Mining???!!!!

[Shark7]

Another thought, and it might be affecting others as well as myself.

I refuse to be extorted by pirates. As far as I am concerned, pirates are nothing but a target...pests to be exterminated. This of course leads to them attacking my freighters and mines and wrecking my economy.

So how do others deal with pirates? My automatic answer to the extortion attempts is to refuse, does everybody refuse?

[fierceking]

ORIGINAL: grumpy181155

I must admit I am not having fun anymore. I have mined every planet, gas cloud, asteroid and barren rock in my sphere of influence and I am still stuck with half my star bases not upgrading or building because they have material shortages of one sort or another. Half my fleet decided to refuel at a star base that was upgrading but has stalled because it has a shortage of Aculon and they are stuck there not doing anything. It is frustrating and annoying!

I used to have massive shortages on many of my planets/mining stations. Because of the way I play, I am very defensive so that all planets have a massive spaceport (redesigned) and each planet has to have 4-5 defensive bases with massive amounts of fighter bays.

The mining/Gas Mining stations usually goes to 1200+ size so I usually have massive shortages. Especially later on in game when unlocking tech goes faster and faster. BTW, I set my tech reserch at 999 difficulty.

Anyways, I was testing some things and what I found was that if I change the sizes of the freighters to match the biggest size I can build at that time, then the shortages go away slowly but eventually.

The freighters I redesign are usually focussed on fuel capacity, cargo space, and speed and thrust. What I notice is that one freighter will give a big amount to a planet, then other freighters will take some of that away and take to another planet/station and it gets spread out.

Another thing I did was to make my mining ships also as massive as the biggest size I can make. Shortages will go away but will depend on how bad your shortages are.

It's kinda strange to see freighters and mining ships bigger visually than my planet or fleets. But for me it works in reducing my shortages.

My suggestion is to redesign your freighters to be able to carry more, also add some extra fuel storage so that the they can travel farther and some extra engines so that they travel faster. But you have to watch how your private sector is doing. You don't want it so that they are losing money because that is another problem.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Another thought, and it might be affecting others as well as myself.

I refuse to be extorted by pirates. As far as I am concerned, pirates are nothing but a target...pests to be exterminated. This of course leads to them attacking my freighters and mines and wrecking my economy.

So how do others deal with pirates? My automatic answer to the extortion attempts is to refuse, does everybody refuse?

Once I'm strong enough to reasonably defend myself, yes. Before that, I'll sign protection agreements to prevent anything getting destroyed but cancel them as soon as they leave the system. The really close Pirates will come back, and I'll pay more the next time, but as the agreement is as short as possible the impact on cash (and thus Pirates building ships with my cash) is minimised.

Early game it can take a lot of time to recover a wrecked economy and signing long-term agreements is a cashflow killer particularly on a harsh start.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Shark, I play Extreme difficulty et al, and a few games on a harsh start as well. Looking at a few saves I very rarely find the prices going up for strategics. I know you are a very experienced player, are you sure you have enough mining bases for all strategics?

After the initial phase of mining bases building I never run low on stock ... it's just a question of how long it takes to get to the right place ...

It may be my overly aggressive playstyle Icemania. I may just be expanding too fast at first, and going to war too soon (I have a tendency to do this). I may need to force myself to slow down the build-up till I get some mines built, instead of putting a base over a planet the instant I colonize or conquer it.

I always recover from it, but I also always have a period of resource shortages.

Edit: Shadows also changed the way a few of the game systems work. I simply haven't managed to completely readjust to it yet.

Interested in exploring this a bit Shark as I don't think I've got it optimised yet either.

I played Legends only a little but only really got into this game with Shadows.

My fleets only start getting built and going on the offensive when strategic supplies are well in hand for my homeworld, 0% tax has increased population preferably to maximum (unless I'm playing a low reproduction rate race), and I have a fleet of exploration ships getting those goodies first i.e. the means to fund and resource a war machine is well in hand. Shockwave Torpedoes tends to be the prompt to crank the taxes up and go on the offensive. After than my fleets are almost always attacking a Pirate or Empire until I get to late game. New fleets are being built based on available cashflow (usually primarily balanced against how much crash research I want to do since I don't sell technology).

It's only after my first fleet is up that I even consider researching Colonisation. I see New Colonies with 30M starting population as a drain on an early empire and would rather go for the cash cows like nearby homeworlds or the bigger Independents first.

