No fleet, no problem...

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Capt. Harlock
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Capt. Harlock »

I've never seen the USN and its transport fleet as badly damaged as I found them in this game.

From your previous post, I'm assuming that most of the transports are damaged rather than sunk. Have you an estimate of how much yard time your fleet is going to need?
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Galahad78
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Galahad78 »

Glad to see you back, Nemo.
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Nemo121
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Nemo121 »

Harlock,

Would 'twere so. No, the APs and xAPs are almost all sunk and a good portion of the xAKs are sunk also. Someone should ask Damian for an account of the losses in his thread since he has Tracker. It'd take too long to count the hundreds of xAKs lost. My point was that I've never seen a transport fleet so damaged ( through the sinking of so many ships ) at this stage of the war.


So, August 21st.

I sent a Cruiser TF into Carnarvon since I thought Damian might be trying to use his CVs to cover the extraction of troops. They found nothing and were hit the next day by Kates flying from CVs about 200 miles off the Australian coast. So, I'm tentatively identifying the CV TF off Oz as comprising CVLs and maybe some CVEs due to the lack of Vals.

Elsewhere KB is STILL hanging around Attu. I'm going to begin flying reinforcements into Attu itself now as he is obviously looking at invading it and the surrounding islands. One couldn't justify the commitment of KB to this area for this long otherwise.

In other news 60 Zeroes swept Shumishiri-Jima and faced approximately 30 Allied fighters ( mostly P-40Es ). I believe Japanese losses exceeded Allied losses which is good to see. I'll rotate another squadron in to replace the P40-E unit once Attu island opens for business again.


Elsewhere: China should be ready to see a relatively significant land campaign open up in 2 to 3 days. Before that I plan to push the Japanese out of Myitkina and then at the turn of the month I'll land at Ramree.

The landings at Ramree will probably coincide with the Japanese attempt to invade the Aleutians/Attu island which should make for a few exciting days.

When I get the orders turn I'll post a map of Burma highlighting proposed landing sites, OMG objectives etc and the predicted IJA defensive line along the river to which, I believe, they will withdraw if the OMG is successful.

In other news: You know the coast from Rangoon down to northern Malaysia really does bear a striking resemblance to the norwegian coast.
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Nemo121
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Nemo121 »

I got curious so here's a full accounting of my ship losses.

Total Allied ships lost: 543.
Total IJN ships lost: 60

Sunk Allied ships vs left ( in brackets )
4 CVs (2)
1 CVL (0)
0 CVE (2)
5 BBs (10 incl 6 USN)
11 CAs (10, incl 8 USN)
19 CLs (11 incl 8 USN)
2 CLAAs (3 incl 2 USN)
63 DDs ( 86 incl 40 USN)
1 DE (1)
3 APD (4 USN)
82 xAP ( 92 incl approx 20 USN )
22 AP ( 4, none USN )
39 xAKL
94 xAK
2 AKV (3 AKV, none USN)
6 AK ( 10 AK all USN)
9 AO ( 15 incl 7 USN)
19 TK ( 74 incl 20 USN)
5 SS
5 CM (5 all in India)
7 DM ( 1 USN)
9 DMS (4 USN)

So, basically, the USN ability to conduct amphibious landings with infantry is reduced by over 80%. Right now I can land a bit over 1 division of troops amphibiously using xAPs and APs in the eastern pacific. I have about 40 DDs which is insufficient to provide escorts for the BBs, CA TFs, CV TFs and for surface action groups. The losses in CMs, DMs ( about 90%) and DMS ( over 70% ) are particularly grievous and, as can be seen, the tankers and AOs have also taken a massive beating. Losses of xAKs are well over 200, I didn't bother counting them.

What's left is sufficient but the problem is that about 2/3rds of the tankers, 3/4 of the xAPs and a similar portion of the xAKs are in Oz or India where they simply aren't of any use to the US forces. I can fix this given three months to sail them around Africa and south America into the Pacific but during those three months I have 4 divisions of troops trapped in the north, no garrisons in most of the Central and Southern Pacific island bases and a very limited ability to rectify either situation with the troops in hand.

