Pilots: CAP and Fatigue

[traskott]

Side question: As Land Based Radar doesn't work, will naval based radar work as early warning for my Land Based Fighters  ? 

[CV2]

It seems to. From my limited experience (most Jap ships dont have radar).

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: traskott

Side question: As Land Based Radar doesn't work, will naval based radar work as early warning for my Land Based Fighters  ? 

it does

[castor troy]

here´s one of the units being set to 80% Cap 20 rest. Average fat is 24 so my comment about fat being 30-40 was even exagerated. For me it´s still high fat. This unit was flying with this setting for weeks already. Again, for me the fat is high but it´s definetely not as high to stop anyone from flying so the comments on page one about fat stopping pilots from flying 80% Cap isn´t valid for me.

[castor troy]

and the pilots in detail of this squadron, note that only one is above 40, many are even below 20.

[traskott]

Thank both for the answers....


I think what we need to know is how much affect fatigue to a pilot, in raw numbers (ie: 20 fatiga, 20% less likely to hit something, or something like that).

[USSAmerica]

The examples sure illustrate how much more fatigue is caused by LRCAP than regular CAP. 

Castor, can you tell us what your ops losses have been like for units similar to your example, running 80% CAP/20% Rest?  Assuming they are acceptable (very subjective, I know) I may start bumping my normal CAP levels up a bit.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

ORIGINAL: castor troy





30% Cap and the non working land based radar at the moments you can expect some 15% of the fighters in the air... better to abandon the base completely of fighters then...

What... radar does not work? [&:]

lol, you must have missed lots of posts lately! [:D] Yeah, land based radar is out of order, going to be fixed with the next patch. IIRC, land based radar "works" and detects incoming raids but is then "overwritten" by the observers. Hence no radar detection from land based radar sets. Ship based radar works just fine (probably because there are no observers [:D]). Has been like this for months. Have you never realized that you only get a couple of minutes prewarning time during attacks on bases?

Don't observers eventually get phased out in favor of radar or do they stay in the OOBs deep into the game?

[Lifer]

Can a TF with radar in a base hex help land-based air protect the base or does the Observer device overwrite the ship based radar detection (when protecting the base)?  I would assume that radar detection of the TF would take precedence if the TF was targeted (in a base hex).

[crsutton]

30% CAP and I raise it when I suspect something big is coming or I have an important TF arriving. No rest in the front lines. Units rest up fine without setting them to rest, and any unit on rest will not fight no matter what.

I find that units with high morale will fly even with high fatigue. More of em might get shot down but they will fly. It really is morale that you need to heed. Just as important for OP losses is plane fatigue-especially with the heavies. A couple of long range missions can really work over a big bomber. Your pilots might be fully rested but your planes worn out. Funny, I was at least 400 turns into my campaign before I realized that planes actually accumulated fatigue separate from the pilots.

[Kwik E Mart]

i'm glad some of you guys aren't negotiators or ambassadors...the red button would have been pushed a LONG time ago due to gross mis-communication...[X(]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: CV2

Put 2 to 3 times the number of pilots to planes in the group and fatigue is no longer an issue (in the above example with a 16 plane group you should be sporting 30 to 40 pilots, not the 14 pictured). The only thing you have to worry about then is aircraft fatigue. While I have never actually tracked it, if you max out your reserve aircraft, this will go a long way toward solving that problem as well.

The max pilots this group will take is 21 with 16 aircraft, no reserves. (No reserves are possible.) You never have the option to put as many pilots in a group as you like.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: USS America

The examples sure illustrate how much more fatigue is caused by LRCAP than regular CAP. 

Castor, can you tell us what your ops losses have been like for units similar to your example, running 80% CAP/20% Rest?  Assuming they are acceptable (very subjective, I know) I may start bumping my normal CAP levels up a bit.

I ran a controlled test this afternoon with four fighter units. I'll post either tomorrow or Thursday. I think CT's results are all mixed up due to combat, KIA losses, replacements, etc. Look at the mission numbers and cross them to the fatigue numbers in his P-47 unit. Crazy. (19 misisons, 44 fat.; 276 misisons 24 fat.) He also doesn't say if his unit is in malaria-land (it's whited out.)

I ran my test at SF and PH, with no combat, with both over-manned and not-overmanned unts, same flight specs (alt, range, mostly with P-40Bs.) While I got fat. numbers in the 0-40 range more or less, I also got very different mission numbers, without replacements to explain it. So it appears the results he's reporting, and I saw without LRCAP, of 30ish fatigue over time, is because the game IS grounding pilots when they cross a fatigue trigger point that isn't shown, and might vary with CO specs or some other metric.

You can also get a couple of data points for OPs losses.

I'll post sceenies ASAP, but not tonight.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

and the pilots in detail of this squadron, note that only one is above 40, many are even below 20.

