortunately does reward. The only time the Japanese moved any substantial distance into the mainland was during 1944 to overun strategic air bases. They did so relatively decisively--but in a much smaller area for a short period of time.

If discussing garrison and logistical requirements for a bold strategy is "socio political" then forgive me. I thought those were wargame considerations.

This plan is brilliant and helps show the model needs help.

Again, the best example would be if the Japanese homeland was not modeled with significant garrisons in 1942-3 since the US did not "historically" invade directly. Would everyone applaud a "bold" US invasion in 1942 which conquers the Japanese industrial base even though it would be completely impossible? How about a 1942 invasion of France? How about a Japanese invasion of the West Coast? The game doesn't handle that well either. I bet John could take those same 200K troops and drop them into San Fran and make hay also--do you want that to happen?

Again, this game is excellent and excellently played. The AAR report itself has been wonderful. All players playing both sides are indebted to John's bold effort since we now know the model has problems and we better account for it or else get Matrix to fix it or make house rules. That is assuming that in the long run this works out for John, which I believe it will.

SteveV

[Huskalator]

The allies have the unfair advantage of being able to look at history and prepare ahead of time. This makes thing just as ahistorical.

I think the ability of Japan to pull off a maneuver like this is good for the game and keeps the allied player honest.

[Andy Mac]

I for one would not argue that the offensive OOB of the allies is wrong I think its defensive may be a bit understated (although I wonder where the 56th UK Division was).

However we play the game we are given andas you say it stops an Allied player being to aggressive with forces from India which lets face it if I knew that the 2nd the Japanes invaded I would get 3 or 4 UK/ CW Divisions then I would be a lot more willing to take risks as the UK so much as I hate to say it we should just play the game as is as its the best balance of honesty/ reality and ahistorical that we are going to find IMHO.

[Honda]

I think India should be left as it is. There will always be someone saying the lacks this, that, etc. but that doesn't mean those changes have to be accepted. And India can be easily defended using deep defence and keeping your airforce deep inland whan faced with the KB onslought. Every measure has a countermeasure.
Anyway, great AAR. Again. But, he11, you can never have too much praise, right?

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

You got that right ! I need a way to block this AAR thread from my opponents.[;)]

Certainly will make the Allied player think twice about simply stuffing Mandalay, Rangoon and Akyab with most, if not all of their best LCU's And thank god they dont have to use any of em to quell the series of domestic disturbances that brewed up in India during 42!