Ah well, I wanted a challenge, I shouldn't complain that I've got one [8D]

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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Wirraway_Ace »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121


In China I'm gathering more and more force for my schwerpunkt. It looks like I might be able to mass about 3,000 AV in open terrain vs 7 IJA units. I'm hopeful that this will allow me to break those units and create a gap in his lines.
Nemo,

I just wanted to give you a hard time for using "schwerpunkt". How would describe the planned operations within the rubric of Deep Battle. :-)
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LoBaron
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by LoBaron »

Love the AAR title! Wreck some, Nemo!
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witpqs
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by witpqs »

Someone should ask Damian for an account of the losses in his thread since he has Tracker. It'd take too long to count the hundreds of xAKs lost.
Sorry - why is it you don't have Tracker?
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Nemo121
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Nemo121 »

Wirraway_Ace,
LOL! Yeah, Triandafilov is turning in his grave as we speak ;-). What can I say, I'm just the craaazzzzyyy sort of guy who likes to mix and match my nomenclature [:D]


witpqs,
Well, it is a philosophical issue really. I think Tracker is an excellent tool for presenting data as is the sunk ships tool and various other utilities. However I believe that since the tactical is subordinate to the operational and the operational to the strategic the KEY layer to keep an eye on is the strategic layer (or national policy objective layer if you have a meta-narrative in which that layer is active ). I don't believe in getting down into the nitty gritty. E.g. I don't have any idea about the main gun layouts of USN CAs or CLs or which DDs have 4 inch guns vs 5 inch guns or what the FlAK values of the various ships are. I just generally assume that a CA is a CA is a CA, a CL is a CL is a CL and so on and so forth.

My focus is all about manoeuvre and fire creating dislocation which results in strategically important outcomes. Tracker focuses on the technical-tactical characteristics of units, the minutiae of tracking sigint across the map and the specifics of convoys plowing certain routes. I tend to view all of that as irrelevant detail at the strategic level. I tend to concern myself with whether a base has "enough or not enough" supply/AV support/naval support etc. I also don't bother with intel reports from subsidiary theatres most of the time. I view them as potential distractions from the theatre of decision ( in most of my games I don't even bother to read sigint etc ).


E.g. for the Ramree operation I don't have any tabulation of what forces I'm sending. I know I'm sending "enough" infantry ( about 1.5 to 2.5 divisions, I'm not sure precisely how much since 1.5 is enough to take the empty base and so is 2.5 divisions and their role after Ramree is taken is to demonstrate a threat which must be countered. Again 1.5 divisions is enough for this, 2.5 divisions would simply be a bonus. ), "enough" AV support and "enough" engineers ( about 300 engineer equivalents). I'm also sending "enough" AAA - 2 to 4 units, I forget how many and "enough" coastal defence (1 to 2 units ).

Once "enough" is available I'm happy to launch the invasion. I don't need to know precisely how much is present. Given this viewpoint I feel that Tracker would simply add lots of data but little information which would impact on my decision-making so I don't use it.

E.g. 2@ How many planes will I commit to resupplying Shimushiri-jima? Well, I don't know. I've decided I'm going to commit the uSAAF heavy bombers and medium bombers to the mission as well as my PBY-4/5s. I'm simply going to look through my air units and commit 100% of the heavy and medium bombers and 66% of the PBYs, whatever that number is. This is a major decision point and warrants that commitment. Of course I will assess how much 100% of the heavy and medium bombers and PBYs is. I want to deliver about 600 tons a day by air so if that commitment won't do it then I'll have to bring in additional planes but I won't clutter my planning by doing a count. My sense is that what I have available is "enough" and that's good enough for my planning purposes.

I do understand that that sort of approach would strike some as slapdash and horrify them but I view it as concentrating on the bigger picture and leaving the unimportant details to my staff [:D].

My view is that if you can't describe all of your plans across the entire map in a 5 or 6 sentence paragraph in sufficient detail to pick up the game again after 6 months away then you're probably getting bogged down at layers below the strategic and are unlikely to have the laser-sharp focus on the strategic layer necessary for truly good play, IMO.