But look at the misison numbers, and compare them to the fat numbers. SOME pilots are being grounded, although it's impossible to say how many because you have combat losses and replacements gumming up the numbers. It's possible that 30-40 is the grounding number, unless LRCAP is included in the mix. I don't know. But your numbers are not linear in any way inside the same unit.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

i'm glad some of you guys aren't negotiators or ambassadors...the red button would have been pushed a LONG time ago due to gross mis-communication...[X(]

You got a useful comment, or do you just like being a jerk?

[Sheytan]

I think some people fail to realise any discussion in a civil forum is one of give and take. Perhaps Kwik dosnt understand that?

Edited to add, I frankly enjoy these discussions in which people stick to thier guns either way. Frankly I am of the opinion that as a RESULT of these types of discussions things get fixed, things that NEED fixing get identified.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

i'm glad some of you guys aren't negotiators or ambassadors...the red button would have been pushed a LONG time ago due to gross mis-communication...[X(]

You got a useful comment, or do you just like being a jerk?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: USS America

The examples sure illustrate how much more fatigue is caused by LRCAP than regular CAP. 

Castor, can you tell us what your ops losses have been like for units similar to your example, running 80% CAP/20% Rest?  Assuming they are acceptable (very subjective, I know) I may start bumping my normal CAP levels up a bit.

op losses? Not existing when only flying Cap and there aren´t attacks. At least not that I would really notice. One in weeks? If there isn´t action, I usually lose 1 fighter every couple of days on the whole MAP. Can´t be compared to my op losses during nav search when my aircraft drop out of the sky at a rate of 2 or 3 per day.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: DivePac88




What... radar does not work? [&:]

lol, you must have missed lots of posts lately! [:D] Yeah, land based radar is out of order, going to be fixed with the next patch. IIRC, land based radar "works" and detects incoming raids but is then "overwritten" by the observers. Hence no radar detection from land based radar sets. Ship based radar works just fine (probably because there are no observers [:D]). Has been like this for months. Have you never realized that you only get a couple of minutes prewarning time during attacks on bases?

Don't observers eventually get phased out in favor of radar or do they stay in the OOBs deep into the game?

don´t know, there must be something different acting as "spotters" too then because even if I´ve got no "observer" device at a base but only radar, the radar still does nothing. Guess the only thing that´s going to help will be the patch, hopefully to come before my PBEM enters 46. [:D]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: castor troy

and the pilots in detail of this squadron, note that only one is above 40, many are even below 20.

But look at the misison numbers, and compare them to the fat numbers. SOME pilots are being grounded, although it's impossible to say how many because you have combat losses and replacements gumming up the numbers. It's possible that 30-40 is the grounding number, unless LRCAP is included in the mix. I don't know. But your numbers are not linear in any way inside the same unit.

don´t get me wrong please, but forget about the mission numbers in this example. Sure there are pilots STOOD DOWN every day. Why? Because there are 25 aircraft and 33 pilots, means 8 pilots are stood down every day I would say. The fact that there are pilots with hundreds of missions and some with below 50 is the reason that these have been transferred to this squadron "lately" while the ones with hundreds of missions were either longer in this squadron or longer in their "training" squadron where they also accumulated missions. And yes, I bet the game still has the habit to pick the same pilots again and again for a mission until some magic point (40 fat? I don´t know) but this still doesn´t mean that a single of my fighters stays on the ground due to fat because I´ve got 8 "reserve" pilots so 80% 20% rest works quite "well".

To see how the game really treats pilots on Cap shouldn´t be hard so. Just clear a squadron of all pilots and pull all new replacement pilots without any missions and set the squadron to Cap and just leave it for two months. This then gives a clear sight on what is going on but looking at such a squadron like we both have posted it doesn´t make sense because you just can´t tell what is going on with such a mission count. Should be easy though if all pilots start at 0 missions and are doing nothing else than flying CAP.

edit: Anderson was put in reserve this turn obviously and is the only one above 40. Don´t know if it just happened by accident or if it really has to do something with fat. Could be, I don´t know.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

30% CAP and I raise it when I suspect something big is coming or I have an important TF arriving. No rest in the front lines. Units rest up fine without setting them to rest, and any unit on rest will not fight no matter what.

I find that units with high morale will fly even with high fatigue. More of em might get shot down but they will fly. It really is morale that you need to heed. Just as important for OP losses is plane fatigue-especially with the heavies. A couple of long range missions can really work over a big bomber. Your pilots might be fully rested but your planes worn out. Funny, I was at least 400 turns into my campaign before I realized that planes actually accumulated fatigue separate from the pilots.

Fighter squadrons with a % on rest are supposed to scramble their fighters if they´ve got the chance to do so, they probably just need enough pre warning time. Heck, but we don´t get pre warning without radar... [:D]