Price

[Gregor_SSG]

Please don't blame Eric or Matrix for the confusion about the discount for owners of the original ATD. It was our intention to do this, and when I made those comments it was my understanding that it would be possible. It turns out not to be the case, simply because the original ATD was released a long time ago, and Matrix' systems were simply not as advanced as they are now.

The blame lies with me for making a promise before I was 100% certain that I could deliver, and I apologise for the raised expectations and confusion caused. We will redress the issue with the release of our next product, though in the spirit of lessons learned from today's problems I'm not going to be more specific than that.

On the subject of value though, the discount was only ever intended to be small. I find that, if I do it properly, a turn of ATD can take at least 30 minutes, often more (playing a good player, maybe an hour). The scenario is huge and the consequences of a single decision, especially for the Russians, can be catastrophic, so the game demands concentration. At the current price it is still some of the best value for money for an entertainment dollar that you are going to find anywhere in the world.

Gregor

[parusski]

Erik, I just spent 10 minutes composing, posting and editing(read deleting) a rant about the price. But, it's gone.

Everyone just calm down. If you do not want to pay forty bucks, then don't. But please don't whine when quality games(not Democracy though)stop appearing. In 10 years on this forum, through 8 years of buying 42 games from Matrix I have never complained about anything that I can recall. I even tossed in my cash for WITP, even though that game did not then, does not now and NEVER will interest me. I paid for it to support one of the few, few companies I really admire. And one of the few companies that actually has my loyalty. Several of those 42 games I have purchased ended up off my pc and on my shelf, but those that did not-WOW.

Just look at SPWAW, I have lost track of exactly how long since Matrix acquired and started supporting that game. SPWAW was the first pc wargame my two sons played with me back in 2000(Eric was 12, Evan was 11). They still play that game and they are in college. You do not need an inelegant lecture from me. Just a reminder. Matrix is not about giving us free, or what an individual customer thinks of as inexpensive, games.

I too wish the price a little lower. But I wish some people had never gotten elected El presidente, but it ain't changing.

As a certain long winded politician said yesterday, "I hope I answered your question".
Yes, I know there was no question.

I AM BUYING THE GAME.

[planetbrain]

Well, I had it firmly in mind to get this expansion, but because of what I see to be a steep price I'm not so sure!
My first reaction on seeing the price was definitely one of disappointment.

[Hexagon]

To expansive for me, is an add-on, i expect a 15 euros price in the worst situation but 30 euros... i can buy better things by this price (even wait for a 30% discount isnt an option for me) you loss one buyer.

PD: EU III complete 13 euros, Hail to throne 20, EU Rome Gold 9 euros... and can continue [:D]

[modrow]

Gregor_SSG, Erik,

I just want to add a few comments:

I) I just bought in spite of the pricing. Reasons, ordered by declining relevance:

a) I want to keep Matrix in business, they provide good games for a niche market and I really can't buy any of those space games to do so... not my genre, sorry. Actually, my main motivation here is that I want Matrix to be around long enough to provide WitP III in time for my retirement some 25 years from now [:D]. I calculated that some of my current AE PBEMs are likely to end by that point of time.

b) I want to keep SSG in business. They have been providing nice war games, and there are not many quality providers in this genre.

c) ATD was the best game/scenario of the entire series. I played it more than any of its successors including Kharkov, so it may be interesting. (Frankly, though, it is not likely I will play it much. I even deinstalled Kharkov ever since AE is out, because that eats all my playing time).

II) The problem with the pricing of this product (apart from the communication disaster) is that it forces you to own Kharkov in order to run ATD, so you have paid for the new engine, while reusing part of the work done for ATD (actually, without having looked at the product I cannot say to how big an extent), which owners of the old expansion clearly have paid for. So yes, clearly if you own the old expansion you are made to repay for parts of what you have paid for. There was a similar problem with WitP AE, and I think the decision made there was the correct way to proceed. For future releases, please stick to that approach (i.e. standalone with rebate for owners of the original product, which in this case would be Kharkov, for which none of the technical problems recited exists).

III) (A bit tongue in cheek in order to finish this with a light note and, of course, promoting my favourite horse in the Matrix stable - sorry Gregor, I hope you understand Erik [;)])

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG
The scenario is huge and the consequences of a single decision, especially for the Russians, can be catastrophic, so the game demands concentration. At the current price it is still some of the best value for money for an entertainment dollar that you are going to find anywhere in the world.

If this is what you are after, the best you can buy for your money is AE. Go, get it now (or after your next paycheck) !!!

Hartwig

[modrow]

Parusski,

ORIGINAL: parusski

Erik, I just spent 10 minutes composing, posting and editing(read deleting) a rant about the price. But, it's gone.

