Nukes

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Telumar
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RE: Nukes

Post by Telumar »

ORIGINAL: shunwick

MarGol,

Berlin Crisis 61 is available from rugged defense but it is not usable for TOAW 3 only COW because it requires a modified exe. I don't know if it has ever been updated. The version at rugged defense was submitted for play test.

Best wishes,

Na, download it. Open the modified COW .exe with BioEd and select export. Save as Berlin Crisis 61.xml. Create a folder named Berlin Crisis 61 in your TOAWIII Graphics (or AltGraphics) directory, put the xml file into it. Rename the .xml file extension to .eqp. Now load the .sce into the TOAWIII editor and save it. Done.

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L`zard
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RE: Nukes

Post by L`zard »

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RyanCrierie
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RE: Nukes

Post by RyanCrierie »

I wonder how long this would last, though. The difficulty of producing the ultra-sophisticated weapons systems NATO was fielding by the 1980s may well have meant that, on a high attrition battlefield, they would very rapidly have to be replaced with older, more cheaply made items. This would wipe out NATO's technical superiority; and Russia has always been more capable of taking losses.

You got to remember that a tank knocked out in action isn't always a total loss; many Shermans went through four-five crews in WW2; and with the emphasis on crew survivability in the Abrams; I wouldn't be surprised if the pre-war experienced cadre of US Tankers lasts for quite a long time.

Plus, the Abrams is significantly easier to use and operate than the Patton; In tests, the people who showed the most improvement in "Tank skills" when using the Abrams were the lowest grade of recruits.
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RE: Nukes

Post by Silvanski »

I have the converted scenario/eqp ... PM me and I'll mail it
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golden delicious
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Trick37
True, we were still in the midst of our mobilization in 1945, but we had provided equipment, ammunition, aircraft and ships not only for us, but for Russia, the UK, Brazil, and a lot of the Allied forces. In addition to that, we had 16 million men in uniform by the end of the war in 1945. Had it gone on longer, who knows how many men in uniform we would've had.

This after five years- and it would have been another two before you could have brought all this to bear.
I wonder if Patton would've beaten Zhukov.........?

a) Patton and Zhukov commanded at different levels so there is no direct comparison. Likewise with most of the officers with which Patton is compared.
b) A Russian attack on the West in 1945 or 1946 would have resulted in an economic and logistical disaster for the Soviet Union because they were dependent on American imports of various essential supplies. For example the Russians (who did not trust radio communications) were unable to produce sufficiently high quality copper wire for their military telephone networks. They imported thousands of miles of copper wire from the United States.
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golden delicious
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

Interesting. If I'm not mistaken what you describe is pretty close to the NATO defensive doctrine at the time. US (and Belgian) Infantry (Mechanized) Divisions of the period were organized according to the "Pentomic" TO&E, in which the Divisions were divided into five "battle groups" of approximately reinforced battalion-stength. The thinking was that each "battle group" was powerful enough to hold ground, but not large enough that a concentrated nuclear attack on one would significantly diminish the Divisions' overall combat power.

Was this system in place by the time of your 1961 Berlin Crisis? I would think you'd want the OOB to reflect this structure.
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shunwick
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RE: Nukes

Post by shunwick »

ORIGINAL: Telumar
ORIGINAL: shunwick

MarGol,

Berlin Crisis 61 is available from rugged defense but it is not usable for TOAW 3 only COW because it requires a modified exe. I don't know if it has ever been updated. The version at rugged defense was submitted for play test.

Best wishes,

Na, download it. Open the modified COW .exe with BioEd and select export. Save as Berlin Crisis 61.xml. Create a folder named Berlin Crisis 61 in your TOAWIII Graphics (or AltGraphics) directory, put the xml file into it. Rename the .xml file extension to .eqp. Now load the .sce into the TOAWIII editor and save it. Done.


That's brilliant! Thank you.

Best wishes,
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RE: Nukes

Post by Trick37_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Trick37
True, we were still in the midst of our mobilization in 1945, but we had provided equipment, ammunition, aircraft and ships not only for us, but for Russia, the UK, Brazil, and a lot of the Allied forces. In addition to that, we had 16 million men in uniform by the end of the war in 1945. Had it gone on longer, who knows how many men in uniform we would've had.

This after five years- and it would have been another two before you could have brought all this to bear.

