Whats the pt of national moral?

[Peltonx]

Your telling me one month in germany is not going to up moral?




Refute that [8D]

[stone10]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Moral is one of the key issues that can effect the out come. For the German theres not much one can do once you start digging in to move it up. As the Russian you can do nothing an it goes up.

As Q-Ball points out, it is an incentive not to turtle up. I've commented elsewhere that the Axis starts losing the campaign as soon as it decides to forgo any further major offensives, even using alternate rules for scoring VP's. The Axis get the initiative on Turn 1, and don't lose it until Blizzard, when game mechanics are set in motion to snatch it and give it to the Soviet player. After that, it's completely in the players' hands to determine who's got the initiative.

You made me think hard about the statement I quoted above Pelton

"Initiative" is usually defined in maddingly vague terms. Let me - at the risk of sounding a bit pedantic - recall how this elusive concept is defined (and studied) in the game of Go:

A move that leaves the player an overwhelming follow-up move, and thus forces the opponent to respond, is said to have "sente" (?æŽè), or "initiative"; the opponent has "gote" (ŒãŽè). In most games, the player who keeps sente most of the time will win.

Gote means "succeeding move" (lit: "after hand"), the opposite of sente, meaning "preceding move" (lit: "before hand"). Sente is a term to describe which player has the initiative in the game, and which moves result in taking and holding the initiative. More precisely, as one player attacks, and the other defends in gote, it can be said that they respectively do and do not have the initiative. The situation of having sente is favorable, permitting control of the flow of the game.

Go is a perfectly balanced game, and WitE certainly isn't, it starts imbalanced, with the Axis having abilities out of reach to the Soviet player, and then it slowly gets stacked so that the Soviet position and abilities improve over time. However, the basic concepts of sente and gote, indeed do apply to WitE as they do in any strategy game. You have - quite convincingly - argued that WitE is a numbers game: if some strategy is anti-economic, just don't pursue that strategy. However, I want to argue that it isn't just about numbers.

Note the part I quoted in bold face: the one who has the initiative, is the one who controls the flow of the game. In WitE terms, this basically means controlling the flow of casualties for both sides. If you turtle up, you can affect the flow of the game by retreating - that is, by losing - or by counterattacking the strongest enemy concentration, his spearheads - "Unsound!" yells the Armchair General, "That's the way things are", counters dryly the commander in the field. If one doesn't turtle up, then it is possible to affect the flow of the game by initiating offensive operations in a place and time of your choice, by switching axis of attack and throwing out of balance your opponent, and, of course, calling off offensives when there is little more to gain from them.

Which of the two strategies looks more palatable?

I think the Axis has the tools to control - directly or indirectly - the flow of the campaign well into 1943. The problem we have is that there isn't clear agreement on what these tools precisely consist of (or if they even exist) and how to best use them ("a fool with a tool, is still a fool").

The bottom line is: that the Soviet position is improved over time even by doing nothing (that's true). But the only way the Soviet player gets that is that the Axis does "nothing" as in "nothing of an offensive nature".

darn, you can type Japanese on Matrix forum? Why I can't type in Chinese.

By the way, although I haven't play Go for a long time, I do not think the concept of Go apply to WITE. In Go, you really have to go for the best move, the most economic one. Otherwise, the initiative can shift easily because your move is relatively unimportant compare to your opponent's. On the contrary, the Axis have the initiative in the 41 summer no matter what. There're valueable objects everywhere. The only thing the Soviets can do is to respond to Axis attack or run in 41.

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Your telling me one month in germany is not going to up moral?




Refute that [8D]

Yeah, I would stay at home and slept with beautiful girls rather than went to Russia.

[Peltonx]

heheheh

[ComradeP]

I'd say HQ build-up is still overpowered, and after having seen how a number of people, particularly you, abuse the supply system, I'd be in favour of simply removing it from the game.

You still haven't provided an actual argument as to why German national morale is 50 in 1941/1942, a theory which is completely false, but that won't stop you from repeating it ad infinitum.