Everyone just calm down. If you do not want to pay forty bucks, then don't. But please don't whine when quality games(not Democracy though)stop appearing. In 10 years on this forum, through 8 years of buying 42 games from Matrix I have never complained about anything that I can recall. I even tossed in my cash for WITP, even though that game did not then, does not now and NEVER will interest me. I paid for it to support one of the few, few companies I really admire. And one of the few companies that actually has my loyalty. Several of those 42 games I have purchased ended up off my pc and on my shelf, but those that did not-WOW.

Just look at SPWAW, I have lost track of exactly how long since Matrix acquired and started supporting that game. SPWAW was the first pc wargame my two sons played with me back in 2000(Eric was 12, Evan was 11). They still play that game and they are in college. You do not need an inelegant lecture from me. Just a reminder. Matrix is not about giving us free, or what an individual customer thinks of as inexpensive, games.

I too wish the price a little lower. But I wish some people had never gotten elected El presidente, but it ain't changing.

As a certain long winded politician said yesterday, "I hope I answered your question".
Yes, I know there was no question.

I AM BUYING THE GAME.

excellent post, same set of mind as here apart from the assessment of WitP [8D].

Hartwig

[MrLongleg]

If you consider the huge effort going into such a game and the relative small number of potential buyers I think it is great that it is possible to have the expansion for the current price. I am pretty sure that the people from SSG are not driving Ferraris and are having a hard time making a decent living out of their excellent games. (And even if they drove Ferraris - which I doubt - they would have earned it)

So please stop whining. Spend the money, if you want to play the expansion and don't spend the money, if you think it is too expensive. I will certainly buy it.

[Henri]

As a long-time Matrix supporter (I have 15 Matrix games just from Steam), I am a bit divided about this issue.ATD was one of my favorite games, no doubt about that.

I understand and agree with the Matrix policy, the only problem I have is that Kharkov is one of the few SSG games that I don't have, which means about a $90 purchase if I want ATD2.And I am probably not alone...

The obvious marketing solution for this is to give a discount to new customers who buy BOTH games, but I understand that this would be considered unfair to previous owners of Kharkov.One way around this might be to discount only the price of Kharkov, since it is now an "old" game.

I will probably finally decide to dish out the dough since I can afford it, but not all wargamers are in my situation.[&:]

Henri

[LarryP]

I have been watching this game for a while and was planning on getting it when SSG added more scenarios. However, at $90 for the game and expansion, I can't now. I'm not complaining about the price, just the fact that I can't afford $90 for one game now I guess. [;)]

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: LarryP

I have been watching this game for a while and was planning on getting it when SSG added more scenarios. However, at $90 for the game and expansion, I can't now. I'm not complaining about the price, just the fact that I can't afford $90 for one game now I guess. [;)]

Hopefuly this is not a trend starter, otherwise, wargame companies better not complain when they end up making games for 3 guys to buy.

I find amusing the argument that it is a niche market. I wonder why they are not more popular?

Is it because of the popularity of the theme? No.
Is it because of the friendly price? No.
Is it because of the high tech programming? No.
Cutting edge graphics? No.
Bug free? No.

How the heck do you want them to stop being a niche market?... At least make expansions cheap.

[JudgeDredd]

It's a niche market because very few people are interested in the level of complexity in such games.

[TheWombat_matrixforum]

Are you really suggesting that the serious wargame market would grow if the prices were lower? That implies that the main barrier to expanding the market is price, and I'm pretty sure that's not the case. When computer wargames began their prices were high, but so were the prices of pretty much every game out there. For a long time after computer games stabilized as near-mainstream products, wargames from places like SSI and Atomic retailed at the normal prices--and often had very high production values for the times. Yet the niche didn't grow, and one by one the mainstream companies either died (TalonSoft, SSI) or phased out publishing historical wargames entirely.

The reason this is a niche is that there simply are not that many people who want to simulate warfare with any real degree of historical fidelity within the context of a computer simulation. There are tons of folks who want military or war-themed games, and tons of folks who want good military history books, but the number of people who want intricate, complex, historical simulations on their computers is and always has been pretty small. The difference is that today, we are surrounded by and overwhelmed with a plethora of electronic entertainment, in a market where the overall price of such entertainment is constantly driven down in the mainstream due to competition. Unfortunately, you can't directly compare a Panther game or a SSG game or a Grigsby game to, say, Assassins Creed or Grand Theft Auto or Modern Warfare 2 or God of War III. It costs a fortune to make mainstream games that are competitive, so the all have to sell literally millions of copies. So they have to appeal to mass audiences. Wargames don't cost nearly as much, and can appeal to a smaller crowd. But they still cost a good deal to make, because even wargamers are influenced by the standards of the rest of the game industry. Ergo, high prices: you have a small audience that won't grow much, high fixed costs, and no competition because it makes zero sense to launch competing products....

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: LarryP

I have been watching this game for a while and was planning on getting it when SSG added more scenarios. However, at $90 for the game and expansion, I can't now. I'm not complaining about the price, just the fact that I can't afford $90 for one game now I guess. [;)]

Hopefuly this is not a trend starter, otherwise, wargame companies better not complain when they end up making games for 3 guys to buy.

