CO - BftB: Tutorial AAR - The Other Side

[OlegHasky]

Wow.. just how good is that from the AI.. just wow...... [8|]

Sure You can find a good explanation. But it still blown me away. Pure finesia.

/By the way, I like Your lone move with 1.27 to Steinebruck, those brave, dangerous (but measured) decisions that only human can take is what i value hight - good one/

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: ElchDivision

By the way, just in case you are interested -

This is who is commanding Infanterie-Regiment 27 :

Heinz Georg Lemm (Knights Cross with Swords, Close Combat Badge in Silver and more). One of the youngest regimental commanders of the Wehrmacht.
After being awarded the swords to his Knights Cross he is reported to have said "I would have prefered 1000 artillery shells or 5 assault guns".

My missus would love him...real German looking...

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: OlegHasky

Wow.. just how good is that from the AI.. just wow...... [8|]

Sure You can find a good explanation. But it still blown me away. Pure finesia.

Oleg

I was actually waiting for you to post exactly that, and had already been thinking about what to say in regards to that observation.

The AI was focused on taking St Vith - the point of their entire battle was to take and secure it. It was so much so that it neglected properly defending the rest of its line. What a stupid mistake that a human would never make right?

I did the exact same thing in my other AAR. The last two nights in that game, I found that my aggressive attack to take and then hold St Vith left my entire supply line open to interdiction - and the German AI did exactly that, and exactly what I am now doing in my game. Also, there are limitless examples from history that show the same exact thing - including the Battle of the Bulge. How would you rate the Germans flank defense of their gains? Did they not also suffer from obsessing about a single target - thereby neglecting other areas? Bastogne anyone?

The AI is *not* perfect. No one ever said it was. But it *is* good. It will give you a good opponent. As I said earlier Oleg, you could sit here all day picking the AI to pieces on how it could do better or how it did something that was completely stupid. Fire up HttR or CotA, play against a human opponent - which by everyone estimation is the pinacle of challenge - record their every move as I have doen so here, and see how 'perfect' they play. Or do the same with your own moves. The AI is there to be a challenging opponent - not the pinnacle of stagety that some expect it to be.

Anyways, I baited the AI to do exactly that. By not pulling my troops that were pushed aside back, they were in a perfect position to harass the enemy over the following days.

[OlegHasky]

Ok cholo.. dont bother. Enjoy the game. Forgive my explosion. Just couldnt resist. [:'(]
I have rebel elements in me along with scientific predilections, like to jump over the fire just to observe its heat from a good perspective.

I have my view on Artificial Inteligence, at deep base.. wich, I think is far from shifting. My view does not exclude actual facts about the mechanizms on wich AI is operating. (So i take your clarifications on that matter as directed to the overall view)


My point here was not to convert anybody. Just to stamp my view officialy.(and maybe observe a potential histerical reaction of people hurted emotions overwhelmed by "new baby" explodning [;)] - didnt came.. but Ive observed significant overall "Ai defend" awakening within peoples, sub-couciosly encreasing positives marks on the AI written elswhere) Ive expanded it insignificantly [;)] using your AAr as example (if it wasnt to comfortable , I am sorry).


Rebel was aimed rather at limitating "emptyness" of the machine. As human, even when making a mistake - covering it with his energy.. A maze of potential thoughts that makes the mistake "live", more life than the most brilliant move of the AI (maybe Im just to philosophical)

Your stand up had its windstom , and was written in real class gentelmen manner. You have all the rasons to jump on my with your teeth for bothering Your expierience, and You didnt.

You gained my respect.

Oleg,

P.S. I am expecting a further ARRs from You , as I see your passion reflecting on them

[Chad Harrison]

D3 - 11:00

Immediately upon their arrival, KG Peiper was ordered to launch an attack to encirecle the over exposed American troops. The plan was two fold:

1. Using our armor (I Bn 1st SS Pz Rgt and 501st Bn SS Schwere), we would assault across the open ground to the South and Southwest of St Vith. As our troops are quite tired from the drive all night to arrive, we will not press the attack too heavily today. The main goal is to contain the troops already in St Vith.

2. All the AAA units from KG Peiper and the mechanized infantry (III Bn 1st SS PzGr Rgt) would cross over back roads through Neidengen to get into Breitfeld. Here the mech infantry would launch their own assault into St Vith - while the AAA troops set up defenses for the inevitable flow of American armor and infantry.