[Peltonx]

Wow its clear very very clear.

Its another rule stacked agaist the German and a plus for Russians.

1. German units do not recover moral resting.
2. Russian units do recover moral resting.

Its black and white.

Sure keep saying its not broken when it is.

You 100% can't refute the fact.

That is 100% how it works in game.

The German nation moral level in game is 50. That is 100% how its is designed.

A HUGE + for Russian player and a HUGE - for German.

This is the design as BG said, they are tring to for the German to attack. When they should be tring to get the Russians to do something then chicken little it during 41.

You can keep sticking your head in the sand defending the huge play imbalance as is normal around here.

Its should be a huge red flag that of the 1000's of games started none are getting into 44 and its been a yr and only a handfull in 43 even.

P refute and not change subject.

1. German units do not recover moral resting. Therefor the are capped at 50. There is nothing to attack come late 42 so therefor there is no way to increase moral.
2. Russian units do recover moral resting, therefor there moral increases to there nation moral level.

Its another flying pig rule.

Its ok for Russian to recover moral resting and not for Germans to recover moral resting.

Yes sure that 100% not imbalanced.

Pelton

[KamilS]

Morale issue:


Clearly there is practically no chance for Germans to regain their morale through waiting. It remain to be seen if increased chance of morale gain through combat makes the difference.


To be honest I think it won't be possible to judge this change properly - Soviet have no reason to defend in '41 (it is easy to withdrawn everything if player sensibly ignores HVy, Vehicles, Su 2 factories and gets only 1 point of tanks producing centres. And there are no other reasons to fight for territory during German offensive. (it is same case with blizzard offensive - just fall back and everything will be fine)

All this factors makes Soviet army very, very strong so German recovery is very doubtful. If I add great rail capacity I imagine that any local success will be quickly contained.


It is simplification, but it is general pattern at the moment.

[Peltonx]

Thanks for imput Kamil. It is what it is and the only question is will the devs do anything about it?

I thk if they did not let the russian player build what they wanted it be a huge help.

Historically the russian wasted allot of production for several yrs tring to figure out what worked.

But as the game is now the russian player builds just what they need for yr 41, then 42 then 43 then 44 then 45. Whiile the German is stuck using 50% of his production on usless stuff'

Pelton

[ComradeP]

You 100% can't refute the fact.

I don't need to refute something, you need to prove it. Everything, from the documentation to how it actually works in the game disagrees with your point. There isn't a single year where German morale is 50. Not one. That will, as before, not stop you from yelling it, but I'm not the one sticking my head in the sand here.

You post a list of assumptions, often without any facts or logical argumentation supporting it and then you run of to post the next list of assumptions.

There is no difference between how German or Soviet units recover/gain morale through resting. In fact, Axis units are more likely to gain morale through resting than Soviet units because their support/supply situation is generally (a lot) better.

There is no evidence supporting your case that the Germans are somehow gaining fewer morale than the Soviets through resting.

Note that you're specifically talking about "resting" (so the possible increase to 75) so I'm only talking about that too, not any other kind of morale gain.

You're, as usual, mixing up arguments into one single argument even though the arguments can't be mixed. You're saying that few good attacks can be made in 1942, so German national morale is 50. The first has absolutely nothing to do with the second, or vice versa.

Sure, the Soviets being able to create a "slim and efficient" Red Army instead of a large, but still not too efficient colossus is also something I'm not entirely happy with, but it again has nothing to do with national morale.

If you would yell less, and debate more, the chance that people will take you seriously increases exponentially. Currently, we have to fish the one or two real arguments out of the big ranting posts.

[KamilS]

ComradePT

There is no evidence supporting your case that the Germans are somehow gaining fewer morale than the Soviets through resting.

Note that you're specifically talking about "resting" (so the possible increase to 75) so I'm only talking about that too, not any other kind of morale gain.

