When?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

For what it's worth, Just my opinion. I must have an AI or I won't buy.

Hi vonRocko, what its worth, nothing [:D] your opinion thats okay I respect it.[&o]

Bo

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

(first time poster, 23 year wif player, lurking on the "when" forum for ... a long time)

I have no clue, of course, what is behind the July date, but consider also another possibility. I've noticed a few companies lately selling "Beta" versions of their game with an equivalent price discount off the "release" version.

They could release without a functioning AI and slap the label "Beta" on it. They could easily make it clear that the Beta version doesn't have a "computer opponent", but the final version will. They could frame it as simply "testing Netplay" or something.

The profile of the game would be increased, with far less chance of damaging the brand appeal when it comes out with AI. (If it ever does. As I told my friend Larry about 15 years ago...if they ever make an AI that can play WiF well enough to provide even a minor challenge, we should all dig holes in the ground. That AI will go all Terminator on us.)

Welcome to the forum.[;)]

Have no fear of a Terminator AI from MWIF. It would view the world as hexagons and sea areas.[;)] If things got really desperate, we could always hide out at one of the poles, since they aren't on the MWIF map.[:D]

[mlees]

Hi.

I haven't been around since a while. I since lurk through once a quarter, and check out this section, and the "War in the Pacific" forum.

I would like to thank everybody who keeps the hope of this title alive. This is one of those "if I was emperor of the universe, what computer games would I order to be made?" selections.

I can't imagine that Steve thought it was going to take so long to get the game. When did he start? 2005?

I've managed to play CWIF solo, I think a much more stable version with no opponent would be a dream come true.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: bo


Damn I knew the word selfishness would be the wrong word to use,[:-] I went back about a year and a half and read all the posts and I went back to when I joined in jan. 2005 under the name of Willycube an the AI is a dirty word here then and now. I am trying to come up with a word other than selfishness and egocentrism Jose so we can reach a middle ground here. What part of "if the game comes out without an AI, all money would be refunded if say Matix did not have the AI one year later, of course in writing" And of course they could renege but that might be a disaster. And what part of "whats done is done for July's completion date" do some people not get it, not referring to just you Jose. I am not fighting the no AI, and I did say I would buy it without an AI, but from my viewpoint until the AI comes out this will not be a complete game. Do I have illusions about a good AI in a game this complex with 42 million hex's [:D] No I do not, if Steve gets a soso AI up and running I will be happy as a lark with some hope of a better AI down the road. I would really like to know how many of you WIF boardgamers are playing PBEM or Net play right now with any game. And if you are not playing or playing very little how do you know that Matrix MWIF pbem will be to your liking. Not an argument just curious. It almost sounds like Bo shut the hell up Steve might be listening to you about the AI. Rest easy I would be the last person he would listen to. Its his game and he will do what he feels best for all concerned.

Bo

Bo, egocentrism is not really a wrong word, it means the person looks at the world from his own point of view, not empatizing with others. Better not to be egocentric but no way unusual in society.

As for the AI, a so-so AI is worth a bullshit, that's for sure. I can remember hundreds of comments on the TW series because although the AI is not bad, it has some serious issues, specially in sieges when, sometimes, it would simply let the army in front of the castle receive your arrows loads until there are no more arrows left and then wait for the battle end without attacking. AI must be competitive or nothing. You get bored of a so-so AI in a week if not earlier.

And judging for what I can see, and although people would prefer to die than acknowlegge it (they won't easily accept that an AI is better than them) there are AIs that are actually better than humans. And it's not a new thing. I am thinking of http://www.matrixgames.com/products/310 ... s.in.Italy and http://www.matrixgames.com/products/281 ... n.Normandy . Of course these are much simpler games than MWIF.

PBEM can give a lot of problems, judging for what I saw at Red Prince posts, it's a disgrace if you have to send an email to say that you are port attacking, then the other guy needs to say if there will be caps or not(email), then you attack (email) , then the other guy sends interceptors or not (email), and there is a result (email), then ground sticking, declare all ground strickes, then email, the other guy says which ones he will send caps (email), and so on. I consider it unpracticable, although I would like to be proved wrong.

And however, if somebody loves WIF, and for some reason he cannot play online (time zones or one of them cannot be a lot of time online continuatedly) they may apreciate this feature.