For example, my paragraph would be:
Try to hold the Kuriles islands while building up the Aleutians in preparation for a push into Hokkaido next spring. Hold him by the belt buckly in the rest of the Pacific pushing forward opportunistically if he retreats from his far-flung holdings. Conduct littoral amphibious ops a la Warsaw Pact vs Norway along the Burmese and Malaysian coastline. Clear Oz and push north to Davao using FT Tfs and LBA to cover hops. In China pin his forces in place and keep Hengchow in my hands ready for transformation into a major bomber base once UK forces create a proper overland route into China via Thailand. Cut off the Japanese economy's supply of oil via a Cannae-like double-envelopment with the short pincer being Singapore to Southern Borneo and the long pincer being Hengchow to the Davao.

At that stage I expect Damian to surrender. If he doesn't then I'd add another two lines. "Continue the land push along the island chain from Formosa to Japan while also clearing Korea via land campaign. Once both prongs are in position threaten landings from Korea, the island chain leading from Formosa and Hokkaido and, if he doesn't surrender then, actually follow through with the landings."


So, nothing against Tracker at all. I just think it tends to distract people from what's important.
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witpqs
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by witpqs »

That's cool. My perspective is that Tracker saves me time to do things I would do anyway. Some things are necessary actions for any strategy to execute well; I mean simple things like know when the troops arrive where I've sent them, know when new troops/ships/air groups arrive in-game, coordinating getting squads upgraded, etc. I look first at SigInt for that day only to see if anything of significance has popped up ("Kaga is right there!"), then go to Alerts and look at just that day's alerts sorted by alert type. That way I can catch all the arrivals, reached destinations, finished repairs and so in minimum time. There is loads of other 'good stuff' in Tracker that I only rarely look at.

That ships sunk tool is for the AAR (and only occasionally used), not a planning tool for me.
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by crsutton »

Good luck, you are picking up quite a mess but as long as auto-victory is not looming you should be fine-in a while...Basically, you are really in a similar position that the Allies were in 12/41, just a bit later. But the flood of reinforcements will come. If your opponent is as good as he looks on paper then you will have a good chance to play into 1946. That appeals to me.
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obvert
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by obvert »

Although the plan to hold the Kuriles outposts is bold, isn't it a bit optimistic? Where will you base 100% of the Allied 4E bomber force to resupply it? What happens when he just builds up the bases nearby and throws 200 fighters over those islands daily on LR CAP?

This is 42 so I presume the Japanese can force their will should they choose to do so, especially so close to home. Naval bombardments will suck more supply out than you can throw in and eventually wreck the troops there, especially mixed with daily milkruns from the air. If he wants to ruin those bases he can. The question is whether he will.

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Nemo121
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Nemo121 »

Well it is optimistic but surely it is better to try to do something difficult than to throw one's hands in the air and claim it to be impossible without even trying.

Basing bombers: I'll build up the Aleutian islands.

What happens when he commits 200 fighters a day? Simple, I'll take advantage of this in Burma, China and Oz.

Naval bombardments: Great, he'll run into mines, attrit his navy and all the while I'll be advancing in safety using my littoral amphibious campaigns free from being troubled by the ships committed here.

Some serve by being victorious. Some serve by dieing but taking a lot of killing. If all the Kuriles units can do is take a lot of killing then so be it. That outcome is acceptable to me so long as I can take advantage elsewhere.


In other news I've assembled a Chinese force which I think might have a chance of attriting an IJA stack. My force comprises some 87,000 men ( the stacking limit in an open hex is about 90,000 according to Damian ) and I've launched an attack today to test out the IJA defences. My force masses about 2,400 AV. He has about 900 AV but about 400 of that is tanks which makes me nervous. I have another 800 AV on the way to replace worn out units following the first attack. We'll see how it goes. If he shifts forces to counter this I plan to sidestep him and move the stack elsewhere to attack other weak points in the northern regions. I've spent about 60 PP buying new leaders for the largest units on the Chinese side so with 60 PP I figure I've boosted my adjusted AV by about 10% in total. Now we'll see if that was worth it.

Around Burma I am sending the first TFs into Akyab under heavy LRCAP from Akyab and Calcutta. Let's begin attriting his Netty force in the region. If they don't fly then I can gather my forces under the CAP of Akyab, see about sending an FT TF from Akyab into Ramree and then land the rest of the troops once Ramree is taken. I've tried creating FT TFs in this game but I'm having no luck in them being able to pick up troops. I have a CL and DD at Akyab but they won't pick up troops. I also have the ML Abdiel which, historically, acted as a fast transport. Does anyone know if that'll work in-game?

