Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

[Walloc]

Well i've seen examples of units not on refit, above NM, but below 50 and 10+ hexes away from enemy. Getting moral increases faster too but its mostly annecdotal as i havent tested it. Again if i read the bug fix correct it only goes to regain below NM which is not the case in above stated case.

Note in 9.1.1 there are 2 rules for units to gain moral below 50, outside of the below NM regain rule and then the good supply rule capped at 75. One with on refit and +10 hexe away and one not on refit and +10 hexes away. So there is that provision and some things suggest that this goes faster too. The non refit, but below 50 moral, but above NM, 10 hexes way moral regain.
Why i think it affects the post 1.07.06 moral gains in general, but i certainly could be wrong.

[mktours]

Joel, here is some feedback
i have recently play 2 Pbem game as German after 1.0708, 1 won, 1 is in very commanding situation with the game slowing down and i am still waiting my opponent's turn.
i have also played the game in 1.06 version, and i could see that the soviet side has been strengthened after 1.0708, that forced me to adjust my strategy and tactics, but the German side is still getting the upper hand.
my idea is that the German side still have much potential to be exploited, the more challenge, the better.

Btw, i would like to invite some good player who is advocating the current morale system is favoring the soviet side to play a Pbem game with me ( i would be the German side), and we could both do a AAR. if anyone is interested, please pm me.

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Somewhere back in this thread there was a post about a unit's morale going up from 97 to 99 without being involved in combat. If I didn't already say it, this is clearly a bug if it happened. The only way morale can go up like that would be if the unit won some battles (was it attacked by the Soviets?). I've seen no other reports of this kind of morale increase so if it's happening, I bet it's incredibly rare. If you see something like this happen we'd love to get a before and after save.

I spoke with Ketza at Historicon and he was telling me that he's found increasing German Morale a little (105% in his latest case) is a great balancing tool for 2 player games. It seems to work better than adjusting Soviet morale. This leads me to think that for players that don't care what side they're going to play, they could use German morale in some kind of bidding way to determine which player was going to play German (the person willing to play with the lower German morale setting would get the German side).

Sometime in the next few weeks we'll take a serious look at possibly making a change or two and we'll review the feedback in this thread. We'll be limited to morale changes as we're not opening up the rest of the game. Bigger changes will have to wait until WitE 2.0 down the road. Thanks for the feedback.

[Michael T]

Please someone take this guy on and show him the truth of the matter....

[mktours]

Well, Michael, i would be happy to play against anyone under 100-100 in this version as German, even against you, though i am not saying i could match you of course. the truth isn't decided yet, [:)]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Please someone take this guy on and show him the truth of the matter....

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Please someone take this guy on and show him the truth of the matter....

he is right MT the morale system at 100 vs 100 favors GHC ALLOT in the long run and I mean allot.The down side is 1941, but just because you can not easly win in 1941 any more does not mean the system is broken. It simply means you have to play the games out.

I agree that the 50 rule needs to be dropped to 45, but other then that the game is as perfect as it can be.

You been the best at fuel and 1941, but there is another world 42-45 and its 100% about morale/ defensive systems/ disbanding units ect ect.

The bugs that were removed has made getting draws as GHC allot easyer. As long as GHC does not blow there good morale from 1941 they are set.

[Michael T]

mktours, nothing would please me more than to enlighten you. But sadly I do not have the time. Perhaps one day. But I am sure there are others who could prove the point.

Pelton your morale farming days will soon be over. See my bug report.

[mktours]

"enlightn" isn't a good word, i am not happy with that word, you didn't know my ability other than i am a newcomer to this forum, that is not approriate for you to use this word. according to my impression, you are the ace in this forum, and i respect that, but you know little about me. it is unjust and impolite that you make judgement on someone who you know so little.
edited: well, maybe i didn't understand the word correctly as i am not a native english speaker, anyway, it might not be serious and we can get alone with.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

mktours, nothing would please me more than to enlighten you. But sadly I do not have the time. Perhaps one day. But I am sure there are others who could prove the point.

Pelton your morale farming days will soon be over. See my bug report.

[Michael T]

Well I do not intend to offend you. Perhaps 'prove the point' is more appropriate than 'enlighten'. I apologize for any unintended disrespect you may have perceived.