Reports over the past three hours have been very promising. KG Peiper is reporting that all of their units are in place and preparing to launch their attacks. Breitfeld is now heavily defended - but they lack heavy anti tank assets. Hopefully what they have will be enough. The 27th continue to hold on dodgedly to the South, but once again 1 and 2 Co have been pushed into the woods, and once again they are resting until nightfall. However, these two companies have done a tremendous job of delaying CCR - giving KG Peiper time to get into position. Reports from II Bn are that both infantry and armor are approaching Lommersweiler - looks like another tough day ahead of them.

No doubt there is a day full of hard fighting ahead. But, spirits are high - we have done the impossible!

[Chad Harrison]

D3 - 22:00

Our staff is exausted. An entire day of reports of heavy fighting, heavy losses, requests for artillery, requests for reinforcements, requests for everything we can provide. This afternoon has seen the strongest fighting in this sector yet. And for all this fighting, the reports coming in indicate that not much has changed. The Amercian units of CCA and CCB are still in St Vith - although in a smaller sector. Our troops are still holding onto Lommersweiler, but after being pushed back, their forces are dwindled - but still holding on. The enemy is now also probing Breitfeld - we are holding - for now.

Most of all, our troops are tired. Beyond tired. For the 27th, three days of hard fighting has severly depleted their units. Their ability to fight is almost gone. If the situation were not so desperate, the entire unit would be pulled back home to refit and reorg - but we do not have that luxury.

For this night, the first and foremost order is to rest and prepare for one last day of fighting. Although, how much rest can you get in freezing snow?

[Chad Harrison]

D4 - 06:00

The final 24 hours is now upon us.

It is hard for us to imagine that 48 hours ago, we did not expect to see this day. Yet here we are, and we are holding our own. The next 24 hours will decide if it was all worth it.

This night was quiet. We rested. The enemy rested. It is going to be a bloody day for sure. The plan is simple - stay in our foxholes and let the enemy attack out of St Vith. They will be low on ammo and basic supplies. After their attack loses momentum, we will attack. Our infantry and tanks are well rested, fueled and ready to fight. Even if St Vith does not fully fall today, it will soon.

The staff here is exausted - and we expect the next 24 hours to be very busy. Our next report will be after that time. Then we will find out whether or not the many, many sacrifices of both 27th Fusilier or KG Peiper gained us anything significant . . .

[Chad Harrison]

D5 - 06:00

It is over.

Finally, after five days of hard fighting, we are finished here. HQ is reporting that fresh troops are enroute to relieve our worn and tired troops. Someone else will finish this fight.

But the surviving troops of this battle will be able to hold their heads high for they have done the impossible - they alone have stopped the mighty 4th Armored Division. What seemed like an impossible prospect five days ago has become a reality - we have delayed the Americans to the point that they have lost their combat effectiveness. The 4th will have to talk weeks, if not months, to regain the losses they had suffered today. It is impossible to accurately count or estimate their losses, but surveying the battlefield shows dozens of burnt out tank hulks, over turned half tracks and smoking supply trucks. This battle has cost them dearly.

But what has it cost us? The 27th Fusilier unfortunately. While the 1, 2, 6 and 7 Co are still reporting, they are no longer combat effective units. The sacrifice of the 27th Fusilier is what it took to stop the 4th Armored. The few surviving units will travel back to the homeland to help train replacements. And for KG Peiper, they are still in good condition. Tired and worn from two days of hard fighting, but they will fight again soon we are sure. Lastly, II Bn 48th Gren was also badly mauled in St Vith itself. But they have held on for the past four days against the Americans. Initial losses were high, but these troops quickly learned how to be masters of the defense in this torn city - 149 riflemen still hold the North entrance to St Vith, and they have held it for the past four days.

All in all, we are proud of our fellow troops. They have fought well. No, we did not smash the enemy. But we did make them bleed. At this point in the war, and after the failed great offensive, perhaps that is the best we can hope for.

[Chad Harrison]

Well, thats that. To be honest, I kept forgetting that I was playing the tutorial for crying out loud! I have to admit, that I am surprised. I really thought that this was going to be a bloodbath. Well, it did end up a bloodbath, but an equal one on both sides. It is really hard to tell while the game is going how many losses you are inflicting on the enemy - outside of destroyed units, theres no real way to know (realistically so). So once the battle was finally over, I was surprised how close the numbers are: we lost 1909 infantry, they lost 1944. Wow! All that close-in fighting really did bleed them. I really wish there was a way to know who and/or what did this. Was it artillery? Was it the 27th? Or KG Peiper in St Vith? Regardless, we made them bleed.

