This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!
Tinian never had more than 12 squadrons located on the entire island at one time.
Still something missing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Field_%28Tinian%29. 265 hardstands were built in North field alone. So with an average squadron size of 10 planes there are more than 2 hardstands for each bomber? Even if we go with the 12 squadrons at 10 planes each that leaves a theoretical capacity of 120 bombers. At that is at North field alone. Add to that West field and Tinian should have been able to comfortably support 100 bomber raids day after day, providing the aircraft are available. Clearly, the game does not allow that.
The Wikipedia article showing organizations and bases for USAAF in the Central Pacific is accuarte to the extent that I researched. I looked through a number of other documents to verify the information.
I was mistaken the dates and numbers. Tinian had double the number of squadrons that I stated by the end. It was 24 Squadrons in 8 groups, plus the 509th composite group using the two main airfields. (definately overstacked...)
I don't know as I have not been able to find all of the details. It is probably a safe assumption that a significant number of hardstands were used for the regular flow of replacement aircraft and maintenance floats. Some of the squadrons had more than 10 planes. Also, a couple of accounts talked about when a mishap would happen they would have to move airplanes to the other side of the field. You can probably assume that not all of the hard stands were occupied at any one time.
I am in agreement that the real capacity of the Marianas bases was probably a little higher than
I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!
Takes a bit of digging but it lists all overseas losses, where there is an accident report - hence an 'op loss'.
Dang, there is a guy who took out 8 B-29's in a single takeoff accident in May 45. Point taken about them being packed close together.
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
Takes a bit of digging but it lists all overseas losses, where there is an accident report - hence an 'op loss'.
Thanks! Great reference. The two biggest B-29 days flying out of the Marianas were August 1, 1945 (784 planes) and August 14, 1945 (741 planes). What is really interesting is that there is not a B-29 single crash report for either of these days. Two aircraft were lost on North Field in a taxi accident (taxiing aircraft hit parked aircraft) on August 2, 1945. That was probably on the return from the big raid.
I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!
hanks! Great reference. The two biggest B-29 days flying out of the Marianas were August 1, 1945 (784 planes) and August 14, 1945 (741 planes). What is really interesting is that there is not a B-29 single crash report for either of these days. Two aircraft were lost on North Field in a taxi accident (taxiing aircraft hit parked aircraft) on August 2, 1945. That was probably on the return from the big raid.
What is scary is how many operational losses there were. Not for the losses but for the seemingly violent nature of them. Bad enough you had to fly thousands of miles to be shot at but not a week seems to have gone by without a seemly fatal accident at each and every airfield.
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
ORIGINAL: Gunner98
...given the size of the Marianas bases and the same 250 day time line - can you fly the same number of sorties (or more, or less) than historic? I agree that both Tinian and Guam are undersized based on historic fact BUT - if they were of historic size, would it unbalance or skew the end game?
For me those are the issues as well. How do the long term sortie rates (under optimum arrangements) manageable in the game compare to the Real Life rates?
Andrew
Information about my WitP map, and CHS, can be found on my WitP website
Seems ok to me thats with lvl 7 AF's and air HQ present.
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 01, 45
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Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 144
B-29-25 Superfort x 169
B-29B Superfort x 72
No Allied losses
Heavy Industry hits 120
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 11
B-29B Superfort x 11
Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Osaka/Kyoto , at 109,59
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Nagasaki/Sasebo , at 102,58
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 9
B-29-25 Superfort x 39
B-29B Superfort x 43
No Allied losses
Naval Shipyard hits 32
Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Nagasaki/Sasebo , at 102,58
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Nagasaki/Sasebo , at 102,58
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Nagasaki/Sasebo , at 102,58
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6
No Allied losses
Naval Shipyard hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Tinian was a huge facility and the only thing the USAAF neglected was base housing as the B-29 crews lived in tents. Not to allow a huge concentration of B-29s in the Marianas to operate as they did in reality is to take the teeth out of the USAAF bombing campaign against Japan. So, to me, the question is why not fix this?
Fix what ? I am able to lauch 450 plane sorties every three days by just having HQ's there - what problem are we tryiong to solve a perception that Tinian should be a nine ?
