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[pauk]

ORIGINAL: treespider

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Wonder if that's what Nagumo said?

Fix the naval combat model in the AE. That is what he said.

[cyberwop36]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: cyberwop36

Kates at 17,000 ft.? I thought TB won't carry torps. at that alt.

Is that what you meant to do? I would think you'd want to use the kates in a "co-ordinated" attack."

Altitude has nothing to do with it. It's range.

This is correct. I typically send in my Kates at max altitude. P-40s cant intercept them at max altitude so all you have to worry about is the AA fire on the run in. P-40s have a very low ceiling.

I'll be damned. 3 years playing and still learned something new. But why didn't any kates fly?

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I´ve nearly never bombers on KB or Allied CV TFs on search as soon as there are enough float planes (means 30+) and never had it happen that my strikes didn´t take off. Doubt that it matters if the enemy is spotted by an Alf or a Kate. Detection level of the enemy goes up and that´s the most important thing.

The problem is the most the detection level can go up is 1 per search plane that spots a given task force. And the way sightings occur, only 1 plane max per group/squadron can spot a task force. So it is imperative to get as many different groups to spot the task force as possible to get high detection levels.

So a 30 plane search group or a 2 plane search group doesn’t make a difference in how high the detection level goes up when it spots it, because only 1 plane actually gets the sighting. It only makes it easier to spot task forces if you have more planes in the search group.

The thing that increases detection levels the most is the number of squadrons launching a strike from the enemy task force. Most allied CVs only have 3 squadrons early on, so that is 3 + whatever you get from searches. To get this to go up to 10, you need at least 7 separate squadrons to locate the task force.

And even if you do manage to achieve the magical 10, there is still a small chance your planes launch but fail to find the target. So it is imperative to get your detection levels up as high as possible.

KB usually gives the allies an automatic 10 because most of the CVs operate in a single large task force. So if KB launches a strike with at least 9 squadrons involved, it’s automatically a 10 for the allies (1 for the search plane that spots the task force), that’s why it is usually Japan that has the weird looking strike results. Because of cooperation penalties, the allies usually only have single CV task forces that follow each other around.

Like I said, if this was all part of the combat reports, there wouldn’t be so much confusion about lost strikes. Right now the only way to confirm a launch is to note the fatigue levels of the pilots. And there is no way to confirm why a launched strike failed to attack, it’s purely speculative guessing right now.

Given that he only had one squadron per task force searching, and it appears the allies had 2 CVs in the task force, I bet he only had a 7 detection level on the allied fleet. Which made it much easier for his pilots to fail to locate the target, especially given the bad weather in the area. I can’t find it in the rues, but my guess is weather adversely effects the final detection level as well.

That’s why I pray AE makes detailed strike explanations part of the reports text.

Jim

[eloso]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I´ve nearly never bombers on KB or Allied CV TFs on search as soon as there are enough float planes (means 30+) and never had it happen that my strikes didn´t take off. Doubt that it matters if the enemy is spotted by an Alf or a Kate. Detection level of the enemy goes up and that´s the most important thing.

The problem is the most the detection level can go up is 1 per search plane that spots a given task force. And the way sightings occur, only 1 plane max per group/squadron can spot a task force. So it is imperative to get as many different groups to spot the task force as possible to get high detection levels.

So a 30 plane search group or a 2 plane search group doesn’t make a difference in how high the detection level goes up when it spots it, because only 1 plane actually gets the sighting. It only makes it easier to spot task forces if you have more planes in the search group.

The thing that increases detection levels the most is the number of squadrons launching a strike from the enemy task force. Most allied CVs only have 3 squadrons early on, so that is 3 + whatever you get from searches. To get this to go up to 10, you need at least 7 separate squadrons to locate the task force.

And even if you do manage to achieve the magical 10, there is still a small chance your planes launch but fail to find the target. So it is imperative to get your detection levels up as high as possible.

KB usually gives the allies an automatic 10 because most of the CVs operate in a single large task force. So if KB launches a strike with at least 9 squadrons involved, it’s automatically a 10 for the allies (1 for the search plane that spots the task force), that’s why it is usually Japan that has the weird looking strike results. Because of cooperation penalties, the allies usually only have single CV task forces that follow each other around.

Like I said, if this was all part of the combat reports, there wouldn’t be so much confusion about lost strikes. Right now the only way to confirm a launch is to note the fatigue levels of the pilots. And there is no way to confirm why a launched strike failed to attack, it’s purely speculative guessing right now.

Given that he only had one squadron per task force searching, and it appears the allies had 2 CVs in the task force, I bet he only had a 7 detection level on the allied fleet. Which made it much easier for his pilots to fail to locate the target, especially given the bad weather in the area. I can’t find it in the rues, but my guess is weather adversely effects the final detection level as well.

That’s why I pray AE makes detailed strike explanations part of the reports text.

Jim

This is all good information but Japan already indicated that there was a storm cloud over his CV taskforces during the replay when the allied strike occurred.

