Rethinking turn 1

[Aussiematto]

Reviving this thread... I have now used my standard Axis opening, almost identical in results (the moves differ sometimes depending on what exactly happens to the Soviet CVs in Turn 1), and got several completely different turn 2s because, as they say, no plan survives contact with the enemy. The challenge is, I think, not to have this or that objective but to weigh up the likelihood of success in competing objectives depending on how the Soviet player responds. In this respect, it's a game... but it does model operational realities to the extent that most military successes come from either a) sticking to the objective when it might seem prudent to change (eg not letting your opponent force you to play their 'game') or b) seizing an unexpected oppportunity which is not a mistake by the enemy so much as a change in the operational situation such that a new, better objective emerges.

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I don't think there will ever be a "set" strategy on the opening. There will always be some variation based on how all the combat goes, interdiction on movement, etc. In addition, players will have different priorities which will affect what forces go where.

This. And I hope there is NEVER a set strategy then the game turns into one gigantic puzzle. I like the amount of dynamics, depth, and variation in the game that allows for vastly different schools of thought on what is the best. This adds dramatically to the replay value. Don't get me wrong, I love the old Panzer General games even if it does boil down to a puzzle but I also classify it under a 'coffee-table' game, one that is quick to play yet fun. This game is not and should never be like that at all. (Can't wait for Panzer Corps to come out soon)

[PeeDeeAitch]

I use various openings depending on what I feel like. I never want to make it just "do this and get that" type of beginning. I have done the "extra PzCorps to Leningrad" or the "Two extra corps to the south" openings, or even the horribly bland "Use what I have where it is and make do" opening. I have found that no matter what I do, the holds, routs, retreat lines, CV end results, all make the opening different.

[sillyflower]

Another well-known strategy game manages to be quite varied even with 2 identical, fixed set-up armies on 64 hexes of clear terrain and single unit IGO/UGO system with fixed combat results.

Why anyone intelligent plays a game like that when they can play WiTE is beyond me. Obviously it's for the dim who can't cope with complex games.

Ok, I haven't been 100% honest above. The other game is played on squares not hexes but that should make it less interesting.....

[PeeDeeAitch]

Pfft, I wouldn't play a game like that unless it had something cool like horse soldiers and perhaps religious leaders. I would add in something to defend, maybe royalty?

[nedcorleone1]

it's for the dim who can't cope with complex games.

Honestly, with complex games such as WitE, I find it difficult for me to play the game, not because I'm any less intelligent, but because I am aware of all the variables to where I overthink everything to the point where I am nearly afraid to actually do anything. Chalk it up to OCD I guess. I need to just power through a few turns on the Grand Campaign (the smaller maps are much easier for me to conquer) to get over it. I don't find it boring... I find it extremely exciting and even... academic.

Wow, today I learned that I would make a horrible battlefield general. [:(]

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

it's for the dim who can't cope with complex games.

Honestly, with complex games such as WitE, I find it difficult for me to play the game, not because I'm any less intelligent, but because I am aware of all the variables to where I overthink everything to the point where I am nearly afraid to actually do anything. Chalk it up to OCD I guess. I need to just power through a few turns on the Grand Campaign (the smaller maps are much easier for me to conquer) to get over it. I don't find it boring... I find it extremely exciting and even... academic.

Wow, today I learned that I would make a horrible battlefield general. [:(]

I sometimes suffer from this, as well. It's called "Analysis Paralysis".

[Mynok]

Yep, sometimes ya just gotta wing it and fling it, hoping all the while someone doesn't turn on the fan.
[:'(]

[PeeDeeAitch]

Read my sig quote from Nappy.

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Read my sig quote from Nappy.

When I know I can take all the time in the world to make a decision (save, walk away, load, etc.) I hardly do anything. Give me a time limit and I know I would have moved all those suckers by now.

Maybe thats what I should do (built in feature request? Just kidding). I think I just solved my own problem.

[Klydon]

I supposed I can now let everyone in on my secret chief of staff that helps me tremendously with decisions.

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I supposed I can now let everyone in on my secret chief of staff that helps me tremendously with decisions.

[:D]

Here's mine. I streamlined the process.

Citation [http://www.kudit.com/desktop/kudit.php? ... e=coinflip]

[Wally Wilson]

My 2 cents is that if you are playing against a Soviet human player, you go to destroy the army. However, a merely decent player won't allow you to deeply encircle him. A pocket at Minsk is more or less inevitable, and possible a smaller one at Lvov. Anymore is a gift. CUt the Soviet lines, slow down the retreat, rout any units you can. Routing units are going to be losing equipment as are destroyed units. 1941 resurrected units draw from the replacement pool. So killing a unit basiclly consumes twice the units equipment. Also, if you don't kill Soviet units they will be on your side of the Moscow defence line. Resurrected units will be on the far side of the Moscow defence zone reading to be used in the Winter Counteroffensive. So keep that in mind.

[larryfulkerson]

No posting on the turn 1 guide since June?  WTF?

[Krec]

go figure

[freeboy]

I was thinking about routed units coming back, wouldn't they be in the same,"future" pocket in turns 2-4 .. I guess I do not see the problem with routing red army forces t1.. its not like they reform far away where they could be protected.. or am I missing something critical?
thanks

[freeboy]

and if I rout and re rout red army troops, seems an easy way to build experience

[Klydon]

A lot depends on where you are routing them and what your plans are.

Granted, routing a pile of units in the south where there are going to be piles of units regardless is not as big of a deal, although routing mountain divisions (which never come back if surrounded and destroyed) and allowing them to escape is not wise.

In the north, especially in the AGN area, a good German turn 1 can leave the Russians with very little or nothing left to move to block further German advances. Speed is of the essence in the north if the Germans are serious about making a stab at Leningrad and the more units the Russians have to rail in to try to slow down the advance just means they get thinner elsewhere and it is not always practical to rail everything to the spot you need it to be at up there.

Besides the destruction of Russian manpower and nailing as much as you can in the armaments department (both you can do in 1941), the other big thing the Germans must look at is removing Russian counters from the game (Can't do that until late 1941 and it becomes what 1942 is all about).

[Tuhhodge]

I am just starting my first '41 Campaign after meticulously noting down my units, formations and assigning SUs etc. I had drawn lots of lovely strategy maps to plan my attack; sending this Corps there or that Army Group here, with a broad aim of capturing Leningrad and Smolensk but specific plans to entrap as many Soviet soldiers as possible.

Then I made the mistake of actually reading one or two Barbarossa books I've had knocking about for years. It turns out that my self-made plans mirror those of the OKH back in 1941. I suppose this is not entirely unexpected given that my plans were mostly dictated by the starting positions of the Axis divisions and the lay of the land. However, I'm loath to re-write history with the same pen because it didn't work 70-odd years ago.

This thread has sent me back to the drawing board. Analysis Paralysis has set in ---- big time!

[Peltonx]

AGN