[mktours]

that will be fine,[:)]
as i had edited in my post above, i am no a native english speaker and might not perceive the word correctly, i am sure we could be friends.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Well I do not intend to offend you. Perhaps 'prove the point' is more appropriate than 'enlighten'. I apologize for any unintended disrespect you may have perceived.

[Don77]

Guards Units

Another impact of the currently high Sov morale - getting Guards status is quicker, and of greater volume. I am at T16 (playing Ge) against a good opponent, and the Sovs now have close to 20 Guards Rifle Divs. This may be directly from combat victories, or though better morale indirectly contributing to higher base morale or resilience? Right now my opponent is counter attacking with multiple Guards Divs (grouped into armies). Interestingly, this in turn could contribute to the 'snowball effect'; that Pelton talks about (this time in the Sovs favour)

Appreciate anyone else's insights to whether there are more Guards in 41 their experiences?

Don

[Michael T]

I think there are more for sure. Higher CV equals more attack opportunities, more victories, more Guards.

[morvael]

There is little of diminishing returns in this game, we mainly see effects of positive feedback loop - that leads to various over the top situations. The limits are supposed to be there (like morale drops for units with morale way over NM), but they are too weak to compensate gains from other rules.

[morvael]

I made some tests and I saw up to 3 points increase in morale after victorious combat, but only for units several points below NM. Units with good morale (on or over NM) usually did not get anything. However, this behavior changes immediately with global morale setting over 100, where every unit every time got at least 1 point morale bump after each victorious combat. The problem with "difficulty" settings in the game is that you think of them as linear, but they are not - several bonuses kicks in once a certain level is passed. We knew about the 120 level that did some wonders for the AI, 101 may be another such threshold which gives too much morale from combat.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Don77

Guards Units

Another impact of the currently high Sov morale - getting Guards status is quicker, and of greater volume. I am at T16 (playing Ge) against a good opponent, and the Sovs now have close to 20 Guards Rifle Divs. This may be directly from combat victories, or though better morale indirectly contributing to higher base morale or resilience? Right now my opponent is counter attacking with multiple Guards Divs (grouped into armies). Interestingly, this in turn could contribute to the 'snowball effect'; that Pelton talks about (this time in the Sovs favour)

Appreciate anyone else's insights to whether there are more Guards in 41 their experiences?

Don

I hope they lower the behind the front 10 hexes morale from 50 to 45, which would end the over powered 41 SHC.

A very simple fix that would make the game as good as it will get until wite 2

[morvael]

Don77, morale is not directly responsible for guards status, only win counter is. Perhaps you give your opponent chances to score wins by leaving weak screens he can attack, or by making failed hasty attacks? A meagre 7 wins (and no more than 7 defeats) is all that is required to get guards in '41.

[vinnie71]

My experiences are limited to playing against the AI so maybe this is a bit off topic here. BTW don't consider myself a top notch player either

Started a campain as the Axis on normal. Presently I am in October in the mud phase prior to the Blizzard. This is what I observed with the new patch:

1. The Soviets are much tougher both inside and outside of pockets. Hasty attacks don't work that often and I'm limiting such attacks only in the 'open' hexes. Any other type of hex, and even a single infantry division can stop a top notch panzer division. Repeatedly.

2. Mopping up operations take quite some time especially for big pockets. Ex the opening pocket at Minsk took me roughly 3 weeks to liquidate especially since there were some hard nuts to crack, usually using 2 infantry divisions launching deliberate attacks.

3. Soviet AI kind of grew gutsy. It made a concerted effort to hold Pskov and committed substantial forces to the battle there while building its position around Leningrad. It managed to hold me in check for about 4 weeks until infantry from Army Group North. Incidentally, it overcommitted to the battle and once I broke through, the Valdai Hills gap was unprotected and just sent a panzer corps through there.

4. Soviet AI also fought well on the river obstacles and in many cases mounted a creditible defence. Only a quick seizure of Kiev and by sneaking panzer divisions over the rivers could one make rapid progress. Otherwise, I had to wait for the infantry to slog it to the front.

5. Soviet defence later fell apart on all fronts except the north when it continued to defend the north at all costs. the centre was left wide open and could have reached Moscow if I wanted to though I declined the invite because I was already overextended and didn't want to kill off the game (I'd love to continue playing till '45 to see all the units for once).