You're, as usual, mixing up arguments into one single argument even though the arguments can't be mixed. You're saying that few good attacks can be made in 1942, so German national morale is 50. The first has absolutely nothing to do with the second, or vice versa.

I disagree with You, and I am not only one to notice few facts. Pelton is overreacting a bit, but I think he is right in that case - supportive opinion below

Q-Ball


Maybe what Pelton is trying to say is this:

On Paper, the average Morale Gap (difference in National Morale) bw Soviets and Germans is around 30 in the early game, give or take (75/70 vs. a sliding scale of 50-40).

Over time, the actual morale gap between Germans and Soviets, and for that matter between Germans and their own low-morale Allies, is much less than that.

This is because almost any unit can get into the mid-50s in Morale/Experience, simply by resting, regardless of National Morale. This means that Romanian, Hungarian, Italian, and Soviet units can rountinely EXCEED their own national morale by 15 points or so, simply by resting. Because the Soviets have alot of units, they should easily be able to "park" a number of units, rotate, and raise the average morale into the 50s.

The Germans, on the other hand, if they are in the 60s in Morale after Blizzard, don't really gain it back. There is a die roll to make Morale gains, but you have to get very lucky to gain even a point through rest, once you are in the 60s. The Germans will never exceed their National Morale on rest alone, so in 1942 70 is the ceiling no matter when, except through combat.

So, though the "Paper" gap in September of 1942 is 30 points, the actual gap between Wehrmacht infantry, and Soviet/Axis Ally infantry, is more like 10 points.

I think this is what he is trying to say.

National Morale would be more meaningful if there was a "push" and "pull" toward the National Morale figure. Meaning, low-morale units were much less capable of gaining morale simply by sitting, and units with high national morale would predicably get there if they are out of combat, maybe for sure gaining a point a turn until the National Morale is reached.

Such a change would clearly favor the Germans in 1942, so that would have to be intended

[ComradeP]

If he's talking about what Q-Ball is talking about in the post you quoted, he should say that.

Currently, he's saying that German national morale is 50 at some point in the game, which is false no matter how you like to spin it.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: stone10

darn, you can type Japanese on Matrix forum? Why I can't type in Chinese.

By the way, although I haven't play Go for a long time, I do not think the concept of Go apply to WITE. In Go, you really have to go for the best move, the most economic one. Otherwise, the initiative can shift easily because your move is relatively unimportant compare to your opponent's. On the contrary, the Axis have the initiative in the 41 summer no matter what. There're valueable objects everywhere. The only thing the Soviets can do is to respond to Axis attack or run in 41.

Well, I can certainly paste Japanese text, not sure about writing it

Stone, I made precisely that point on my post. And that after March 1942 the game hasn't anything to say about who gets the initiative, but the players themselves

[BletchleyGeek]

This is because almost any unit can get into the mid-50s in Morale/Experience, simply by resting, regardless of National Morale. This means that Romanian, Hungarian, Italian, and Soviet units can rountinely EXCEED their own national morale by 15 points or so, simply by resting. Because the Soviets have alot of units, they should easily be able to "park" a number of units, rotate, and raise the average morale into the 50s.

The Germans, on the other hand, if they are in the 60s in Morale after Blizzard, don't really gain it back. There is a die roll to make Morale gains, but you have to get very lucky to gain even a point through rest, once you are in the 60s. The Germans will never exceed their National Morale on rest alone, so in 1942 70 is the ceiling no matter when, except through combat.

So, though the "Paper" gap in September of 1942 is 30 points, the actual gap between Wehrmacht infantry, and Soviet/Axis Ally infantry, is more like 10 points.

Hmmm, and how can a unit get over its National Morale without winning battles? I can't find that on the rules or the patch notes.

Soviet NM is 40 from January 42 to September 42, 44 by the end of the year. So it's more like 20 points. People can "use" Shock Armies to narrow this gap to 15 points. And yes, there can be Soviet units above 40, or 50 or 60 (by combat which is RARE as a green dog, "Siberian" and Transcaucasus divisions), but these are something like less than 5% of the Red Army OOB.