[npilgaard]

Excellent post, Aaron - thanks!

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
(...)
Steve works daily, with a passion that I've never seen before,
(...)

The time this project has gone on taken into account it is a truly impressive commitment! Again, thanks for the effort, Steve!
(It must be quite satisfying, both to follow the progress of the program/game - ones very own work - and now to be able to actually see the finish line on the horizon [not sure you can use that expression in English(?)[:)] ] )

[rmdesantis]

Joseignacio

If I recall correctly, one of the features that Steve had mentioned (years ago, it seems) to help facilitate PBEM was standing orders. That way, a lot of the petty back-and-forth communication that you are concerned about could be administered without delaying the game significantly.

Speaking personally, PBEM, in conjunction with NetPlay, would be the ideal way to handle this game. Just on this forum we have players from time zones spanning the globe - the possibility of NetPlay with someone in another time zone would practically be limited, but in concert with PBEM you could construct a reasonable game. I'm not trying to start a flame war, just saying that there is a place for all of these features.

Mike

[Joseignacio]

Of course, rmdesantis. I think we are all debating calmly (by now, and I hope in the future), besides nobody can be against PBEM, I was just pointing some problems that I could see about it's practicity.

Yes, standing orders may help but still is not fine tunning. I may not want to send a CAP or intercept a port attack with 3 planes totalling 3 naval factors but I may want to do it against one only plane with 3 factors or a swarm of carrier planes port attack. The same stands for ground strikes, tactical bombing... you may want to use all or any of your fighters to intercept one critical attack but not the others, wether you left the "intercept" order ON or OFF you need to specify for these cases, which are frequent.

Of course those without other options will have to use whatever they can use, including Netplay, which will be an advance from not being able to play or diving hundreds of km or miles to be able to hold a game.

However, I am kind of reluctant to believe we cannot find some dozen opponents in our time zone, specially those living in Europe or USA, don't know elsewhere. A different matter is wanting to play with old friends who live in a far time zone... [:)]

[bo]

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona[:D] our bulls are out west thank god[;)] Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game [;)] Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing the Commonwealth, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France [:D] It is the end of July and Mrs Rojo says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August [;)] What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back[&:] or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month[;)]. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe[:D]]

Bo

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: bo

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona[:D] our bulls are out west thank god[;)] Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game [;)] Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing England, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France [:D] It is the end of July and Mrs Ignascio says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August [;)] What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back[&:] or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month[;)]. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe[:D]]

Bo

I've always got my Lap Top with me on vacation... [;)]
Together with all those very nice WiFi points, I think I would be all right, wouldn't I? [:D]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: bo

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona[:D] our bulls are out west thank god[;)] Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game [;)] Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing England, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France [:D] It is the end of July and Mrs Ignascio says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August [;)] What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back[&:] or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month[;)]. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe[:D]]

Bo

I've always got my Lap Top with me on vacation... [;)]
Together with all those very nice WiFi points, I think I would be all right, wouldn't I? [:D]

Thats why I did not put you in that game Centuur I knew you would bring up the laptop and ruin my presentation[:-]

Bo

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: bo

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona[:D] our bulls are out west thank god[;)] Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game [;)] Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing England, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France [:D] It is the end of July and Mrs Ignascio says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August [;)] What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back[&:] or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month[;)]. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe[:D]]

Bo

I'm always in Vegas for two weeks in August anyway. Given the level of play I'd expect from the AI, I'm happy to wait for the humans to return. [:'(]

But you make a good point, logistics issues increase exponentially as you add players. In a prior post, Bo, you asked how many play regularly online now. I play once a week using Vassal in netplay mode. 2-player with a two hour time difference. It works Ok for my friend down east but only because he doesn't mind starting and playing late. We played until 2 AM my time on one occasion but usually we are done by 2 AM his time.

Vassal has the ability to switch back and forth between netplay and PBEM which would be a better feature to have in MWiF than an AI IMO.

