Planet Outposts

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Aures
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Aures »

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111
Let's say you discover the Loros fruit. It is a resource which is extremely valuable, but you do not yet know how to establish a long-term colony on a swamp planet. You could, and should, build a mining base there to harvest this resource, but if an enemy colony ship swoops in you have lost it unless you commit to military action. There is no negative impact on the other race for stealing this planet from you, your mining base is instantly dismantled (along with all of its harvested fruit!) which is a huge potential loss.

That is really the heart of the issue for me (at least the non sphere of influence part of it, that has already been flagged as an area for improvement) and is not entirely sensible. I don't think there is any need for an extra outpost system, a base would function fine as an outpost if the game actually recognised it as giving some claim over where the base is sited. Bases already have all the characteristics you want for an outpost except for that recognition.

Colonizing a world with a mining base that belongs to another empire is an aggressive action and should be regarded as such. I don't like it when other empires do it to me and it is silly and cheap that other empires don't care when I do it to them. There are several ways of implementing this effect which I think would all work well together:

Colonization targets with another empire's base on it should be covered by the "Allow colonization and mining stations in other empires systems" tickbox. For the AI it wouldn't require any additional code since they already do or don't do this based on the empire's characteristics;

Colonizing a planet with another empire's base on it should lower the "Our past relations have been" value for diplomacy purposes. Note that it should not incur a reputation hit of any kind;

Colony ships attempting attempting to colonize a planet with another empire's base on it should be regarded as hostile targets and the base and any ships in the area should open fire on it automatically and without any rep hit (as if they had been directly attacked by the colony ship). This is basically what players already do manually to prevent their bases being colonized but would require some subtle coding. First, something needs to be put in place to prevent the AI repeatedly wasting colony ships against a target (classifying it the same way that colonies with a pirate/life form detected warning are handled would probably work). Second, empires should take account of their relationship with the other empire before attempting it (for players it is a non issue since it is up to them how they value their relationships with AI empires. AI empires would be more likely to try and trade for the base with a free trade agreement/mutual defense pact while taking account of their current feelings towards the other empire and their own empire characteristics). Third, there is the matter of what that should do to the "Our past relations have been" value (probably okay to leave the current code in place which would lower this value if the first two points are addressed properly). Finally, there is the matter of armed colony ships (assuming the default colony ship designs will always be unarmed it is a non issue for AI empires, players should have to manually tell the colony ship to attack with associated rep hit just as if it was a separate military ship.);

Colony ships en route to a planet with another empire's base should be able to show up just as if it were a fleet on an attack vector, giving forces in the area time to rally (if their sensor network is able to detect it and they are able to spare the ships) and making it much harder to pull this off successfully against an opponent that is properly set up.

I think that would allow the AI behaviour to be as flexible and as close to player behaviour as is possible while giving players an interesting dilemma to face. Do you declare war, attack the mining base without declaring war, trade for the mining base or try to take it with a heavily shielded colony ship and suffer the relationship hit?

The only other thing to consider is troops. It would be nice to be able to board ships and bases with troops and take them over but there are a couple of issues that make it quite a complicated improvement to consider. As it can be treated as a separate issue it is a matter for another day and I do not think it is as much of a priority as making bases have some kind of claim over planets.
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forsaken1111
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by forsaken1111 »

That sounds like a fine way to implement it in the current system, but I would put some important requirements on what kind of base is required to 'claim' the planet in this case. If no lower limit is in place, you can design a micro starbase with nothing but the bare-bones systems and build them all over for almost no cost.

Perhaps a minimum size or cost? I don't know.
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Webbco
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Webbco »

Just an observation/thought... An outpost system would be more realistic (I use the term loosely [;)]) than empire borders. Obviously the reality of space means that a galaxy map would not be spread out in a convenient 2 dimensional format. The game Homeworld gives a good example of the utilization of a 3D map, where an object (e.g. an enemy ship) that initially looks close to your own ships (using X and Y axes) is actually quite a distance when you apply the Z-axis (it can be confusing to pinpoint exact locations of objects).