The raids from the Marianas were coordinated, planned and executed properly. Nothing was done on a 'shoestring'. It housed a numbered air force, headed up by possibly the best architect strategic bombing that the US ever produced (Spaatz fans might disagree). The fact that crews flew once in three days probably had a lot to do with crew fatigue, maintenance and planning cycles (plan, bomb, BDA, plan etc) in the same way as it still does today.
No one is saying a shoe string here a size 7 base is a very major base. The planning is not really relevant , you can have great planning from a size 1 field. If you had 16 runways from 5+ fields each could form up formations in much smaller times and coordinate them better , you can also receive the planes better with less operational losses from damaged units though compared to the raids on Germany that was less of an issue. The fact your on an island with limited real estate limits what you can do.
The designer has mentioned in many threads MANY historical operations were done from bases which operated above there IDEAL levels that does not mean they operated poorly just not ideally.
ORIGINAL: Gunner98
...given the size of the Marianas bases and the same 250 day time line - can you fly the same number of sorties (or more, or less) than historic? I agree that both Tinian and Guam are undersized based on historic fact BUT - if they were of historic size, would it unbalance or skew the end game?
For me those are the issues as well. How do the long term sortie rates (under optimum arrangements) manageable in the game compare to the Real Life rates?
Andrew
If your not getting damaged ( which B29s prob wont) you can operate daily until fatigue and morale fall too much.
Note the parking accidents ( and obviously the care they need on taxing) is IMHO a perfect example of an overstaqcked base. Not that it matters as you can simply add a HQ there and get effective rating of 9.
Fix what ? I am able to lauch 450 plane sorties every three days by just having HQ's there - what problem are we tryiong to solve a perception that Tinian should be a nine ?
Sorry do not understand the issue
Through all of the investigation that I did for this thread and Andy Mac's combat results, I have become convinced that the game designers did a good job of selecting base sizes for Tinian and Saipan. Looking at the raid sizes that Andy got flyng out of Tinian and Saipan, it seems evident that the Marianas bases for the game are quite capable of producing near historical results.
I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!
Fix what ? I am able to lauch 450 plane sorties every three days by just having HQ's there - what problem are we tryiong to solve a perception that Tinian should be a nine ?
Sorry do not understand the issue
when I see the raids you´ve posted I don´t see a problem either. Looks perfectly fine to me and this is not what other people have "said". Now you´ve posted an actual combat report that pretty much convinces me it does just fine.
10.000 supplies for one such raid sounds nice too, will really take an effort to supply the Superforts. [:D]
It just seems to me that Tinian is a least a 7 to start. Again, it was the largest airfield in the world in 1945. To have it as a level 4 seems inaccurate. It is hard to make the case for any other airfiled or base to be larger. So to have Port Morseby as a 9 and Tinian as a 4 seems incorrect. Morseby never support raids of the magnitude that were launched out of Tinian. at lease 6 8,000 foot runways with 11 miles of taxiways and 250+ dedicated hardstands to service each bomber. support facilitied to handle these massive beasts. Armours, supplies, radar, etc....What is being implied is that an 8,000 foot surfaced runway is not worth 1 base point. there were at least 6 of them plus a few smaller runways.
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
Tinian is just 101 km2 small island. That is under 5 % of one hex. Tinian had something like 6 runways, one hex can have hundreds. It's not about size of the one airfield, it's about how many airfields there can be. I think max 7 is enough. No problems, like Andy Mac proved.
Port Moresby had something like 6 or 7 airfields. It was also the main "theather combat training" center, forward maintenance, R&R center and dont know what else. Surely there was more space than on Saipan/Tinian/Guam.
Port Moresby had something like 6 or 7 airfields. It was also the main "theather combat training" center, forward maintenance, R&R center and don't know what else. Surely there was more space than on Saipan/Tinian/Guam.
more space perhaps, but I am not sure it had the ability to launch more aircraft for sustained operations. In 1943 Port Morseby was the largest airfield in the world. It was eclipsed by, you guessed it, Tinian in 1945. I am using wikipedia as source which might no be entirely accurate, but to have Tinian at less than half the size of Port Morseby does not seem correct.
Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly
