Rhine or Ruin (no glvaca)

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

From my play experience, the real danger of this kind of broad pull-back in the south and center(ish) is that it gives the Soviet time to set up giant reserve belts that really force problems on the German.

I haven't exactly beaten that yet.

But I have learned that when you're faced with the broad pullback across a wide north-south line, one of the optimization tools Germany must take is to focus on pursuing in narrow bands rather than advancing in breadth across the whole front. Broad advances mean more fatigue across the army. Narrow advances mean fewer MP expenditures for un-converted hexes. You use a few units to flip territory, the infantry moves at 1 MP a hex, and you can rest panzers (rotating them) for when you finally catch up to the line.

This tactic that I see being used herein creates the best Soviet defense around the latter summer (at least that I've played against). I think it's quite problematic, the NATO 1986 Doctrine is a super-tightly controlled scoot eastward.

Every once on a while there is a mini-patch that totally changes the game wildly swinging in favor of one side or the other.

What once was is no more.

The main reason I am playing russian side and probably MT reason is we are looking for a weakness to exploit if there is any all things being equal

Pelton

[gingerbread]

1 million troops will consume roughly 5000 points of supply per turn (more if they fight) and it takes 10 HI to produce 5000 points.

It's fully possible to ship out say 5 groups of 4 HI to enable a larger army than what is the usual limit. The trick is to preserve enough of the starting army and recruiting locations to get to that size.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

From my play experience, the real danger of this kind of broad pull-back in the south and center(ish) is that it gives the Soviet time to set up giant reserve belts that really force problems on the German.

I haven't exactly beaten that yet.

But I have learned that when you're faced with the broad pullback across a wide north-south line, one of the optimization tools Germany must take is to focus on pursuing in narrow bands rather than advancing in breadth across the whole front. Broad advances mean more fatigue across the army. Narrow advances mean fewer MP expenditures for un-converted hexes. You use a few units to flip territory, the infantry moves at 1 MP a hex, and you can rest panzers (rotating them) for when you finally catch up to the line.

This tactic that I see being used herein creates the best Soviet defense around the latter summer (at least that I've played against). I think it's quite problematic, the NATO 1986 Doctrine is a super-tightly controlled scoot eastward.

I'm sorry, Helio, the NATO Doctine that you like to bring up is largely irrelevant. So the Red Army can shift a lot of divisions around between armies in 1941. The result hardly holds any significance. Even Zhukov will get his butt kicked when commanding a neatly organized and "optimal" field army if it is directly in the path of a panzer push. In 1942 when it comes to admin points the Soviet player constantly lives hand to mouth once his divisions need to be replaced and corps created.

Consider the Soviet position at the end of a relatively successful German '42 Summer offensive.

Replace 90 rifle divisions = 900AP = 15 weeks of APs
Build 24 tank corps = 480AP = 9 weeks of APs
Build 6 rifle corps = 120AP = 2 weeks of APs
Any new army HQ = 25hp = .4 week of AP
Any mech corps = 35 hp (3 motor/mech brigades plus corps build cost)
30 artillery divisions = 300AP = 5 weeks of AP

That's over 7 months worth even without the new army HQs and you better hope as Soviet that you don't lose many of those precious 20hp corps units. And to have all this in place in early 1943 is a tall order. You are in such a scenario having to start this build process in May-June 1942.

Want to add an SU to a corps? That's 2AP each, one to buy it at the army or STAVKA and another to assign it to the corps.
Then there's the General-Major Stepan Kalinin lovefest. This guy apparently has naughty pictures of an influential member of the Politburo because the AI constantly picks him to command a newly raised army or replacing a leader gone KIA or replaced. His stats are 3/4/4/5 - 2/5/5/1. The guy really needs to be put in a gulag but the AI loves him. So you have to plan on spending APs usually more than once to get rid of him. And of course you will spend APs to change any new leadrers out that you want.

Aircraft upgrades are also 1AP each, but the AI only replaces those units at under half strength. That generally means waiting until the pool for a particular model runs dry. Meanwhile, where do the most modern planes go? To the new air units the AI raises. With experience in the upper 30's they're more a menace to their own people and these FBs seldom shoot down planes. I'm literally disbanding all newly formed fighter and fighter bomber units to keep modern planes in the pool that I can then spend APs on to redistribute these to the best units.

So yes, maybe the Soviets get too many APs in the narrow focus of what happens in 1941, but when you see the related AP expenses into 1942 and beyond, the same AP numbers appear almost necessary.

[HITMAN202]

Going back to the game, I think Flavius is spot on about the best Axis strategy for AGN/AGC during the first 6 turns .... take Leningrad (really isolate the city) as quickly as possible with the help of 4 PZ divisions from north AGC and then send the whole kit and kabooble to hit Moscow.

Looking at the turn 2 map, glvaca apparently failed on the first turn to link AGN/AGC at the Zeimena River and essentially prevented any coordination between the two army groups. Look at Michael T.'s opening move (or more recently Saper222's against Kamil) and how the two groups were linked (also see how much territory was converted north of Minsk and how a really strong Inf Div was isolated at x63,y47.)

Also it seems that glvaca did not convert much territory north of the Daugava on turn 2 and Michael T. was able to establish a neat screen of 5 Sec units to delay the German capture of Pskov.

[Peltonx]

The Russian player should not have any corps built until January 43.

Divisions are more then enough to slow down tanks in 42.

I have pocketed 155 units of which 15 were corp during 42 and the Russian player had many many corps by the end of January 43. I also had killed 4 million by December 41.

I have seen 8 million man armys by June 42 that I cut though like butter and 7.3 million men armys that I never was able to punch through.

I beleive that infantry corp in 42 water down the red army. Your better off with less full strength units and AP/manpower in the bank until January 43.

[M60A3TTS]

If you want to build another 12 rifle divisions in lieu of the 6 rifle corps in 1942, then fine. It doesn't change the overall situation in any meaningful way given the length of the front and # of units.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The Russian player should not have any corps built until January 43.

Divisions are more then enough to slow down tanks in 42.

I have pocketed 155 units of which 15 were corp during 42 and the Russian player had many many corps by the end of January 43. I also had killed 4 million by December 41.

I have seen 8 million man armys by June 42 that I cut though like butter and 7.3 million men armys that I never was able to punch through.

I beleive that infantry corp in 42 water down the red army. Your better off with less full strength units and AP/manpower in the bank until January 43.

I assume the 7.3 million man army you are referring to was Kamil's. If you refer back to your AAR and look at the screenshot of the front, he clearly has HQs sitting on forts to prevent decay. That no longer works as you know from first-hand experience. [;)]

And you were through the Level 3 forts before you called a halt. Under todays rules, you likely get through.

And you'll also note he did have rifle corps built. [:)]

[Peltonx]

I guess the proof is in the game play and we have to see how MT and my games play out as Russians and mine as Germans under the latest nerf to hit German army.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The Russian player should not have any corps built until January 43.

Divisions are more then enough to slow down tanks in 42.

I have pocketed 155 units of which 15 were corp during 42 and the Russian player had many many corps by the end of January 43. I also had killed 4 million by December 41.

I have seen 8 million man armys by June 42 that I cut though like butter and 7.3 million men armys that I never was able to punch through.

I beleive that infantry corp in 42 water down the red army. Your better off with less full strength units and AP/manpower in the bank until January 43.

I assume the 7.3 million man army you are referring to was Kamil's. If you refer back to your AAR and look at the screenshot of the front, he clearly has HQs sitting on forts to prevent decay. That no longer works as you know from first-hand experience. [;)]

And you were through the Level 3 forts before you called a halt. Under todays rules, you likely get through.

And you'll also note he did have rifle corps built. [:)]

Point taken:

1 loss vs Hoooper under the old 1v1=2v1
1 loss vs Kamil under old fort rules and some of 1v1=2v1

[Troy6677]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's essential to make a fight out of Leningrad in every game, even if it falls, keeping the Axis busy there until mud helps Moscow. But if the Axis really wants it, they are probably going to get it. It really depends how much they reinforce AGN. If AGN is just stock, then it is possible to hold on to Leningrad if the Soviet pours a lot of stuff there.

If the Axis doesn't reinforce AGN, this is worst of all worlds for him. Leningrad may not fall and PG4 is stuck up there for the whole summer without accomplishing its objective, and in turn never gets a chance to hit Moscow. That is why, imo, the Axis ought to massively reinforce AGN every time. Moscow can wait until August. Logistics alone will prevent a big push in the center until then. AGC has to push the rails past Smolensk. You can still get two full clear months in the center after knocking out Leningrad.

Micheal is doing pretty much what I do: heavy on the north (even trying to stop the Finns cold, which is something everybody ought to do), then the center, and delaying in the south. But I think he's running away too fast in the south and could have problems with factory evacuations down the line. I don't see a reason to let the Axis cross the Dnepr before turn 6.

He doesn't have diggers yet on the Neva, that's a possible error.

Flaviusx is quite correct here. I have found against a good Russian defense such as the one the Michael T has set up the German player must reinforce the north to have any chance of taking Leningrad. So for me I now send every German unit that arrives as a reinforcement up North otherwise no taking Leningrad and no linking up with the Finns and that hurts your first blizzard defenses.

Mark

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The Russian player should not have any corps built until January 43.

Historically, the Russians should have 25 Rifle Corps by Jan 1st, 1943.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

From my play experience, the real danger of this kind of broad pull-back in the south and center(ish) is that it gives the Soviet time to set up giant reserve belts that really force problems on the German.

I haven't exactly beaten that yet.

But I have learned that when you're faced with the broad pullback across a wide north-south line, one of the optimization tools Germany must take is to focus on pursuing in narrow bands rather than advancing in breadth across the whole front. Broad advances mean more fatigue across the army. Narrow advances mean fewer MP expenditures for un-converted hexes. You use a few units to flip territory, the infantry moves at 1 MP a hex, and you can rest panzers (rotating them) for when you finally catch up to the line.

This tactic that I see being used herein creates the best Soviet defense around the latter summer (at least that I've played against). I think it's quite problematic, the NATO 1986 Doctrine is a super-tightly controlled scoot eastward.

I'm sorry, Helio, the NATO Doctine that you like to bring up is largely irrelevant. So the Red Army can shift a lot of divisions around between armies in 1941. The result hardly holds any significance. Even Zhukov will get his butt kicked when commanding a neatly organized and "optimal" field army if it is directly in the path of a panzer push. In 1942 when it comes to admin points the Soviet player constantly lives hand to mouth once his divisions need to be replaced and corps created.

Consider the Soviet position at the end of a relatively successful German '42 Summer offensive.

Replace 90 rifle divisions = 900AP = 15 weeks of APs
Build 24 tank corps = 480AP = 9 weeks of APs
Build 6 rifle corps = 120AP = 2 weeks of APs
Any new army HQ = 25hp = .4 week of AP
Any mech corps = 35 hp (3 motor/mech brigades plus corps build cost)
30 artillery divisions = 300AP = 5 weeks of AP

That's over 7 months worth even without the new army HQs and you better hope as Soviet that you don't lose many of those precious 20hp corps units. And to have all this in place in early 1943 is a tall order. You are in such a scenario having to start this build process in May-June 1942.

Want to add an SU to a corps? That's 2AP each, one to buy it at the army or STAVKA and another to assign it to the corps.
Then there's the General-Major Stepan Kalinin lovefest. This guy apparently has naughty pictures of an influential member of the Politburo because the AI constantly picks him to command a newly raised army or replacing a leader gone KIA or replaced. His stats are 3/4/4/5 - 2/5/5/1. The guy really needs to be put in a gulag but the AI loves him. So you have to plan on spending APs usually more than once to get rid of him. And of course you will spend APs to change any new leadrers out that you want.

Aircraft upgrades are also 1AP each, but the AI only replaces those units at under half strength. That generally means waiting until the pool for a particular model runs dry. Meanwhile, where do the most modern planes go? To the new air units the AI raises. With experience in the upper 30's they're more a menace to their own people and these FBs seldom shoot down planes. I'm literally disbanding all newly formed fighter and fighter bomber units to keep modern planes in the pool that I can then spend APs on to redistribute these to the best units.

So yes, maybe the Soviets get too many APs in the narrow focus of what happens in 1941, but when you see the related AP expenses into 1942 and beyond, the same AP numbers appear almost necessary.

I believe you are mixing my metaphors in my game design complaints.
"Nato 1986 Defense" refers to the seemless use of maximal ZOC density to deny the Germans as much maneuver potential as possible.

My AP arguments are collectively known as "the Superiority of Soviet C&C Relative to both Germany in game and Russia in history."(trademark) [;)]

I don't really mind the former (it's the shell ZOC problem I object to) because both players will rely on it. I don't care too much about the latter; I just want Germany to have the same cost values or better than the Soviet (so Germany can do more administratively to optimize its game). Just as with the victory conditions in game, the Soviet admin point scale was thrown in and not really ever balanced around anything other than unit creation (everything else was discounted to almost nil for the Soviets, creating a heavy competitive advantage).

But I am trying hard not to divert an AAR discussion to anything other than the game at hand, I wanted to clarify.

[Michael T]

Just incase there is any doubt, I intend to win the game.

[Michael T]

You might temp the Axis to do the extended right hook to Onega

Things like the Onega move are just not feasible anymore. At least not at this point in the game. To do an Onega move you need gassed up Mech units and associated HQ's with lots of fuel as well. The HQBU nerf makes it very difficult to maintain any drive beyond 20mp from a railhead. You might make a deep penetration but you will then be stuck out in no mans land without any gas, amongst a swarm of angry little bees. You might just pull it off in the south with the entire Luftwaffe acting as fuel bearers but not in the rugged area's east of Leningrad. Not with competent Soviet play anyways.

[Seminole]

The Russian player should not have any corps built until January 43.
Divisions are more then enough to slow down tanks in 42

I wouldn't build any regular rifle corps until they're cheaper ('43), but Gds rifle corps are a different animal. The morale (and thereby exp.) difference makes them more than speed bumps. They can actually hit back and truly anchor points in the line. Since APs have a max, you'll probably find it worthwhile spend some in this direction during '42 (certainly more worthwhile than burning hundreds and hundreds of APs on fortified regions).

[Flaviusx]

Even guards rifle corps should be built in very limited numbers in 1942. No more than a half dozen or so. You really need divisions in 1942, they are better for defensive purposes, and the Soviet is also strapped for APs anyways.

[Michael T]

End Soviet T6

The invaders have struck a strong blow straight at Leningrad. It will most likely be cut off in 1 or 2 more turns. But I will make him fight for it.

In the Centre he has surged toward Rzhev/Torzhok. A deflection from Moscow and Tula. This is an error in my view. As it totally removes the threat from my centre. I don't have to defend it at all. My lines can remain compressed. If he had struck south and threatened Tula my lines would have been much lengthened and thinned. I hope he continues on this northern axis as even if he went on to Onega it would mean his Mech units would be stuck up there for the rest of the summer. I suspect he will turn back towards a more direct easterly attack on Moscow. But please let him keep going North

In the south he has split his Mech units in to two groups. One down near the Crimea and the other is resting/HQBU at Kremenchug. It looks as though a surge is planned with the Kremenchug group on T7, most likely toward Kharkov I suspect as there is virtually nothing left in D/Z towns.

I think in AGC, where he has just one Mech group you need two. Even if one is much weaker. You need to keep pressure across a greater width of the front to facilitate penetration. One drive in AGC is easier to stem than two.

Overall I am very happy with proceedings to date. Leningrad is my only concern at this point. I had hoped the forces deployed there would have had more of an impact. He has the stock Mech forces there plus one extra Pz XX. But it still looks like it will fall by ~T10 /11 . I will try to buy more time. With the far north flank secure, even if Leningrad falls the front won't collapse due to Finnish pressure from the Svir. He will need to keep pushing or a line will form along the Volkov, unless his AGC northern thrust unhinges it all. But I would welcome that. I would gladly sacrifice many of those troops if it meant the bulk of the AGN/AGC Mech units were stuck up there for the summer.

On a brighter note my loses so far have been very light. Only just passing 1 million this turn. And still over 900K in the arm pool.

I have done some rough calcs on the number of HI I need to have going in to and beyond 1943. The ceiling on supplies produced is Resources. The SU has 196 Resource Centres (RC). They can expect to lose around 40-45. So assuming they lose 45 that leaves say 150. So that’s 150,000 resource points per turn. That’s the maximum amount of supplies that can be produced assuming the loss of around 45 RC. The HI multiplier in 1943 is 1.55. So as it takes a 1:1 ratio for supply production from RC/HI I need to produce 150,000 HI points. That’s 150,000/500/1.55 = ~190 HI. So if I save around 190 HI it will give me the maximum possible amount of supply in 1943. Right now I have 211. So not a lot of leeway left. But from what I have seen from other AAR's the Soviets end with 1000's upon 1000's of unused AFV's and A/C in 43/44. So if supplies become a problem I can always wind back production of AFV and A/C so that more supplies are used for ammo/supply.

Example
The SU might be producing 280 T34 M42's each turn in 1943. If we have stacks in pools we might decide to downgrade our production to say 140 tanks per turn. What would that save us?

Build cost of 140 T34's in supply points = 377*140/10 = 5278

How many HI centres would it take to produce 5278 supply points in 1943?
5278/500/1.55 = 6.8

Cutting back production on superfluous war material can potentially save ballpark 15 to 20 HI centres for supply production assuming you have a surplus of stocks. And as Flavious as mentioned elsewhere things like U2’s or whatever can be eliminated.

A question for anyone who may know.
What does the value in parentheses represent in the Production screen for "Supply Stores:"
Eg it might be something like "Supply Stores: 650690 (353758)"
With Resource Stores the parentheses number represents what was consumed that turn, the number I am asking about definitely does not represent Supplies consumed.

Just got Glenn’s T7. No disasters. He surged at Kharkov and consolidated his gains around Rzhev and Leningrad. Leningrad still has a land bridge to the east.

[M60A3TTS]

The parentheses in this case represents the value to reach 100%.

Supply stores are total amount of supply in storage.

[Seminole]

The invaders have struck a strong blow straight at Leningrad. It will most likely be cut off in 1 or 2 more turns. But I will make him fight for it.

I like to start fortifying Leningrad's 'back door' on turn 1. I find a handy div. with good construction value and stick it in there immediately. It can't make as big a difference anywhere else in the sector at that stage anyway. If you hold Leningrad on the Neva river you'll find the attrition through the winter pretty atrocious. Merging brigades into your front line divisions (brigades are easier to ship over there) is the only way to keep up your strength. If I'm not mistaken you won't be allowed to merge naval brigades, so keep that in mind.

Will you show what's happening on the Janisjarvi Line? Curious how you've decided to reinforce 7th Ind. Army (air groups, reserves, etc). You might want to put your best Army general in there too. It's upsetting to build a nice line and see your CV squandered by poor rolls.

You fell back very rapidly in the south, what factories did you decide to leave behind?

[notenome]

Yeah, level 0 fort in Pavlovo this late in the game is bad news.