Elsewhere he is trying to take Carnarvon, I'm trying to push forces up to resist him and I'm generally just trying to organise my forces. I have 2 CL and 1 DD available throughout all of India while Oz - which is a backwater - is absolutely awash in BBs and DDs. It is all rather confusing but will be sorted out soon enough.

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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by jeffk3510 »

Glad to see you back and active. Looking forward, as always, to reading anything you put together here.

[:)]
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Canoerebel »

Unlike WitP, Allied destroyers and light cruisers don't have any cargo capacity to carry cargo or troops. For fast transport missions, you need APD (some other classes might be able to participate - perhaps some of the CM and AMC, though I'm not positive). Of course, cruisers and destroyers can act as escorts in FT TFs.

Edited to add "Allied." I have no idea if Japanese DDs or CLs have cargo capacity.
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Cribtop
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Cribtop »

Most IJN CL, DD and even bigger stuff has capacity and can join FT TF. Allies require APDs in most cases.
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Nemo121
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Nemo121 »

Well I have a grand total of about 4 APD and they're on the wrong side of the ocean. I think I'll try the CM Abdiel for the Ramree run and use the 100+ xAKs as bait in the meantime.
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by DW »

LOL! Yeah, Triandafilov is turning in his grave as we speak ;-).

[:D]
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Cribtop
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Cribtop »

As CR states, I think a few other Allied classes are capable. Some AMCs, maybe Abdiel, etc. Check for a cargo capacity stat.

Also, I think some DDs can be converted to APD.
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Nemo121
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by Nemo121 »

Aye, some of the AMCs have cargo capacity but they're too slow and will go in with the main fleet as torpedo sumps.

As to DD conversions... If I wait even 1 more week Damian will close off the Ramree option. I've taught him to anticipate aggressive exploitation of even the slightest opening and so I am certain he is currently in the midst of converting his position from one where openings were allowed since Floyd was on the back foot to one where he is using every means at his disposal ( including air transportation of fragments ) to garrison bases in his rear and to take bases he's bypassed.

I need to strike before he can close off the opportunity and that means going now... even though that means my total RN covering force comprises 2 CLs and a DD [8D]. It is challenging but fun though as this really must be what it is like to take over mid-war when the previous commander in a theatre eats his own revolver.... admittedly usually at the behest his zampolit and the not so friendly men from the NKVD.

Also... a word of appreciation for what may be the only forum on the planet where Triandafilov gets to be the recognised punchline of a joke [8D]
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RE: No fleet, no problem...

Post by obvert »

Well it is optimistic but surely it is better to try to do something difficult than to throw one's hands in the air and claim it to be impossible without even trying.

Basing bombers: I'll build up the Aleutian islands.

What happens when he commits 200 fighters a day? Simple, I'll take advantage of this in Burma, China and Oz.

Naval bombardments: Great, he'll run into mines, attrit his navy and all the while I'll be advancing in safety using my littoral amphibious campaigns free from being troubled by the ships committed here.

Some serve by being victorious. Some serve by dieing but taking a lot of killing. If all the Kuriles units can do is take a lot of killing then so be it. That outcome is acceptable to me so long as I can take advantage elsewhere.

It all sounds like a no-lose situation for the Allies. Oh, wait, I forgot, it is! Sorry.

Aside from the irony, you've taken on a bad position, and no amount of work will save the Aleutians if he wants them. Sure, you can do some things elsewhere during the same timeframe he is retaking those islands, but you won't take advantage of 200 fighters in the Kuriles because those are all restricted units he wouldn't use in another theater. Mines aren't going to stop bombardments, but they may injure a DD or two, very close to his shipyards. It only takes one TF to run bombardments, and that means the rest of the IJN can make sure your 'littoral' invasions are not quite as safe as you'd like.

The propaganda seems like most of the plan here, when in fact it's most likely that if your opponent plays well, this should be a tough year and you'll really have to build slowly toward an eventual superiority of force in 44. It's great to have a plan, but really, not every move will offer you a brilliant counter.

If you were taking up the other side, you'd most likely be pretty confident you could give the Allies a good fight to the end, right? So what are your opponents best counters to the strategies you've proposed?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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