DW obviously couldn't use this type of 3D map but it's worth thinking about. Maybe labelling the distances between 2 star systems on the galaxy map could be a good idea? So even if a star system appears close to your existing colonies, it might actually be quite far away (in terms of the Z axis).

Maybe trying to introduce 3D elements into a 2D game would be pointless...I'm thinking out loud a bit here [:D]
forsaken1111
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by forsaken1111 »

Webbco, I think that could get extremely confusing. Good thought, but I don't think DW is really built to handle it.
Aures
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Aures »

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

That sounds like a fine way to implement it in the current system, but I would put some important requirements on what kind of base is required to 'claim' the planet in this case. If no lower limit is in place, you can design a micro starbase with nothing but the bare-bones systems and build them all over for almost no cost.

Perhaps a minimum size or cost? I don't know.
Good point. I think a player putting a tiny base (doesn't apply to the AI since they use default designs) would be viable option and I don't see too much of an issue with it. It would have no ability to defend itself and would rely entirely on other ships coming to its aid. The ability to see a colony ship incoming would rely on your sensor network rather than any feature of the base anyway (and is something you already know about if you happened to look, it is just the actual notification to draw your attention to it that would be implemented). Maybe the size of the relationship hit should be linked to the base cost to make colonizing a planet with a smaller base a more attractive prospect?

I am not sure exactly how the rep hit that comes with launching an attack without declaring war works but maybe it is already linked to the size of the target that is taken out (or the number of times it is shot or something similar). In that case it would be easy and relatively painless for an AI to take out a tiny base and they should not think much of doing it even if they are relatively honorable and on good terms with you. It is not ideal but the player is already able to deny colonization targets to AI empires if they have the ships and sensor network to back it up, it just requires intense micromanagement. All the tiny base would do is remove the need to micromanage and prevent getting a rep hit from destroying the incoming colony ship.

I dislike arbitrary limits such as a minimum required base size but maybe that is the best solution in this case. The default mining bases are around 300 size (at starting tech in the game I just started, your results may vary) so a limit of 250 would probably be ok. It would also kind of make sense as far as having the ability to attack without a rep hit and getting a notification of an incoming ship goes.

EDIT: I have put a bit of thought into moving DW from 2 and tiny bit D to 2.5D but that is a topic for another thread (and maybe something to consider for DW2 somewhere down the track rather than any expansion of DW).
Most of my Empires are too big

nammafia
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by nammafia »

The empire border should not prevent other empires from establishing their own colonies or mining platforms within your border; it will create political discourses, however. For instance, a xenophobia race/political system would be very annoyed at other empires operating near it, leading to hostile actions. A fleet of military ships can't just cross into your border without a warning.

The border will also help with visualization making late game a little easier to manage. This is really the reason I want some kind of delineation to help me enjoying the late game more.
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forsaken1111
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by forsaken1111 »

Aures, I only brought up the starbase size thing because you can make a 'starbase' which is like size 50. :P
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Simulation01
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Simulation01 »

I thought of a middle ground solution in a post earlier, but no one seems to have noticed it.  Why not add a button or command for you ships to blockade a potential colony?  They would fire on friend or foe that attempted to colonize the planet.


I still like the outpost idea.....  if you're worried about spamming the galaxy with them....well...that's an interesting fear since that is exactly what the AI is doing except with colony ships.  They spam the hell out of the entire galaxy!


If you introduced the idea of outposts, empire borders, and reduced the ranges of all ships in the game....I think it would make the game much more realistic.  If I were actually running and interstellar empire I would not want to found a colony a couple of light years....or in this case pixels away from my main rival unless I went in there with a fleet....however the AI does this across the galaxy.


I think one reason we are having colony spamming problems ( and this was an issue in the Civilization series as well ) is that the cost of building and maintaining a colony is too cheap.  In RL this would be an incredible undertaking...not just in terms of the logistics of moving the people..but of growing the colony and maintaining it.  Which brings me to another thought which I have not noticed in the game...maybe it's there....and that is the idea of plagues or diseases that would break out on your and AI colony's.  They would require you to maybe send a hospital ship and or quarantine the planet with ships ( but that is for another thread I think ).