I am also quite proud by the number of AFV's that they lost. Now remember, in this game, and AFV is literally that: *armored* fighting vehcile. So that does not translate to 'tanks lost'. This would include half-tracks for instance. Still, thats a staggering number. I will tell you what, those King Tigers were bears. They sat on the South side of St Vith pouring shot after shot into the Americans. I can only imagine how much damage they caused - all that for a loss of two King Tigers. Not bad! [:D]

As always, looking back I see a number of different things that I should have done better. None of them major, but just little things. I know some will (one already has [:)]) say that the AI made a really dumb mistake with their total assault on St Vith. If you have not read my other AAR, I did the same thing. Objective fixation is just as real in this game as it is in real life. The AI made the same mistake that many have made before it: not consolodating its gains. I punished it for that mistake as you can see in this AAR - especially at Breitfeld.

All in all a great experience - and honestly, fun to write about. I have never done AAR's before, and I am really enjoying it. Makes me think more about what I am doing. I hope you have enjoyed reading this as much as I have writing it.

If you are still sitting on the fence about this game, the demo will be with us in the near future. My understanding is that it will have this scenario. Given both my AAR's, you are in for a treat. It is easily playable form either side. Its a great game. A great game indeed.

Thanks again for reading!

Chad

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: OlegHasky

Ok cholo.. dont bother. Enjoy the game. Forgive my explosion. Just couldnt resist. [:'(]
I have rebel elements in me along with scientific predilections, like to jump over the fire just to observe its heat from a good perspective.

. . .

P.S. I am expecting a further ARRs from You , as I see your passion reflecting on them

No problems Oleg. We are all wargammers after all - picking things apart is in our nature [:D]

I am glad you enjoyed this AAR. I am toying with the idea of doing more . . .

[daft]

Good write-up Chad! And I think you did really well in your endeavours. I know I would have done a lot worse. I'll try and get an AAR going myself tonight.

[DanOppenheim]

Awesome pair of AARs, Chad. Well written and interesting. Thanks very much for doing them!

[henri51]

Great AAR, Chad.One interesting point: your "almost disaster" turned into your favor almost accidentally. Here is why IMHO (feel free to disagree).

Your initial plan of defending the line and waiting to see how it went raised a red flag for me (since I had already played the scenario). The absolute superiority of the US column coming up the road would give you no chance to re-organize once they hit, so there was a danger that you would be caught in a loop of reactions giving you no chance to control your own units North of the bridge.

As it happened, you were thrown back, but your location and remaining strength in that area gave you the opportunity to harrass the critical intersection NW of the bridge, which is the key point for US supplies to the St Vith area. The failure of the enemy to ensure control of the road in this area while you were totally disorganized resulted in your ability to hit them where they were the weakest - in their supply line.

You got a well-deserved draw, but from a big picture point of view, the Germans have failed (as they did historically with the units further to the West) to open a supply line to PzGrp Peiper, who by now would be running on their last gallon of fuel.(hmmmm....or could Peiper get supplies from the South? If so this raises interesting ideas for Peiper to attack SOUTH instead of going after St Vith -imagine KG Peiper overrunning the US supply and HQ units in the South!...[X(]).

I still suspect that the Germans should be able to pull out a victory from this scenario. As I wrote earlier, in my game, due to lack of time, I just gave one attack order to PzGrp Peiper when they arrived to take St Vith, and due to orders delays, it was 3 PM before the attack was launched - and I still got a draw.It would be interesting to see what would have happened in your game had Peiper only arrrived at St Vith at 15:00.

I am looking forward to your next AAR. Your AARs are very enjoyable - keep it up.[:)]

Henri

[Chad Harrison]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

Daft, we need more AAR's in here so people can see what a great game and investment this is! Looking forward to seeing it.

Dan, thanks for the kind words and for reading. I am starting another AAR as we speak . . .

Henri, looking back on that now, I agree with you. I still stand by my decision to stay in the foxholes - especially given the fact that the AI was super aggressive and was at my front lines in moments (as with most scenarios, the attacks have no delay, while the defenders do). But, as you pointed out and as we saw throughout the AAR, the 27th was able to be a pain in the side of the Americans for days to come. As for the supply issues, remember that this is not a historical scenario, or even a 'what-if'. The OOB's are correct, but this never occured. I think it was the 7th Armored who retook St Vith - and they came from the North. Still, I was happy that I was able to move KG Peiper HQ and base to the supply side of the map. If the battle was longer, I would have had ample supply.