Considering that we only had an army of 122,000 at the beginning of 1941, I'd say it was a great fete. In addition, I don't think our draft was at its maximum....or was it?

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Trick37
I wonder if Patton would've beaten Zhukov.........?

a) Patton and Zhukov commanded at different levels so there is no direct comparison. Likewise with most of the officers with which Patton is compared.
b) A Russian attack on the West in 1945 or 1946 would have resulted in an economic and logistical disaster for the Soviet Union because they were dependent on American imports of various essential supplies. For example the Russians (who did not trust radio communications) were unable to produce sufficiently high quality copper wire for their military telephone networks. They imported thousands of miles of copper wire from the United States.

a) True, they did, but the question's been there.....and was made into a scenario. [;)]
b) Then they would've needed to make it a quick victory, which wouldn't have been possible, considering our forces in Europe back then.
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RE: Nukes

Post by sstevens06 »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

Interesting. If I'm not mistaken what you describe is pretty close to the NATO defensive doctrine at the time. US (and Belgian) Infantry (Mechanized) Divisions of the period were organized according to the "Pentomic" TO&E, in which the Divisions were divided into five "battle groups" of approximately reinforced battalion-stength. The thinking was that each "battle group" was powerful enough to hold ground, but not large enough that a concentrated nuclear attack on one would significantly diminish the Divisions' overall combat power.

Was this system in place by the time of your 1961 Berlin Crisis? I would think you'd want the OOB to reflect this structure.


Yes it was, and the US OOB in Berlin Crisis 1961 definitely reflects this structure. Even the US Airborne Divisions (82nd and 101st) were organized as "Pentomic" Divisions.

I believe the US Infantry and Mechanized Infantry Divisions adopted the "ROAD" structure (10 conventional battalions organized into 3 Brigades) around 1963. A good source of information on this topic is:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Doughty/doughty.asp#THREE
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sstevens06
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RE: Nukes

Post by sstevens06 »

ORIGINAL: Telumar
ORIGINAL: shunwick

MarGol,

Berlin Crisis 61 is available from rugged defense but it is not usable for TOAW 3 only COW because it requires a modified exe. I don't know if it has ever been updated. The version at rugged defense was submitted for play test.

Best wishes,

Na, download it. Open the modified COW .exe with BioEd and select export. Save as Berlin Crisis 61.xml. Create a folder named Berlin Crisis 61 in your TOAWIII Graphics (or AltGraphics) directory, put the xml file into it. Rename the .xml file extension to .eqp. Now load the .sce into the TOAWIII editor and save it. Done.



Please note that the "BioEdited" nuclear attack values for certain equipment in the modified ACoW .exe are INCORRECT for TOAW III. Due to a significant flaw in the way nuclear weapon effects were modeled in ACoW, which has since been corrected by Ralph in TOAW III, the nuclear attack values of virtually every nuclear-capable piece of equipment in this scenario were scaled down. The table below indicates the relationship between the original (correct for TOAW III) and the modified nuclear attack values:


Yield Original CE Modified CE Divisor
=== ======= ======= ====
4MT 1,000,000 50,000 20
3.8MT 950,000 50,000 19
1.9MT 475,000 39,583 12
1MT 250,000 27,778 9
500kT 125,000 20,833 6
250kT 62,500 13,889 4.5
125kT 31,250 10,417 3
42kT 10,500 7,000 1.5
21kT 5,250 5,250 1


A full list of equipment with their original and modified nuclear attack values (as well as a legible version of the above table) can be found in the scenario briefing document. To achieve the correct nuclear weapon effects in TOAW III all of these pieces of equipment must be BioEdited to change their nuclear attack values back to their original, unmodified values. (Unfortunately due the pressures of work I will not be able to get to this for at least the next few months.)
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RE: Nukes

Post by Trick37_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

Interesting. If I'm not mistaken what you describe is pretty close to the NATO defensive doctrine at the time. US (and Belgian) Infantry (Mechanized) Divisions of the period were organized according to the "Pentomic" TO&E, in which the Divisions were divided into five "battle groups" of approximately reinforced battalion-stength. The thinking was that each "battle group" was powerful enough to hold ground, but not large enough that a concentrated nuclear attack on one would significantly diminish the Divisions' overall combat power.

Was this system in place by the time of your 1961 Berlin Crisis? I would think you'd want the OOB to reflect this structure.


Yes it was, and the US OOB in Berlin Crisis 1961 definitely reflects this structure. Even the US Airborne Divisions (82nd and 101st) were organized as "Pentomic" Divisions.

I believe the US Infantry and Mechanized Infantry Divisions adopted the "ROAD" structure (10 conventional battalions organized into 3 Brigades) around 1963. A good source of information on this topic is:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Doughty/doughty.asp#THREE

This is correct. In 1963 the army did change, and it changed again in the 1980s, in which not only were there three maneuver brigades, who would pull in extra divisional assets (engineer, artillery, signal, MP, etc) to form "Brigade Combat Teams (BCTs). Inwartime these extra assets would fall under the combat brigades during wartime, but peacetime would leave these extra assets under the command of their respective commanders (i.e. Engineer Brigade, Division Artillery brigade, Signal Battalion, MI battalion, ADA battalion, MP company).

Around 2001 the army went to the Force XXI structure, and in the past couple of years the army has changed once again to the Modular Force structure. Modular Force basically revamps army divisions into actual BCTs where the extra units that it would receive in combat are assigned in peacetime, thus removing the need for external divisional assets in other units (engineer, artillery, etc). In addition, the divisions would now incorporate 4 BCTs, and the army would transition from a "heavy" structure to a "lighter, mor mobile" one. (I wholeheartedly disagree with this concept, as it "lightens" the Army, and makes it more like the Marines....we already have a force like that, and we don't need another one.) Also, full divisions won't normally deploy together any more. BCTs would deploy, based on what the commander in the field would need, and these units would come under a division HQ that would deploy, thus commanding those separate BCTs from other divisions. (One can se this with the force structures in Iraq and Afghanistan.)

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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Trick37

Considering that we only had an army of 122,000 at the beginning of 1941, I'd say it was a great fete.

Yeah- but this is just it. Even during the Cold War yours was not a militarised society. Everyone needs to start thinking differently before you can crank things up for a full mobilisation. Not so with Russia.
b) Then they would've needed to make it a quick victory, which wouldn't have been possible, considering our forces in Europe back then.

Back when? The US demobilised in Europe very rapidly. Look at the state of the US Army in the opening stages of the Korean War: Russia had a shot at overrunning Western Europe from 1946-9. There would have been very little that could have been done to stop them, but it would have caused a complete internal collapse for Russia. You can't just go from one exhausting total war to another. There has to be a period of recovery.
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golden delicious
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Trick37

In addition, the divisions would now incorporate 4 BCTs, and the army would transition from a "heavy" structure to a "lighter, mor mobile" one. (I wholeheartedly disagree with this concept, as it "lightens" the Army, and makes it more like the Marines....we already have a force like that, and we don't need another one.)

Well, what conflict scenarios do you envision which would require a heavy force and at the same time give you the time needed to deploy it?

On the one hand, it's not advisable to give up on the idea of being able to find a major conventional war just so you can do more of the sort of thing that's needed in Afghanistan etc. On the other, it is necessary to decide what sort of force will actually be needed in the sort of conventional war which is likely to occur. I'm betting it won't involve 2,000 M1s.
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RE: Nukes

Post by Trick37_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Trick37

Considering that we only had an army of 122,000 at the beginning of 1941, I'd say it was a great fete.

Yeah- but this is just it. Even during the Cold War yours was not a militarised society. Everyone needs to start thinking differently before you can crank things up for a full mobilisation. Not so with Russia.

True, we weren't, but that's because of the differences in governments and societies of the two countries. Also, one has to consider that the Soviets were afraid of another invasion of their homeland, and they weren't going to be caught off guard again. That's the main reason (as I see it) why they kept their army so big.
ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Trick37b) Then they would've needed to make it a quick victory, which wouldn't have been possible, considering our forces in Europe back then.

Back when? The US demobilised in Europe very rapidly. Look at the state of the US Army in the opening stages of the Korean War: Russia had a shot at overrunning Western Europe from 1946-9. There would have been very little that could have been done to stop them, but it would have caused a complete internal collapse for Russia. You can't just go from one exhausting total war to another. There has to be a period of recovery.