Obviously this only applies to the infantry, which is NOT the main offensive asset of the Axis. Motorized Axis divisions will be for a long time light years away from Soviet units. Of course, premium offensive assets used in the defense are little more than glorified diggers...

[ComradeP]

Hmmm, and how can a unit get over its National Morale without winning battles? I can't find that on the rules or the patch notes.

Theoretically through resting if the units morale is 75 or lower and refitting if it's lower than 50, but the increases from resting are much smaller/much more rare than some here seem to think.

For the Axis, you can fairly easily watch the process by checking Hungarian (or Italian) morale in a 1941-1945 campaign. By the time the first Hungarians unfreeze and get to the front, after about a year, they tend to have gained about 2 to 4 morale points through resting, after a year. As they're sitting in Hungary, they're in good supply and are thus more likely to gain morale.

I'm extremely sceptical about what some people say/imply, namely that the Soviets would suddenly get much more morale than that from resting. I have seen no proof supporting that theory, and there certainly isn't some hard coded bonus for the Soviets. Transcausus Front units don't suddenly have morale in the 60's by the time they activate.

[carlkay58]

I am currently playing a 1.05 game vs Axis AI. A newly rebuilt Soviet division starts at about 30 to 35 morale - it seems to vary by unit. If I put the unit into Refit mode AND keep it more than 10 hexes from any Axis units - it will increase its morale by about 3 per turn up to the National Morale level. It will - occasionally (read that as rarely) increase beyond the National Morale by a point or two - although that may be because it reached a National Morale level BEFORE it was reduced by one by going to the next month. If I have the units within the 10 hexes - I am lucky if they regain any morale above the starting levels - and if they do they increase by only one or two every three or four turns. My first army that was refitting about 7 hexes behind the front lines to defend Moscow still has an average morale of 40 - and this is after 12 turns of sitting still.

Having read Pelton's contention, I went to another save file from a game where I was the Axis player in 1.04. Loaded the game from right before the blizzards end in 42. Let the game go forward from there - as long as I pulled the Axis troops back more than 10 hexes from the frontline, they recovered just as quickly as the Soviets did in my other game. So I don't see where this is a problem other than the Soviets tend to be able to pull an army or two back out of the line for refitting and recovery much easier than the Axis do.

[Peltonx]

I played 16+ 41 -45 games and none of them recover moral faster thenl 2% tops.

I had 38 units in germany an only 4 pts were gained in 4 turns. 2 units were below 50 morale

German nation moral is 50, it just does not go up.

ComradeP go cry to JB, hes the one that pointed out 9.1.1 not me

Russian moral goes up to national moral and German does not.

That is how it is designed end of story beleive whatever fairytale you want to tell yourself. I go with 2 by 3

Pelton

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
I'm extremely sceptical about what some people say/imply, namely that the Soviets would suddenly get much more morale than that from resting. I have seen no proof supporting that theory, and there certainly isn't some hard coded bonus for the Soviets. Transcausus Front units don't suddenly have morale in the 60's by the time they activate.

No, they just have kept the Morale they had from June 22nd (which was about 50).

[ComradeP]

Gaining national morale becomes more difficult through resting when your units are closer to national morale. The Soviets can more easily gain morale than the Germans, but that's not due to them getting some bonus due to resting, but because they can both refit and rest to get to ~45-50. As soon as Soviet national morale becomes 60 (and thus 75-80 for Guards units), they'll face the same problem as the Germans. However, getting a unit to its national morale through combat is often not that difficult for the Germans in 1941-1942 and for the Soviets in later years.

[randallw]

If resting German units, far from the front, are not getting past 50 morale it suggests a programming error.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: randallw

If resting German units, far from the front, are not getting past 50 morale it suggests a programming error.

But they are getting past 50 morale. It's just not as fast as people expect them to. It's a fairly slow process and the speed at which they gain morale is inversely proportional to the current unit morale.

[randallw]

I think he suggested some units are not reaching 50 morale.