Also, just a note but in RL the idea of Sovereignty( and empires territory ) is usually reinforced by the presence of a nations military.  Meaning that if a nation wishes to claim something....then that nation must make a claim and back it up with displays of sovereignty to make it more....ummm...legal.  As and example.....take the 'Northwestern passage'....this was a supposed route to the far east by way of a route to the north of Canada.  It however was not there due to being cut off by ice.  Today that ice is receding and the fabled passage is opening up.  The international community is claiming that it is in international waters, but Canada is claiming rights over the passage.  In order to do this Canada must send warships through the area to reinforce it's sovereignty in hopes of gaining ground in the courts.  This is also happening with some of it's northern most islands.....Canada must 'show the flag' or run the risk of having it's sovereignty diminished.

The point of that is that if the concept of an empire's territory is introduced....then Empire's should be able to make territorial claims close to it's borders ( ie this would be done by the player ) but these would be 'soft' claims that would have to be reinforced by the players military and would be in 'dispute' until a colony is established.  The presence of an outpost would help to hold the claim but would not solidify the claim...unless a sufficient amount of time has passed with a continuous military presence. 


Agggghhhhhhhh!!!  I can't think without a DR. Pepper!! 
"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson
forsaken1111
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by forsaken1111 »

Interesting idea about 'growing' the colony: Shouldn't colonies use up strategic resources as well? Steel for new construction, for example. Hydrogen/Caslon for planetary power generation. Etc
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Simulation01
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Simulation01 »

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

Interesting idea about 'growing' the colony: Shouldn't colonies use up strategic resources as well? Steel for new construction, for example. Hydrogen/Caslon for planetary power generation. Etc


I would think so.... I mean colony's...even between continents were no small feat and required continuous up front support in order to be successful...and even if it survived...it took a long time to become self sufficient.

IMHO ( really humble I respect the creators ), something has to be done about colony spamming..... Steps in that direction are: increased colony cost, Empire borders, Outposts/planetary blockades of some sort, plagues/diseases, Ship Range decreases ( ie fuel storage/usage ratio ), larger maps that have greater scales not just more stars ( ie stars that are farther apart ).
"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson
forsaken1111
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by forsaken1111 »

If a colony took a constant supply of the more common strategic elements as well, then it would certainly make you think twice about colony spam.

In the current system I usually just mark every available planet above 75% quality for colonization and then I close the window and never think about it. Each of those will get a colony ship in turn, and each of those colonies will cost me nothing more than the cost of the initial colony ship.

A colony should COST money at the start until it is well established, rather than instantly being self sufficient. And yes, the disease outbreaks and such would give you incentive to send a medical ship or build medical facilities there.
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Simulation01
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Simulation01 »

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

If a colony took a constant supply of the more common strategic elements as well, then it would certainly make you think twice about colony spam.

In the current system I usually just mark every available planet above 75% quality for colonization and then I close the window and never think about it. Each of those will get a colony ship in turn, and each of those colonies will cost me nothing more than the cost of the initial colony ship.

A colony should COST money at the start until it is well established, rather than instantly being self sufficient. And yes, the disease outbreaks and such would give you incentive to send a medical ship or build medical facilities there.


Indeed.

As for my plague/disease idea....the plague would spread quickly to other planets via commercial vessels if the infected planet(s) are not quarantined. Due to the nature of the private sector trading network...I can foresee that plagues would spread far to quickly to be contained...so a solution would be to make the spread or infection of a commercial ship based on a probability/chance...... there would be a chance that if a commercial ship visited an infected planet planet...it too would be infected and spread the plague/disease to other worlds.

Following the logic of random or environmental plagues ( ie some host organism from a new colony infects your ppl ) I would also like the ability to use plague bombs and or to use spies to spread plagues. Maybe even you could research race specific plagues...say you wanted to rid the universe of the nasty Dhayut Empire....well, there's a plague for that! LOL
"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson
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J HG T
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by J HG T »

Have to partly agree with Elmo3 here. Part of DWs charm for me is the way it handles the territory issue; Deep space is no-mans land and systems are owned by those who controls planets and have military forces there.

