Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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EUBanana
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by EUBanana »

ORIGINAL: herwin

The RN got 50% hits at 600-1000 yds in simulated torpedo attacks by destroyers at night in peacetime.

I seem to remember some tests Jellicoe did before WW1 broke out that suggested torpedoes were effective at far greater ranges than that, if the target did not maneuver to avoid anyway.
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anarchyintheuk
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by anarchyintheuk »

The 40k range was irrelevant for combat purposes. I don't know of a single hit above 15k or so except maybe the Kortenauer (sp?) and the IJN transports at Java Sea.
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Dixie
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by Dixie »

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: herwin

The RN got 50% hits at 600-1000 yds in simulated torpedo attacks by destroyers at night in peacetime.

I seem to remember some tests Jellicoe did before WW1 broke out that suggested torpedoes were effective at far greater ranges than that, if the target did not maneuver to avoid anyway.

That's a fantastic conclusion [:D]
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oldman45
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by oldman45 »

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: herwin

The RN got 50% hits at 600-1000 yds in simulated torpedo attacks by destroyers at night in peacetime.

I seem to remember some tests Jellicoe did before WW1 broke out that suggested torpedoes were effective at far greater ranges than that, if the target did not maneuver to avoid anyway.

That's a fantastic conclusion [:D]

Were public funds used in this study [:D]
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EUBanana
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by EUBanana »

ORIGINAL: Dixie
That's a fantastic conclusion [:D]

Pff, well, I can't remember the exact conclusions. [:D] At what range and how many hits. I remember there were numbers but those are lost in the mists of time. IIRC it was mentioned in 'Jutland' by Captain Donald McIntyre (top book btw).

Too many for Jellicoe's taste is the point! He was quite a scientific, technical sort of admiral, and the torpedo was always foremost in his mind. Hence he did what he did at Jutland, a dry technician weighing the odds, rather than a 'damn the torpedoes' type like Beatty might have been.
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Djordje
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by Djordje »

ORIGINAL: CraigDeaton

Does it seem to anyone besides me that perhaps the torpedo part of surface combat was nerfed a bit too much?

I agree with you... I've had about dozen of surface combats so far, and I haven't seen a single Long Lance hit on a warship.
Those destroyers seems to be on steroids, it took me full KB (6 CVs) and 3 days of strikes to kill 3 allied destroyers... KB spent all torpedoes it had (I know those were not Long Lance but still torpedo can't hit DD in AE atm, at least for me)
Dili
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by Dili »

The 40k range was irrelevant for combat purposes. I don't know of a single hit above 15k or so except maybe the Kortenauer (sp?) and the IJN transports at Java Sea.


Yes and even if the enemy isn't aware and isn't zig-zagging there alaways small changes in speed and direction. 30km(navweaps max range) is around 30 min interception time at 37kt. In 30min many things can happen.

Btw anyone has information at what max distance IJN fired their torpedos. I suspect no more than 10km. ?
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EUBanana
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by EUBanana »

Just doled out another one sided surface combat asskicking to the Japs at night, thanks to radar in 1942.  The latest in a long line.

As an AFB, for once I have to agree with the JFBs.  Something Needs to be Done.
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by Nikademus »

It has.

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John Lansford
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by John Lansford »

I had my first LongLance torpedo hit in about 6 weeks of gametime, from a fleet destroyer escorting a small TF south of Kendari.  HMS Mauritius took one and has about 35 flotation damage now, slowly limping south towards Darwin.  My sunk ship list only has a small handful of ships sunk from LL hits, mostly merchant ships caught by roving raider TF's.  The list of IJN ships sunk from USN or RN torpedoes, OTOH, is very long, including several cruisers and Kongo, brought down by a MTB's torpedo...
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by CV Zuikaku »

Here is my most successfull surface combat so far. As an IJN, I'm out of ships. All have ben slaugtered by super accurate allied small naval ship gunfire. Until some tuning this game is not playable for japanese player. And I wonder if it is for Allied players, since they'll slaugter IJN By March '42 or earlier... [&:]


Night Time Surface Combat, near Tarakan at 67,91, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Naka, Shell hits 7
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 9, heavy fires
DD Minegumo, Shell hits 2
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Murasame, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
DD Harusame
DD Yudachi, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Samidare