I've also just realised I can improve Colony Ship build speeds. I've tended to hit Colonise in Expansion Planner which sometimes leads to Colony Ships being built on smaller colonies that are too slow to build ... without fully sufficiently utilising my homeworld or other key colonies. Next game I'll constantly build Colony Ships at all key colonies and only assign them a Colonisation mission once they are built.

When I colonise or conquer I normally don't pause to build more mining bases and also always build a spaceport over a new colony (although new game will be a hybrid of bases and ports). If they take some time to build I don't worry about it and just send a few ships for system defence (once they arrive the fleet moves onto the next target). So long as I can keep building fleets on my homeworld and other key colonies ... and refuelling them ... expansion can be almost exponential in this phase (in my last game, same settings as my AAR, I had 21 colonies in 2120 and 135 colonies in 2130). The only exception to that approach is conquering a homeworld that I want to use as a Fleet builder later with a Large Space Port where I'll build some mining bases nearby.

[Shark7]

My usual game flow (as a classic age empire) is:

1. Expand home starport to large
2. Build an assault fleet, an extra constructor, and bring my explorers to a total of 12.
3. Find an independent and conquer it.
4. Reload new troops on the assault fleet.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until no independents left in reasonable range.

Of course with me conquering most of my first colonies, I am almost required to get some type of base with med and recreation over the top of it to calm the populace. This gets the money flowing early, but the resources tend to go into shortages.

Also, I hve many annoyed pirates by the time I gobble up the local independents.

[Plant]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

So how do others deal with pirates? My automatic answer to the extortion attempts is to refuse, does everybody refuse?

I pay the protection fee, depending whether the cost benefit of resources lost to money lost is worth it or not.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

My usual game flow (as a classic age empire) is:

1. Expand home starport to large
2. Build an assault fleet, an extra constructor, and bring my explorers to a total of 12.
3. Find an independent and conquer it.
4. Reload new troops on the assault fleet.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until no independents left in reasonable range.

Of course with me conquering most of my first colonies, I am almost required to get some type of base with med and recreation over the top of it to calm the populace. This gets the money flowing early, but the resources tend to go into shortages.

Also, I hve many annoyed pirates by the time I gobble up the local independents.

Okay comparing notes will be limited as I always play Age of Shadows Prewarp so I'll try to focus on a few topics that should be common.

Once past Prewarp I'm often building constructors, with the odd pause depending on exploration, until I have about 30. This enables me to get all the mining bases I need up quickly and then they move onto debris fields. In parallel I'll be building a fleet of at least 50 explorers because those goodies provide huge value, particularly Way of the Ancients and the Super Luxuries, Technology Boosters etc. I find 20-30 mining bases is enough to start cranking out assault fleets and refuel them without worrying about resource shortages. I'll almost always go for the nearest homeworld over the independents first as the prize is just too good early game.

Have a look at the sequence in my AAR and let me know what you think. Looking at my current game, back in 2108 (same settings as my AAR but Quameno Technocracy which moved things along way faster) I have 22 constructors, 57 exploration ships, 22 mining stations, 0 assault fleets (just a couple of very small defensive fleets with a couple of ships only), was taking my first homeworld/Empire with a couple of well armoured troop transports that sneaked into land troops before they were blown away and had at least 10k in stock for almost every Strategic (and bases under construction for any under 10k). My first assault fleet was build a few months later when Shockwave Torpedoes and Deucalios Shield Research was finished.

[Shark7]

Looks like we have completely different playstyles, which is a good thing, it allows us to compare and contrast. As the all conquering megalomaniac, I run into resource problems, but I do spend a lot more on my military than on my civilian economy. You on the other hand have a very healthy civilian economy with not so much military.

It also seems the game is favoring your style over mine, as you have none of the problems I do when it comes to resources or maintenance costs. This is possibly something to investigate further.

And I can't imagine having 50+ explorers...for me 12 is plenty. But I like my games to last a long time too.

[Icemania]

Once the civilian economy is up I become a bit of a megalomaniac. The purpose in getting the civilian economy rocking is to support that i.e. short-term pain for long-term gain philosophy. Normally I'll build up to 7 fleets, typically 12 ships of the largest size available, with some transport ships and an explorer with a scanner ... they literally spend the rest of the game blowing up bases and invading planets. Getting the economy rocking is the best way to be able to fund those fleets and in parallel start colonising everything. Another mistake I made in my last game was killing off all the pirates too early when I needed them to absorb those reputation hits!