I recommend putting your efforts into finding compatible opponents rather than lobbying for an AI. They'll give you a far better game.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: bo

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona[:D] our bulls are out west thank god[;)] Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game [;)] Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing England, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France [:D] It is the end of July and Mrs Ignascio says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August [;)] What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back[&:] or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month[;)]. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe[:D]]

Bo

I'm always in Vegas for two weeks in August anyway. Given the level of play I'd expect from the AI, I'm happy to wait for the humans to return. [:'(]

But you make a good point, logistics issues increase exponentially as you add players. In a prior post, Bo, you asked how many play regularly online now. I play once a week using Vassal in netplay mode. 2-player with a two hour time difference. It works Ok for my friend down east but only because he doesn't mind starting and playing late. We played until 2 AM my time on one occasion but usually we are done by 2 AM his time.

Vassal has the ability to switch back and forth between netplay and PBEM which would be a better feature to have in MWiF than an AI IMO.

I recommend putting your efforts into finding compatible opponents rather than lobbying for an AI. They'll give you a far better game.

Wow you mad at me Paul, sorry did not know you played all the time, maybe because I did not say you play the Commonwealth and mistakenly used England [;)] Compatible opponets huh, you crazy I want to win everytime not lose[:D] But the truth is in the pudding and we will never know until Matrix comes out with the game and if PBEM and net play will really work well, I for one hope it does for all the non AI'ers

Bo

[paulderynck]

Hmmm, the best bet to win all the time will be if there's an AI, so you may well be on the right path after all.[:)]

[vonRocko]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: bo

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona[:D] our bulls are out west thank god[;)] Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game [;)] Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing England, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France [:D] It is the end of July and Mrs Ignascio says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August [;)] What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back[&:] or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month[;)]. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe[:D]]

Bo

I'm always in Vegas for two weeks in August anyway. Given the level of play I'd expect from the AI, I'm happy to wait for the humans to return. [:'(]

But you make a good point, logistics issues increase exponentially as you add players. In a prior post, Bo, you asked how many play regularly online now. I play once a week using Vassal in netplay mode. 2-player with a two hour time difference. It works Ok for my friend down east but only because he doesn't mind starting and playing late. We played until 2 AM my time on one occasion but usually we are done by 2 AM his time.

Vassal has the ability to switch back and forth between netplay and PBEM which would be a better feature to have in MWiF than an AI IMO.

I recommend putting your efforts into finding compatible opponents rather than lobbying for an AI. They'll give you a far better game.

I don't understand, If people are already able to play others online, why are they waiting for this game? What will be different? (hopefully an AI)

[bo]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Hmmm, the best bet to win all the time will be if there's an AI, so you may well be on the right path after all.[:)]

[;)]

Bo

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: bo

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona[:D] our bulls are out west thank god[;)] Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game [;)] Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing England, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France [:D] It is the end of July and Mrs Ignascio says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August [;)] What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back[&:] or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month[;)]. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe[:D]]

Bo

I'm always in Vegas for two weeks in August anyway. Given the level of play I'd expect from the AI, I'm happy to wait for the humans to return. [:'(]

But you make a good point, logistics issues increase exponentially as you add players. In a prior post, Bo, you asked how many play regularly online now. I play once a week using Vassal in netplay mode. 2-player with a two hour time difference. It works Ok for my friend down east but only because he doesn't mind starting and playing late. We played until 2 AM my time on one occasion but usually we are done by 2 AM his time.

Vassal has the ability to switch back and forth between netplay and PBEM which would be a better feature to have in MWiF than an AI IMO.

I recommend putting your efforts into finding compatible opponents rather than lobbying for an AI. They'll give you a far better game.

I don't understand, If people are already able to play others online, why are they waiting for this game? What will be different? (hopefully an AI)

You have to read more of the posts here. Many have commented that the difference is that MWiF will enforce all the rules without us having to look up stuff all the time. The rules for WiFFE are something like 128 pages. It will prevent errors like moving and attacking with units that are out of supply. Or moving them the wrong distance due to weather effects. Or moving ships too far because you overlook that it has a movement of 6 but is one of the rare CAs with a range of 4. It will calculate all the oil expenditure - which is considered by most players to be an almost unacceptable bookeeping overhead. It will ensure someone doesn't do their production wrong (for either players advantage). etc. etc.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: bo