I find amusing the argument that it is a niche market. I wonder why they are not more popular?

Is it because of the popularity of the theme? No.
Is it because of the friendly price? No.
Is it because of the high tech programming? No.
Cutting edge graphics? No.
Bug free? No.

How the heck do you want them to stop being a niche market?... At least make expansions cheap.

[JudgeDredd]

I think there's something else that everyone seems to forget...price per hour.

For me to go to the cinema now, it's £10. So I could go 3 times - watch a 2 hour movie each time and I've paid for the game, yet there are far more than 6 hours of fun to be had in a game.
For me to go play Squash it's £8.50. So I could play 4x45 minutes sessions of squash for the price - that's 3 hours and there's alot more gaming than that in the game.
For me to buy the latest blockbuster on Blu-Ray it's going to cost £17 - that's 2 Blu-Ray DVDs for the same price - 2 movies of 2 hours - that's 4 hours of movie. Even if I watched them twice, I still wouldn't get as many hours out of them as I would a game.

I think too few people (including me from time to time) do not take into account the pleasure per hour that various pastimes give...and how gaming gives soooooo much more for the gaming pound.

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: jmlima

How the heck do you want them to stop being a niche market?... At least make expansions cheap.

I could buy it if it were cheaper, but I believe it's the complexity of this type of game that keeps it in a niche market. Over at Steam, the FPS games sell like mad at $50-$60 a pop. This type of game requires dedication, the same as WitP. The more complex, the more I like the game, but I'm weird. [:D]

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: TheWombat


Are you really suggesting that the serious wargame market would grow if the prices were lower? ...

No. I'm suggesting it's a combination of factors, amongst them the price, or better, the way they are priced.

But hey, wargames companies are free to continue operating as they have during the years, that lead to nowhere for most of them, so I fail to see how repeating the same methods will have any better outcome.

[Ron]

Well it does seem pretty high to me also for an expansion scenario; wasn't the original priced at $20? However I don't think lowering the price is going to magically attract a bunch of new customers either. They have a great system and great AI, but I really would like SSG to bring their maps and resolutions up to date, definitely make them more pleasing to the eye.

[Lützow]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I think there's something else that everyone seems to forget...price per hour.

We had a similiar debate two years ago, when Kharkov was released.

The price is fine and so is the game engine, nothing to complain here. It's rather about content, respectively the lack of. A single 20-turn-scenario, regardless how good it is, remains a single scenario and that's simply not enough bang for the buck. SSG delivered more content in the past, with older titles like BiN or BiI.

So even people who usually don't hesitate to spend 40 bucks for a new wargame, may rather sit on the fence and wait till AtD drops in price.

[TheWombat_matrixforum]

I see your point, but I've watched computer wargaming since its inception as a commercial activity (hell, maybe you have too, I have no idea) and from what I can tell, this is a niche that will NEVER grow that big. You could give the games away and the number of people who would voluntarily move stacks of counters around on their screen and maneuver for 3:1 odds or whatnot is simply just not that large. Wargamers are a specific and focused bunch, like a lot of hobby fans, and it's just that our particular hobby ain't that appealing to most folks. Me, I've been pushing counters since the early 1970s (mostly virtually these days, but in the day many, many pieces of cardboard), and I've seen the heyday of "adventure gaming" in board games and the predictions of a wargame boom there, as well as the ups and downs of PC gaming...and it always comes back to the hard core (corps?) of grogs and their limited market.

I certainly could be wrong, but I rather doubt that lowering prices of current generation wargames would generate vastly increased revenues. One reason I say that is that the people making and selling these games are not stupid. If they could make more, with lower prices, they would.

ORIGINAL: jmlima

ORIGINAL: TheWombat


Are you really suggesting that the serious wargame market would grow if the prices were lower? ...

No. I'm suggesting it's a combination of factors, amongst them the price, or better, the way they are priced.

But hey, wargames companies are free to continue operating as they have during the years, that lead to nowhere for most of them, so I fail to see how repeating the same methods will have any better outcome.

[JudgeDredd]

Yes - I believe we did. In fact I remember well I was one of the people who staggered at the price of KDotD - I thought it was way too high for a single scenario. But I now believe I got my monies worth and then some. The system is great and the game was a gem. I loved playing it and it's still on my hard drive ready to be fired up again. In fact, I liked it so much, I then went and bought BiI and BiN...older systems, but I liked SSGs design so much, I had to own them.

I too think the price is steep...but not for an SSG game. Any other game, yep...but not SSG. Sorry, that's just how I see it. I was converted after Kharkov and will buy this companys games when they aree released...I'm that confident of getting many hours out the game.

[LarryP]

Judge; I remember when you bought this game, I was watching you closely to see when you would throw in the towel. You came back with nothing but praises for it. That's when I thought I had better get this when more scenarios came out. [:D]