[Yamato hugger]

A cloud over a TF or a base doesnt mean that nothing is moving in or out. Means you have overcast or worse cloud cover. Stikes by very experienced groups can still occur.

Why didnt the Kates fly? Dont know. Ask the squadron commanders. Low aggression maybe? Low experience? Hard to say with the data posted thus far.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
Why didnt the Kates fly? Dont know. Ask the squadron commanders. Low aggression maybe? Low experience? Hard to say with the data posted thus far.

I think they did fly and got lost. But the only way to tell if that is the case, would to be to list the fatigue levels of those squadrons.

Jim

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

A cloud over a TF or a base doesnt mean that nothing is moving in or out. Means you have overcast or worse cloud cover. Stikes by very experienced groups can still occur.

Why didnt the Kates fly? Dont know. Ask the squadron commanders. Low aggression maybe? Low experience? Hard to say with the data posted thus far.

In years of playing I have never seen a daylight strike going out of a base (or carriers) when there is a cloud over the hex. Never. Seen this with night attacks though, always thinking this is a bug then. Perhaps the bug is with the daylight strike perhaps. Or the bug is the incoming strike. Who knows.

[Yamato hugger]

I see it all the time. Especially high experience recon planes.

[Local Yokel]

As I read it, Japan merely stated that his CV TF's were operating in a thunderstorm/blizzard weather quadrant, not that they were located within 'no-fly' hexes when attacked. Or did I miss something? The stats given for his carrier aircrew suggest that his strikes didn't fail for want of quality.

Relevant extracts from the Manual:

"Offensive Missions can be aborted after all preparations have been made, but prior to take-off , due to bad weather over the air unit’s base or over the intended target. Hexes affected by bad weather blocks any air units from launching an airstrike from the hex, and it blocks any target in the hex from being attacked.

A line of bad weather will not stop an airstrike flying through the hex from a good weather hex to a good weather hex. A no-fly symbol (a cloud) will appear on the tactical map if the Show Clouds preference option is selected." (Section 7.2.2.13)

"Aircraft can fail to find their Targets due to bad weather en route to or over their target, or due to the inability of the planes to locate their Target before they are forced to return to base due to fuel constraints."

"The chance of missing the target depends on many factors:

...

�� In each airstrike, one air group is designated as the lead group for that strike. If the lead air group fails to find the Target, all air groups in the airstrike will fail to locate the Target. A message will be shown if a group fails to find a Target after takeoff." (Section 7.2.2.14)

That last item could have made a crucial difference - the hikotaicho lost his way, and a major strike never connected.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

I see it all the time. Especially high experience recon planes.

Yes, recon planes, float planes do their searches. But we are talking about strike planes. Never seen daylight strikes when a cloud is over a base. Must be my speacial WITP edition again.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel

Relevant extracts from the Manual:

"Offensive Missions can be aborted after all preparations have been made, but prior to take-off , due to bad weather over the air unit’s base or over the intended target. Hexes affected by bad weather blocks any air units from launching an airstrike from the hex, and it blocks any target in the hex from being attacked.

First part of the bold sentence works in my games 100% of the time with daylight strikes, the second part doesn´t work 100% of the time in my games. Couple of thousand turns can´t make me sure though.

[Yamato hugger]

Dont go by the manual. When in doubt assume the manual is WRONG.

[Japan]

NO Other PLanes Flew then the ones you can see in the Report.
 
NO Planes "Failed to Locate Target" All who Departed Located it, and the ONLY ones Departing was the CAP and the Tiny Strike.
 
ALL Commanders was Set up Correctly  (All had  HIGH:  Agression, ALL had high Air Skill, ALL had high Ledership and Fair/High Inspiration Skill, and ALL the Air Groups was Experienced, The TF Commanders as well as the Commanders of EACH Individual Ship in the TF was "the correct man for the job")
 
Regarding the Bombing Altitude, I aim for the Whole Strike to Fly at or arround 16-17000 Feet, this as the Dive Bombers should Dive from not below 15000 (So I can get 9 in a row) and the Kates are positioned in the same level, this gives them All Consentrated Escort as all fly in same level (more or less).
 
Also, when having 27 ALF from a CS + 10-15 ALF from Ships, that IRL should be more then Pleanty to do Navel Search for a Carrier Task Force.
 
 

[eloso]

ORIGINAL: Japan

Also, when having 27 ALF from a CS + 10-15 ALF from Ships, that IRL should be more then Pleanty to do Navel Search for a Carrier Task Force.

I know this game is pretty immersive and can suck one into it but it isn't reality. I can't speak on behalf of how the CS was used IRL but I can speak on how the game works. Are you sure you are using these units in their designed role?

In order to get a good naval strike in you have to spot it with your bombers. It will almost guarantees that the squadron launches every time as long as all of the above criteria were met (morale, fatigue, clear weather, etc.). 20% of each squadron set to search doesn't diminish the effect of the strike, plus it bumps up the detection level as Jim Burns noted which is critical for success.

[Japan]

Well the CS was Designed to do this job to allow all Bommbers to be part of an attack.
This semes poorly simulated in this game.