Ah Jose, bull****, the only bull**** I know is in the corridas of Spain or on the streets of Pamplona[:D] our bulls are out west thank god[;)] Jose your points are well taken and bolster my feelings about an AI good or not. Now envision this [just being silly] we are playing each other one on one, no problem with PBEM, you can wait a day or a month for an answer because you might be playing 10 different people at once, of course trying to bring to mind different tactics for different folks in each game might be all right for you college guys but I would have trouble with one games tactics and what I was trying to accomplish in the game [;)] Now we go a step farther and we would like to go back to the old way, you know six players sitting around a cyber table. Lets see we have Paulderynck playing the Commonwealth, Froonp Germany, Composser99 USA, Warspite China, Red Prince Italy [no reason] and to tick off Jose he is France [:D] It is the end of July and Mrs Rojo says lets go Jose its August and we are going on vacation and we know all Euopeans take off the month of August [;)] What happens now if France has not fallen yet, do you sit around a month waiting for Jose to come back[&:] or Jose is in the middle of a hot game against Paulderynck and Pauly says what do you mean your going away for a month[;)]. In Net play the above scenario would be a disaster. So while Jose is away we could all play the AI even if it is bull*** just to keep in practice. Please don't get mad at me it is all tongue in cheek but it could happen. I am truly going to need all your help, when this game is released I promise exemplary behavior no matter what's in the game or not in the game [errrr maybe[:D]]

Bo

It could happen exactly like you say, but this happens to me too in the board game, so no enworsement.

As for Europe, I think there are big differences between countries, but in Spain you have at least 30 days most commonly. But although August is the most usual, it's not the only one, I think like 50% of the people goes on holidays in August, but like 30% in July, 10% in september and the rest along the other months. Also, some only take 20 in summer and reserve 10 for Christmas time. So it is (in fact) much worse than what you imagine, there may be several months with no action. Unless the one leaving is playing an extremely slow moment in the game, like Russia'40 (usually) and can leave some other play for him with some general instructions.

On the other side, Netplay would allow playing even at holidays if we want (like in Christmas if we are bored at our family's, Why not playing some hours in the afternoons?).

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

ORIGINAL: paulderynck




I'm always in Vegas for two weeks in August anyway. Given the level of play I'd expect from the AI, I'm happy to wait for the humans to return. [:'(]

But you make a good point, logistics issues increase exponentially as you add players. In a prior post, Bo, you asked how many play regularly online now. I play once a week using Vassal in netplay mode. 2-player with a two hour time difference. It works Ok for my friend down east but only because he doesn't mind starting and playing late. We played until 2 AM my time on one occasion but usually we are done by 2 AM his time.

Vassal has the ability to switch back and forth between netplay and PBEM which would be a better feature to have in MWiF than an AI IMO.

I recommend putting your efforts into finding compatible opponents rather than lobbying for an AI. They'll give you a far better game.

I don't understand, If people are already able to play others online, why are they waiting for this game? What will be different? (hopefully an AI)

You have to read more of the posts here. Many have commented that the difference is that MWiF will enforce all the rules without us having to look up stuff all the time. The rules for WiFFE are something like 128 pages. It will prevent errors like moving and attacking with units that are out of supply. Or moving them the wrong distance due to weather effects. Or moving ships too far because you overlook that it has a movement of 6 but is one of the rare CAs with a range of 4. It will calculate all the oil expenditure - which is considered by most players to be an almost unacceptable bookeeping overhead. It will ensure someone doesn't do their production wrong (for either players advantage). etc. etc.

Yep.

And Bo, I carry my laptop everywhere on holidays too, plus now many people (including me) have a mobile internet connection (in muy case only within Spain unfortunately) . So wifi (usually slow and bad quality) is not necessary anymore.

[vonRocko]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You have to read more of the posts here. Many have commented that the difference is that MWiF will enforce all the rules without us having to look up stuff all the time. The rules for WiFFE are something like 128 pages. It will prevent errors like moving and attacking with units that are out of supply. Or moving them the wrong distance due to weather effects. Or moving ships too far because you overlook that it has a movement of 6 but is one of the rare CAs with a range of 4. It will calculate all the oil expenditure - which is considered by most players to be an almost unacceptable bookeeping overhead. It will ensure someone doesn't do their production wrong (for either players advantage). etc. etc.

I see, thanks.

[vonRocko]

oops double post