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: skigrinder
Would it be possible to add a simple 'transfer' dialog to move resources between bases, planets and ships?
The ability to manually satisfy shortages with a resupply ship (i.e. a very large, manual freighter) would eliminate a lot of gnashing of teeth.

To add to Jeeves enthusiasm on this idea I also agree that this is a fantastic suggestion. Apart from providing resources for new colonies to ensure I have what I need to build ports/bases ... since I know what my future upgrade path will be I could ensure those resources were available in advance for future upgrades of any facility anywhere.

[thebigpieman]

With the exception of my home system I like to have 1 or 2 Ports in the system depending on its size.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Once the civilian economy is up I become a bit of a megalomaniac. The purpose in getting the civilian economy rocking is to support that i.e. short-term pain for long-term gain philosophy. Normally I'll build up to 7 fleets, typically 12 ships of the largest size available, with some transport ships and an explorer with a scanner ... they literally spend the rest of the game blowing up bases and invading planets. Getting the economy rocking is the best way to be able to fund those fleets and in parallel start colonising everything. Another mistake I made in my last game was killing off all the pirates too early when I needed them to absorb those reputation hits!

I've started a new game and will be testing your play-style a bit. I'm still going to go conquer a few independents and establish my borders, but I'm keeping only 2 small transport fleets and currently have 24 constructors. If things work out better after this little test, I'll be able to make a few more informed judgments.

[Icemania]

Have fun Shark, I've also started a new game to testing build more Starbases at colonies so look forward to sharing notes.

With 24 constructors keep in mind you'll need many extra explorers first to find the debris fields to keep them busy and find the rest of the goodies. Normally I'll build 10-12 Constructors then pause until some debris fields are found and as it's clear I'll need them.

[Shark7]

Played a while now, have 98 mines, 72 gas mines and still getting advisors telling me to offer smuggling missions, so not sure if it's due to any real shortage, or just the AI being the AI.

I also now have 30 constructors, still on 12 explorers, and the constructors stay busy anyway. What I don't seem to have enough of currently is freighters.

[Icemania]

Okay great Shark let's compare notes.

I'm just getting into the mid-game, 2120, with same settings as AAR (and with the new patch Strong, Very Many Pirates selected).

I have a total of 58 mines with 14 colonies. The lowest amount of stock I have for any Strategic is 67k. Since supply is well in hand every constructor is repairing a ship somewhere providing a steady trickle of technology boosters. The only reason I have 58 mines is to ensure I have a few sources distributed around the empire to hopefully help those freighters a bit. Otherwise I don't think more mines than this provides any real benefit ... they just add to maintenance costs.

I'm only using 4 attack fleets in this game. I previously killed Pirates too quickly and I need some around to keep my reputation up for future invasions. That said there is a ring around my territory that has been cleared so Pirate attacks are only occasional. I had no resource shortages when those fleets were built at my homeworld and have had no problems refuelling (Military on Hydrogen, Civilian on Caslon) or upgrading.

I'm up to 100 Explorers ... Jeeves would be proud! After finding Way of the Ancients, a Super Weapon and enough debris fields I got lazy and put them all on Auto. Sorry Jeeves but I've had enough "Move To" micro for these holidays! No problems refuelling and upgrading the Explorers.

I don't use the advisor so can't comment on this advice, other than a distant memory of turning them all off, very handy to familiarise in the first few games but otherwise ignore.

Early on with Shadows I used Smuggling Missions all the time but now I only use them rarely when I have a supply problem early game.

The 14 colonies include 3 conquered homeworlds and some of the better nearby independents. A rapid expansion phase is now imminent. Started to mass produce colony ships (only on the top few worlds at maximum population) and I can't see any resource shortages. In parallel those 4 fleets are now strong enough to make mincemeat of any Empire or Pirate (although I'm looking forward to stronger Legendary Pirates in this release). I've just hit maximum population on 2 more homeworlds so huge amount of cashflow (+$1.45M) so it's time to build more fleets and troops.

The only resource shortage messages are for new bases/ports under construction or being upgraded. I completely ignore them. I'm sure they are all waiting for Freighters to move resources around. Give them time and they will come and I have a few ships for defence until they are up. I'm not sure what else I can do to influence those Freighters, they are all custom designed with plenty of speed etc.