Allied Ships
DD Van Nes, Shell hits 1
DD Evertsen, Shell hits 11, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk



Reduced sighting due to 53% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 53% moonlight: 11,000 yards
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
DD Evertsen engages CL Naka at 1,000 yards
CL Naka engages DD Van Nes at 1,000 yards
DD Evertsen engages DD Murasame at 1,000 yards
DD Evertsen engages DD Asagumo at 1,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Evertsen at 1,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Evertsen at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
DD Evertsen engages CL Naka at 2,000 yards
DD Van Nes engages DD Asagumo at 2,000 yards
DD Yudachi sunk by DD Van Nes at 2,000 yards
DD Evertsen engages DD Harusame at 2,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Evertsen at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
DD Asagumo sunk by DD Evertsen at 4,000 yards
DD Van Nes engages DD Murasame at 4,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Evertsen at 4,000 yards
CL Naka engages DD Evertsen at 4,000 yards
DD Van Nes engages DD Natsugumo at 4,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Van Nes at 4,000 yards
DD Evertsen engages DD Minegumo at 4,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Van Nes at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CL Naka engages DD Evertsen at 6,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Evertsen at 6,000 yards
DD Evertsen sunk by DD Murasame at 6,000 yards
de Vries, W.M. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 9,000 yards
DD Van Nes engages DD Minegumo at 9,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Van Nes at 9,000 yards
Task forces break off...
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EUBanana
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by EUBanana »

Yeah, in my Guadalcanal scenario the Japs have lost or drawn every single surface engagement so far.  Mostly more or less evenly matched in forces I think. 
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Dili
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by Dili »

In above engagement 37 shell hits vs 12 shell hits. But since it is night combat it more possible than some really awkard/impossible day results. How the engagement stated at 1000yds w/ visibility of 11kyd was it in bad weather?
John Lansford
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by John Lansford »

I jumped a supply TF at Canton with a force of two CL's, a CA and 6 DD's.  I was surprised to find it escorted by CA Nachi and two DD's, plus a TB, for only 2 largish transports.  In a daytime engagement my CL/DD force closed in from 21,000 yards, not getting hit even once, down to 4000 yds, sank Nachi and the escorting DD's and left the two largish transports burning fiercely.

My damage?  A minor shell hit on one of the DD's and a torpedo hit on my CA that didn't sink it. 

I have to say that I believe the surface warfare combat routines are far, FAR too liberal when it comes to hitting small ships, accuracy of rapid firing weapons, and not enough weight given to nighttime experience and overall crew experience.
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Barb
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by Barb »

I have conducted some tests. You can see results in AAR section (especially posts number 4, 5 and 6) : tm.asp?m=2215485
Use Mission speed for your TFs and you will not see Ridiculous Surface Combat Results again...
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Kull
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Barb

I have conducted some tests. You can see results in AAR section (especially posts number 4, 5 and 6) : tm.asp?m=2215485
Use Mission speed for your TFs and you will not see Ridiculous Surface Combat Results again...

I think your results are interesting, but I've never once sent SCTFs into harm's way on "Cruise" speed, and have never seen the AI do it either.
John Lansford
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by John Lansford »

Why should you reduce your ships' speed going into combat?  That wouldn't make any sense at all; every surface battle always had ships steaming at full speed to make themselves harder to hit.  The problem is the combat routines are taking this to an extreme.
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Why should you reduce your ships' speed going into combat?  That wouldn't make any sense at all; every surface battle always had ships steaming at full speed to make themselves harder to hit.  The problem is the combat routines are taking this to an extreme.


To increase the accuracy of your gunfire. High speeds create vibration, increase ship motion, and complicate firing solutions...
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oldman45
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by oldman45 »

In my game its Dec 42 and the IJN is a shadow of its strength. They have no fleet carriers or CVL's. That includes the 2 they used accelerated production to bring out. They love parking them at Oosthaven and my cruisers sail out from Java and sink them. I can't wait for the patch to give the AI a better chance.

As far as the speed of the TF's I never change it unless the ships are damaged and heading to a port for repair. I have seen what I expect when I catch their amphib groups or they catch mine, but the combat between warships especially BB's is really off.
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RE: Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

Post by Mynok »


So apparently there is some difference now between Mission Speed and Cruise Speed in Surface Combat TFs now?
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