IF there will be somekind of territory system I still hope that it would keep the basic DW mechanics pretty much intact.
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Baleur
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Baleur »

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

I think we need a way to claim a planet without actually colonizing it. A warship should be able to create an outpost on any planet ( and type ) to claim it. They would use resources to maintain like a spacestation or something so you wouldn't want to build them everywhere, but it would allow you to lay claim to a planet before colonization and would prevent colonization by another empire.

Maybe....the way another empire could get around this is if they sent a colony ship that also had a troop transport module that had troops with it to take out the host outpost. I obviously want this, but what does everyone else think?

It would kinda nullify the entire slower colonization due to the colonization techs and such.
Sure you wouldnt be able to colonize faster, but planting a flag where the only counter is agression or direct war declarations is almost the same thing.

Thats one of the things that i didnt like about vanilla Galciv2 (before they added racial types and slow colonization tech), the entire early (and midgame on large maps) was just one rushy colony rush. Flag planting or citizen planting, same gameplay effect.
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Shark7
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: J HG T

Have to partly agree with Elmo3 here. Part of DWs charm for me is the way it handles the territory issue; Deep space is no-mans land and systems are owned by those who controls planets and have military forces there.

IF there will be somekind of territory system I still hope that it would keep the basic DW mechanics pretty much intact.

agree, I prefer DW the way it is in terms of 'territory'

Besides 'he who has the most guns owns the land' in DW, as it should be.
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Aures
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Aures »

I think we all agree that making something totally unavailable to another empire via a gameplay mechanic just because you say "this is mine" is not good, but I think we also agree that you should be well within your rights to defend something you have staked a legitimate claim to. Right now if you see another empire's colony ship heading into one of your systems (as determined by the game) and you shoot it you suffer a rep hit (unless you are at war with them). If you see their military forces in your systems you can demand they remove it but if they ignore the warning and you start shooting at them again it is you that suffers a rep hit. Your only option if you want to do something about them is to declare war (which also gives you a rep hit unless you use a sneaky tactic), there needs to be some kind of middle ground. In the real world shooting down an aircraft that has violated restricted airspace and ignored repeated warnings to withdraw is not considered murder. If it belongs to another nation state it is considered an act of aggression (or even war) by the nation the aircraft belongs to, not the nation whose airspace has been violated.

I think we can form a consensus that something isn't quite right with the current system even if we disagree about what kind of change will be needed to fix it. I like the general approach DW takes to not arbitrarily restricting actions but the consequences of some actions need to better incorporate the idea of justified self defense.
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forsaken1111
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by forsaken1111 »

Not to mention you can also use these techniques to fleece the enemy. Spend 2000 to build a mining station in an enemy system, then sell it to them for 100,000+ or trade for technology. Drop a colony and its worth even more to them. I made a LOT of money 'helpfully' colonizing other people's systems and then selling them the colonies.
Aures
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Aures »

Works especially well with planets that are below 50% quality and have no (or no important) resources. For mining bases you can also set up crippled ones that will not extract any resources (eg gas mining station sans luxury extractor on a planet with no gas). I feel such tactics are a bit too cheap to bother with most of the time, but I have trouble denying myself any opportunity the game mechanics provide.
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Simulation01
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Simulation01 »

What about the other idea of being able to blockade uncolonized worlds?  That would be a way to automate the process of stopping colonization as opposed to having to physically watch that system yourself.
"Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days moved Earth and Heaven; that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will." -Tennyson
Aures
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RE: Planet Outposts

Post by Aures »

Interesting, but I'm not sure I like the idea of having to permanently assign military ships to guard some worthless ball of dirt I never want to colonise in one of my systems (or to constantly guard important mining bases from being colonised). As long as there are other options though this could be a nice option to have.
Most of my Empires are too big

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