6. Having said that, what surprised me most was that once afforded a breather from turn 14 or so, I've seen the AI attacking already. In the north it eliminated 2 fortified zones carlessly placed upfront while in the centre it must have concentrated a lot of its strength and mounted 6 and 9 division attacks, pushing back my front line infantry. Although the bulk of the front is covered by weak brigades of all kinds, in front of Moscow and even up north (despite the fall of Leningrad), the AI has quickly moved in limited offensive mode, picking at the weak points of my line.


So in all honesty, with the current patch, the game feels like its being played on hard or so, rather than normal. Its an interesting experience but I guess in MP mode it has unbalanced the game a bit. I've also seen at least 3 guard units (2 divisions and a brigade) popping up, but I don't know if its an AI thing or just the result of my actions.

[SigUp]

Honestly, the higher morale gains are great for single player against the Soviet AI. Especially if you increase the morale settings to 110 or higher and lower the German logistics to 60 or so, you really have to struggle to get to the historical lines. German losses are also much higher with those strong Soviet units and as it is the AI it really fights forward and also allows you to create good pockets, while forcing you to be careful and not leave a unit exposed (I once lost 90 of 120 tanks after a Panzer Division was pushed back...). Furthermore in those battles one really feels the worth of the Luftwaffe ground support. The Stukas, He-111 and Ju-88s really turned a lot of 50-50 or even 40-60 battles in my favour. But yeah, against a human opponent those morale levels are a killer, especially since 50+ morale Soviet units won't rout.

[vinnie71]

Agreed. The Soviets have become tougher, but what surprised me was the fact that the AI chose to fight up front. I've seen it set up pretty good and solid defences around Pskov and later on around Moscow. The fact that units don't rout that often also means that losses for the soviets have gone down while losses for the Axis have gone up. Incidentally, some brigades in rough terrain also became a bit of a pain in the neck given that they can't be dislodged easily.
 
BTW the axis minor allies have become even more useless though since even the Finns have to deliberately attack almost all the time. The Romanians have become a joke in '41 though I'm hoping that a winter at home or in garrison might raise their morale a bit. My hope rests on the fact that one division (4 Infantry) had its morale at 55 when it became active and therefore other units might have their morale rise as well.
 
One last thing - I haven't seen any Hiwis come on line. When are they supposed to start appearing in units? Wasn't it in October '41 (like the use of Soviet weaponry)?

[SigUp]

I think Hiwis start from January 1942 onwards. As for the Axis minors, you can use the same 1.07 changes. Granted, the Rumanian divisions that are active from turn 3 on with their 40 morale or so are useless, unless you stack them high. But for those that activate later, just set them to refit and watch all of them get up to 50, in some cases even more, morale. I think right now in March 1942, aside from those few divisions that suffered from the blizzard in the Crimea, no Rumanian division is below 50 morale. Same counts for the Hungarians. But yes, the AI utilizes good terrain rather good. I initially thought that with the AI committing to a tough defence South of the Luga (a mistake, I drove my panzers through a hole to the sea and trapped like 200.000 men) the Valdai area would be lightly guarded, as I did not see many units in front of the Lovat. Guessed wrong. The AI had units set there behind the river, when my infantry arrived they were already in level 2 forts, so north of Kholm the advance halted in August 41.

[mmarquo]

The solution to the problem, if there really is a problem, may be very complex:

"The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit)."

This means that a Soviet unit with a morale of 40 in 6/41 could be to 50 in 3 moves, even without moving off the front 10 hexes away...


"The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than 75. If Die (75) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible."

This rule greatly favors the Soviets initially (except for maybe the support situation), and the Axis later. Does this need tweaking?


"v1.04.10 - April 18, 2011
Adjusted the amount of morale a unit loses after a battle. Now units are not guaranteed to lose a morale point when a battle is lost. The higher a unit’s morale is over its national morale, the greater the chance the morale will be reduced when it loses a battle."

This rule change maybe having extreme consequences in the current patch - pleased reexamine this [&:] The Soviets need to lose some morale after losing every battle in 1941.

"v1.07.08 – May 6, 2013
Greatly reduced the chance that a unit below its national morale will receive the die(10% of national morale) increase in morale."

Does this need to be reduced more for the Soviets??? Should the chances be different for the different nationalities?


Now, another question: are these 3 effects additive??? Can a Soviet unit with a morale of 40, sitting in refit mode 10 hexes away from the closest supplied enemy unit receive a morale boost for each condition: 10 hexes away, in Refit 10 hexes from a supplied enemy unit and the 10% national morale boost?



Marquo