There do appear to be less of these messages in this game. I think it's helped not having so many Spaceports. I think it's helped that Small and Medium Freighters are designed the same as a Large Freighters so they can carry more cargo, sometimes. But this needs to be considered more robustly.

Your experience and views?

[Shark7]

OK, I'm mid game now as well.

Current settings is Hard difficulty, very many pirates at normal strength and respawning, I have 29 colonies, 93 mines (Pirates, Arghhh!), 84 gas mines, and nearly 400 freighters total. The AI is no longer bugging me about smuggling resources. My lowest level strategic resource is chromium with 73.8k in stock.

I am running 6 attack fleets of 17 ships each, along with 1 strike fleet with high end abandoned ships, and a large number of frigates and escorts patrolling. In fact, I have 54 escort, 47 frigate and 36 destroyers total. 12 Troop ships, 7 cruisers, 1 capital ship (cruisers and capitals are reclaimed derelicts). 12 Recon, 30 constructor.

Right now I have the minecrafter achievment, meaning I am mining more than any AI empire, but my economy is still in 2nd place. [X(] My casflow is 323k net, just from taxes.

This way is working out far better, I have not once gone into negative income, and I am still stronger than all the other empires individually by mid game.

My overall impression is that the freighters and the cargo moving routine is the only real problem...it's just not efficient. Too many times I find freighters (my big ones can carry 10k of resources) are moving from place to place with only a fraction of their capacity filled (in once case a large freighter carrying only 25 of argon with 9975 of its cargo capacity unused). I'm about to redesign my freighters and reduce their loads to a max of 2-3k, since they rarely carry loads larger than that anyway.

[Jeeves]

In my current game 58/02/05 the civilians have 19500k cash and I just had to sell my empire map to all the AI to get cash from negative to 500k. A few days later I raked in 1300k (civilians got 4550k), 770k at spaceports and increased AI empire trade by 1100k on 4600k existing. So if you are hurting for cash on the empire side, sell your territory map to everybody to get trade flowing. Back on the freighter topic, I INCREASED the size of MY freighters to cargo of 15k small, 23k medium, 35k large to get some money from the civilians for retrofits. I calculated that if they retrofit everything, I'll get about 8 million cash and they'll STILL be able to pay their maintenance fees. I added extra reactors, area shield recharge, and shields to 1800 on all freighters. I also gave them 3/4/5 assault pods to prevent their being captured if the shields go down, and 15 terminator auto-cannons each just in case a fleet attacks a freighter. Now I just need to increase all my spaceport sizes to handle the increased yard usage...

Lonnie Courtney Clay

[Icemania]

Shark, glad it's working well.

I completely agree that Freighters are highly inefficient. However, I understand the developer needs to optimise processing time particularly on large maps late game, so I'm wary of being critical on this. Ideally they could provide more information on the approach taken to allow constructive feedback ... for those that want to spend time on this (my last week of leave unfortunately).

While many Freighters carry small loads it's useful to also consider those carrying large loads. Here I found that for Small and Medium Freighters, there was a reasonable fraction that carried cargo above the AI default. Given the relatively small cost difference I feel there is a case for increasing cargo to be the equivalent of a Large Freighter for Small and Medium which I'm currently testing in game. So unless you have a Civilian Cash problem I'm doubtful about reducing the size.

Interesting comment on Economy. I have a similar problem even when I'm way ahead of any other empire, playing races that don't have trade bonuses.

Jeeves I consider overdesigning civilians to get cash an exploit but each to their own. It looks to me like the proportion of Freighters carrying more than the Large default is very small. With respect, on normal settings you can fund just about anything, harder settings force you to compromise and optimise. Please play your next game on Extreme, Shadows Prewarp Start with Many Strong Nearby Pirates, Expensive Research at least, change the Biases file so everyone likes you less to limit trading, ban technology selling, and then let us know how your strategy changes. I've played these settings with Harsh starts, other Empires way ahead on size/technology, and the game is still very winnable, but not as much fun.

[Shark7]

My deal with playing it on just hard at the moment is to see how its working when you aren't purposely punishing yourself,

I've started another new game, this time I've reduced the cargo loads of my freighters to 1500, 2000, and 2500 respectively. I'm making less cash off the civies, but not seeing almost completely empty freighters going everywhere.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: thebigpieman
With the exception of my home system I like to have 1 or 2 Ports in the system depending on its size.

As a reformed port spammer, 1 port per system could be a good hybrid solution. When do you use 2 ports per system? Have you tried other options and what do you observe in comparison?