True, but if it were up to Patton, our forces wouldn't have been drawn down. Instead, I'm sure he would've liked to have kept the forces in Germany in preparation for the attack from Russia that he was sure was going to come. He argued for that (among other things), and that's what cost him his command and career.
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RE: Nukes

Post by Trick37_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Trick37

In addition, the divisions would now incorporate 4 BCTs, and the army would transition from a "heavy" structure to a "lighter, mor mobile" one. (I wholeheartedly disagree with this concept, as it "lightens" the Army, and makes it more like the Marines....we already have a force like that, and we don't need another one.)

Well, what conflict scenarios do you envision which would require a heavy force and at the same time give you the time needed to deploy it?

There's no doubt in my mind that we're going to have to go against China in the future. There's a new Cold War brewing, and the Chinese are the new "enemy." We'll not only need a large force, but armor.....and lots of it.

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
On the one hand, it's not advisable to give up on the idea of being able to find a major conventional war just so you can do more of the sort of thing that's needed in Afghanistan etc. On the other, it is necessary to decide what sort of force will actually be needed in the sort of conventional war which is likely to occur.

True on both accounts. This is why I don't believe that we should draw down our forces from the "heavy" model that we have to a "more lighter, faster and mor deployable" type of force. It's possible to retain the armor and heavy divisions, and to also train them on non-conventional combat, such as we're seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Keep the army "heavy," and build up the Marines if you want a force like theirs (which is what they're looking at).
ORIGINAL: golden deliciousI'm betting it won't involve 2,000 M1s.

I'd prefer to be prepared for it. To not be prepared is asking for disaster in a fight against China (or even Russia, if she keep going the way she is now).
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RE: Nukes

Post by sstevens06 »

ORIGINAL: Trick37

...

Keep the army "heavy"
...


I agree. Also stop de-comissioning nuclear weapons & delivery systems without replacing them.
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RE: Nukes

Post by Trick37_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: sstevens06
ORIGINAL: Trick37

...

Keep the army "heavy"
...


I agree. Also stop de-comissioning nuclear weapons & delivery systems without replacing them.

Amen to that, brother.

We need our navy to be that 600-ship navy that we had under Reagan. Man, I loved it when those Ohio class battleships came back into service, and I hated it when they left again. The firepower on them was, and is, awesome. I know it took a lot to run them, but maybe building new, nuclear powered, ones would've been an answer..... (The navy is working on a concept ship, but I can't discuss that.)
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Trick37

True, we weren't, but that's because of the differences in governments and societies of the two countries. Also, one has to consider that the Soviets were afraid of another invasion of their homeland, and they weren't going to be caught off guard again. That's the main reason (as I see it) why they kept their army so big.

Yeah. Obviously, the result proved that the Western course was the right one to take.
True, but if it were up to Patton, our forces wouldn't have been drawn down. Instead, I'm sure he would've liked to have kept the forces in Germany in preparation for the attack from Russia that he was sure was going to come. He argued for that (among other things), and that's what cost him his command and career.

It didn't really have time to do that. He may have been kicked upstairs after the end of the war in Europe, but this had happened before, after the slapping incident. I suspect that, had he lived, Patton would have commanded in the field in Korea.
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golden delicious
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Trick37
There's no doubt in my mind that we're going to have to go against China in the future. There's a new Cold War brewing, and the Chinese are the new "enemy." We'll not only need a large force, but armor.....and lots of it.

China's population is going to plummet in the next forty years, due to the one child policy. This will kill their economic growth and lead to huge social tensions.

If you were to go to war with China, it would be a huge mistake to confront them in Asia with a land force. They are pretty much hemmed in by geography as it stands; it would be much easier to reduce them with naval and economic power, forcing them to internal collapse. Any land force would be annihilated by their vast defensive strength.

Additionally, any aggression on the part of a power like China or Russia would lead to a large coalition forming against them, sufficient to close off their economy and again cause internal collapse. Aggression against them is not really a terribly good idea. What would you have to gain?
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Trick37

We need our navy to be that 600-ship navy that we had under Reagan. Man, I loved it when those Ohio class battleships came back into service, and I hated it when they left again. The firepower on them was, and is, awesome.

It's a hell of a lot of eggs in one basket. The modern battlefield (or whatever you call the naval equivalent) is just too heavy on attrition to place such large assets in close proximity to the enemy (modern carriers aim to keep the enemy at 200 miles distant). One well-placed cruise missile and you have more losses than three years in Iraq.
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