Thanks again for reading and commenting

Chad

[OlegHasky]

Allow me once more here Chad [;)]

As You stand by Your foxholes. I will mark my stand on the opinion that the AI had made a combination of mistakes here in its old fashion.
-------------------------------------------
I also would like to conclude my point.
As You wrote about the similarity of Human-AI commiting errors.

Agreed.. But In my opinion it is the % rate of particular errors that is making the difference between both.
Heres my point..

The dense of major strategical errors are indeed about the same. As both H, AI are hitting 1 (/2) major strategic errors in their lost outcomes.
Minor errors (at battalion level), that are not having such impact on the end outcome is shifting delicatly in its (highter) % towards AI. As its actions (determined by the "cold" data template record forcing it to it most of the times.)

But heres the bigger , and I think most painfull % rate about the AI. "The type of the mistake". (call it the realistic of errors)
Within all the -major strategical errors, and the minor battalion errors comited by both - the % disparity of completly ridiculous errors is shifting heavily towards AI.
(The type of errors such dum you have dificulties to clip it to anything, and the only way You can do is to assign them to the.. pure.. AI.. nature.. and data template record limitations...)
I think the AI has a very significant such like errors within his (´almost´ - if you wish to call it) comparable error rate with Human. And that is what makin a difference.

It is enough reason for me to deny the overall glorification of the AI. And the statements that its "brilliant"
It is not the reason enough to deny the good expierience that it can give You.
The big boarder hassnt been crossed.
And the excitement is a bit just to far advanced. (but evryone personaly have their right to it, and i dont want to take it from them)


-------------------------------------
Whole above as My personal view, on wich I have deployed some 88s, covered by some Mgs 42 [:'(]

Thank you for patient reading [:)]

Hasky.

[Magpius]

[&o]
the number of page hits says it all.
played out like a thriller.
Great Work Chad.

[Chad Harrison]

AgentS - Thanks for reading. Honestly, it really makes writing these much more fun - although more time consuming. Luckily, I have had time, so far . . .

Hasky - Fair enough. What was that saying? 'To error is human. But to really, really screw things up, it takes a computer'. Obviously, Panther Games is always working on its AI - it will get more and more efficient over time. But honestly, I am happy with it. It certainly keeps things interesting.

[Tophat1815]

ORIGINAL: OlegHasky

Allow me once more here Chad [;)]

As You stand by Your foxholes. I will mark my stand on the opinion that the AI had made a combination of mistakes here in its old fashion.
-------------------------------------------
I also would like to conclude my point.
As You wrote about the similarity of Human-AI commiting errors.

Agreed.. But In my opinion it is the % rate of particular errors that is making the difference between both.
Heres my point..

The dense of major strategical errors are indeed about the same. As both H, AI are hitting 1 (/2) major strategic errors in their lost outcomes.
Minor errors (at battalion level), that are not having such impact on the end outcome is shifting delicatly in its (highter) % towards AI. As its actions (determined by the "cold" data template record forcing it to it most of the times.)

But heres the bigger , and I think most painfull % rate about the AI. "The type of the mistake". (call it the realistic of errors)
Within all the -major strategical errors, and the minor battalion errors comited by both - the % disparity of completly ridiculous errors is shifting heavily towards AI.
(The type of errors such dum you have dificulties to clip it to anything, and the only way You can do is to assign them to the.. pure.. AI.. nature.. and data template record limitations...)
I think the AI has a very significant such like errors within his (´almost´ - if you wish to call it) comparable error rate with Human. And that is what makin a difference.

It is enough reason for me to deny the overall glorification of the AI. And the statements that its "brilliant"
It is not the reason enough to deny the good expierience that it can give You.
The big boarder hassnt been crossed.
And the excitement is a bit just to far advanced. (but evryone personaly have their right to it, and i dont want to take it from them)


-------------------------------------
Whole above as My personal view, on wich I have deployed some 88s, covered by some Mgs 42 [:'(]

Thank you for patient reading [:)]

Hasky.

Name these errors please? point them out in detail and prove your point please. The floor is yours.Present your proof and argue your case councilor.

[OlegHasky]

Name these errors please? point them out in detail and prove your point please. The floor is yours.Present your proof and argue your case councilor

Access Denied cholo. That was dirty. I do not find a need to feed your insidious ego hunger. (As for my true, pure inside feeling[:'(])
Play the game, observe, and try to adjust it. If you wont find it fit, than accept it as my halucination.. [8D]

P.S. - It is good to rely on recon sometimes, before deploying dark intentions.

My point here was not to convert anybody. Just to stamp my view officialy

your tanks was spooted, and last thing they saw was a squadron of Stuka diving on them.

peace [8|][:-]