MWIF Game Interface Design

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The "Load Transport" box should be place at 2 places.
It should be placed before the "Move Naval Units" box AND after the "Attempt Intercepts".
Loading units in ships can be performed at both moments.

Ok, but I want different names for these. The first in done while in port and the second is done while at sea.

How about : "Load from shore" ?

Ok.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp
In Page 2 :

The "Include Sea Boxes" box (Rule 11.5.5) should be before the "Surprise Points" box (Rule 11.5.6) (after the "Search" Box).

This piece of the sequence of play has some things happening simultaneously. The surprise points box is for indicating when the are determined, not when they are used. I am thinking of adding some indication of where surprise points can be used. Indeed, I am thinking of making separate sequence of play subsections for the 3 possible naval combat types: air, surface, and subs.

Getting back to your point, as part of the search rolls, the surprise points are calculated and in some instances, the combat type is determined without either player having any choice. The player who gets the upper hand in the search rolls has surprise points available and can use them at different places in the naval combat sequence. He also may be able to control the type of naval combat and select which sea boxes are involved in the combat. I believe the order that I have is ok, though others might work just as well.

Yes, but you must choose the enemy sea boxes you will include in combat (if the enemy has not found) BEFORE surprise be computed. This is obvious, as surprise calculation needs to know the Higher Sea Box number of each party.

I will have to review and revise the naval combat subsequence giving it more detail.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Actually these two items do not have a set order in CIWF or MWIF. The player can either one first. I wasn't sure how to handle that graphically and since it doesn't appear elsewhere in the sequence of play I intended to simply include a text note somewhere - you know a little asterisk or dagger pointing to a separate "Note: ...."

Rule 1.1 says :
"We have arranged these rules in sequence-of-play order. "
In the rule, the part about Aligning is 9.8, the part of Declaring War is 9.2.
This is important that the right order be followed by MWiF.

Ok. Then CWIF, and MWIF presently, is doing this wrong, since the phasing player can do them in either order.

Yes. I admit that I overlooked this in CWiF [:D]
It just jumped right at me when I saw your flowcharts.

[lomyrin]

The aircraft voluntary abort to the sea box might be placed on your chart page 3, air mission sequence, to the right of the

assign damage box.

It only applies to naval air fights though, and then leads to another search roll.

Lars

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

The aircraft voluntary abort to the sea box might be placed on your chart page 3, air mission sequence, to the right of the

assign damage box.

It only applies to naval air fights though, and then leads to another search roll.

Lars

I have redone all the flowcharts but was still unsure where to place this. I guess my understanding of the rule is still a little fuzzy. I have separated the 3 types of naval combats so perhaps it will be easier to decide on a location for voluntary abort to a sea area now?

1 of 7

[Shannon V. OKeets]

2 of 7

The first page changed the order of declaring war and aligning minors.

The only change on this page is correctly labeling the Remove Air Units box

[Shannon V. OKeets]

3 of 7

I fixed the anti-air subsection and added where surprise points can be used (naval air combat only).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

4 of 7

Not much change here. I added the second load transports box.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

5 of 7

A lot of changes to this page. The extra detail about surprise points and the separation of the 3 type of naval combat.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

6 of 7

No changes. Included only for completeness.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

7 of 7. Last in series.

The resoultion of land atacks gets its own subsection, which has more detail than before.

I still need to do the End of Turn details - perhaps another day.

[lomyrin]

With the separation of land air battles and sea air battles in the charts, the voluntary abort to sea area seems already resolved.
The new page 5 abort or continue for the air combat can automatically perform the abort to the sea box function so no additional box would be required.

On page 4, the TRS loading at sea is also subject to search, actually the seactrh does not take place until after the TRS has loaded a cargo.

Lars

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

With the separation of land air battles and sea air battles in the charts, the voluntary abort to sea area seems already resolved.
The new page 5 abort or continue for the air combat can automatically perform the abort to the sea box function so no additional box would be required.

On page 4, the TRS loading at sea is also subject to search, actually the seactrh does not take place until after the TRS has loaded a cargo.

Lars

Perhaps it would be better if I pulled the Intercept box out to the right and had arrows pointing to it from both the move and load at sea boxes?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
On page 4, the TRS loading at sea is also subject to search, actually the seactrh does not take place until after the TRS has loaded a cargo.
Lars

Perhaps it would be better if I pulled the Intercept box out to the right and had arrows pointing to it from both the move and load at sea boxes?

Why ?
Intercept is only triggered by naval move.
Search is already included in the Naval Combat subsection.
It is OK as is.
But you can put the Intercept section out to the right, it would be clearer.
But no arrow pointing from the "Load" box to the "Intecept" Box.

Let me make my point :

1.a) Ships Move.
1.b) They get intercepted or not (if their move led them into new Sea Area).
3.c) When the move is over (after interception and interception combat), they can load units from some shores.
2) When all this (Move + loading -- which is part of moving) is over, Naval combat may be declared.

No ship may embark units on shores without first performing a Naval move, even if that naval move is moving from Section 4 to Section 3 of the Sea Area.

And a Ship who moves is then subject to interception if he is entering a new Sea Area, or Subject to Naval Combat Declaration from the enemy, because he moved.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
On page 4, the TRS loading at sea is also subject to search, actually the seactrh does not take place until after the TRS has loaded a cargo.
Lars

Perhaps it would be better if I pulled the Intercept box out to the right and had arrows pointing to it from both the move and load at sea boxes?

Why ?
Intercept is only triggered by naval move.
Search is already included in the Naval Combat subsection.
It is OK as is.
But you can put the Intercept section out to the right, it would be clearer.
But no arrow pointing from the "Load" box to the "Intecept" Box.

Let me make my point :

1.a) Ships Move.
1.b) They get intercepted or not (if their move led them into new Sea Area).
3.c) When the move is over (after interception and interception combat), they can load units from some shores.
2) When all this (Move + loading -- which is part of moving) is over, Naval combat may be declared.

No ship may embark units on shores without first performing a Naval move, even if that naval move is moving from Section 4 to Section 3 of the Sea Area.

And a Ship who moves is then subject to interception if he is entering a new Sea Area, or Subject to Naval Combat Declaration from the enemy, because he moved.

The trick is to draw a diagram that makes all of that clear to someone who doesn't already know the process. Let me sleep on it.

[wodin]

This has been a great help in working out how the game plays.

Thanks

[lomyrin]

My understanding of the rules is that the TRS moves into a sea area where it can be searched for, and after that search, if it failed, if there was no search, or if it fought through successfully, the TRS can continue to another Sea area. In that sea area it stops and loads a unit from shore. When the game has progressed through whatever searches the active player wants to make in various sea areas, the inactive player can now search for the loaded TRS since that sea area received new units by the active player.

Alternatively the TRS could have just moved to a lower sea box in the same area it was already present in order to load a unit from shore.

If a TRS moves into a sea area where it can be intercepted, and then if not found continues into a port where it loads a unit and then again enters the same sea area, my understanding is that it can be intercept searched for again.


Lars

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
My understanding of the rules is that the TRS moves into a sea area where it can be searched for, and after that search, if it failed, if there was no search, or if it fought through successfully, the TRS can continue to another Sea area. In that sea area it stops and loads a unit from shore. When the game has progressed through whatever searches the active player wants to make in various sea areas, the inactive player can now search for the loaded TRS since that sea area received new units by the active player.

Unless the active player already initiated searches in the Sea Area where the TRS stopped.

Alternatively the TRS could have just moved to a lower sea box in the same area it was already present in order to load a unit from shore.

If a TRS moves into a sea area where it can be intercepted, and then if not found continues into a port where it loads a unit and then again enters the same sea area, my understanding is that it can be intercept searched for again.
Lars

I think that you got it all right. I think our possible disgressions came from that I may have wrongly understood what you were writing.
Except that I would have written "moves into a sea area where it can be intercepted, and after that intercept," instead of "moves into a sea area where it can be searched for, and after that search," in the first sentence.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

My understanding of the rules is that the TRS moves into a sea area where it can be searched for, and after that search, if it failed, if there was no search, or if it fought through successfully, the TRS can continue to another Sea area. In that sea area it stops and loads a unit from shore. When the game has progressed through whatever searches the active player wants to make in various sea areas, the inactive player can now search for the loaded TRS since that sea area received new units by the active player.

Alternatively the TRS could have just moved to a lower sea box in the same area it was already present in order to load a unit from shore.

If a TRS moves into a sea area where it can be intercepted, and then if not found continues into a port where it loads a unit and then again enters the same sea area, my understanding is that it can be intercept searched for again.


Lars

Thanks for the clarification. With Patrice's comment below, my previous understanding of the rule(s) was correct. Therefore I will leave the diagram as is, because:

1 - naval interception occurs during the naval movement phase only.
2 - naval search occurs in 3 places: if interception is attempted, during the phasing player's naval combat phase, and during the non-phasing player's naval combat phase.
3 - the third search opportunity is part of the naval combat diagram, and not part of the naval movement diagram.
4 - it is the third search opportunity that applies to naval units that have loaded units while at sea.

Having forum members review all these with a careful eye to detail and raise points where things aren't clear is extremely helpful to me. The goal is to communicate (accurately) with players who are new to the game. Therefore, mistakes are not permitted, and clarity of meaning is crucial.

[Froonp]

Thanks for the clarification. With Patrice's comment below, my previous understanding of the rule(s) was correct. Therefore I will leave the diagram as is, because:

1 - naval interception occurs during the naval movement phase only.

Yes.

2 - naval search occurs in 3 places: if interception is attempted, during the phasing player's naval combat phase, and during the non-phasing player's naval combat phase.

If you want to be precise, you should not say exactly this.
Naval Search (initiated by one side) per see only occurs in the 2 latest occurences that you listed.
The first occurence is an Interception, not a Naval Search, and even if you roll a dice, it is an interception dice, and even if its result is used as your search roll, this is not a search roll.
In Interceptions, the intercepting fleet is always included, regardless of its side's search roll.
However, this is nit picking, you got it broadly right.

Moreover, both the 2 latest searches cannot be done in the same Sea Area in the Same Impulse. If the Active side already initiated searches, the inactive side cannot initiate more searches.

3 - the third search opportunity is part of the naval combat diagram, and not part of the naval movement diagram.

Right.

4 - it is the third search opportunity that applies to naval units that have loaded units while at sea.

Wrong.
Naval units that have loaded units while at sea are subject to both the latest searches. Both the Active and the Inactive. The Active Player can Initiate searches in the Sea area where he just moved his TRS who loaded men & material.
If he doesn't, the inactive player has the opportunity to initate searches that may lead to naval combat.

The crutial thing to understand about loading things in ships is that : Ships load things when they end their naval movement.
The Naval Combats (both searches we talk about) happen after the naval movement phase, so all moving TRS have finished their moves and already loaded their things when time for searches comes.

I wonder if I do not make it muddier trying to explain it ?!?!