The Germans must have production in WITE2

[darbycmcd]

But I guess I still don't understand the problem. I am asking this to understand, do you think the soviets should be limited to historical OB? Or do you think that the large engineering capacity is unbalancing?

[rmonical]

ORIGINAL: darbymcd
But I guess I still don't understand the problem. I am asking this to understand, do you think the soviets should be limited to historical OB? Or do you think that the large engineering capacity is unbalancing?

If sapper regiments cost 3 APs, I am totally OK.

[Disgruntled Veteran]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

When you ask what is a realistic number of sapper units, tell me how many FZs the Axis can build. Spamming multiple layers of forts across the entire Soviet front is the one and only reason sapper spam exists.

The Soviets do the same thing because they can create tons of ant units that build multiple rows of defense in depth. As the above poster said if Germans could create multiple digger ants, forts would be far less prevalent but the result would be the same. Both sides have this advantage.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

When you ask what is a realistic number of sapper units, tell me how many FZs the Axis can build. Spamming multiple layers of forts across the entire Soviet front is the one and only reason sapper spam exists.

The Soviets do the same thing because they can create tons of ant units that build multiple rows of defense in depth. As the above poster said if Germans could create multiple digger ants, forts would be far less prevalent but the result would be the same. Both sides have this advantage.

Disagree, primarily b/c Soviet units are far less efficient diggers than Germans. You can't build walls of lvl3 forts like the German can. Personally I think forts should be nerfed again for both sides, they encourage mindless, boring play that has zero connection with the Eastern Front historically

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

Personally I think forts should be nerfed again for both sides, they encourage mindless, boring play that has zero connection with the Eastern Front historically

Agreed, unfortunately this is not possible with the current combat engine. If you restrict fort building, the Wehrmacht will get ground to dust in no time once the Soviets have completed the switch to corps.

[Tarhunnas]

Some forts should be OK, what is a problem is the super-deep belts of forts. There should be some way of limiting this without totally hindering the buildup of fortified belts that was done around major cities for example.

Large parts of the Eastern fron were actually rather quiescent during long periods, the northern part especially. Forts do have a role to play there, but admittedly logistics was also a big reason for that part being quiet, and that limitation is largely missing from the game.

This actually another fudge rule, the use of static units in the 1942 scenario to limit operations to the southern part of the front instead of limiting logistics so that players cannot attack with all armies at the same time.

[Denniss]

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

Ah that is an interesting. May I ask your source? I was using (dammit, I can't get the Cyrillic characters to work here....) I guess in English it is "Order of Battle of the Soviet Army", which is mostly available online here
http://www.tashv.nm.ru/
It pretty clearly shows the sovs running more than 50 bde elements and never less than 250 bn pretty much from the end of 42 on..... but I would defer to a more authoritative source (than the official soviet army historical record...)

Does the site separate offensivly used sappers from construction engineers?

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

Personally I think forts should be nerfed again for both sides, they encourage mindless, boring play that has zero connection with the Eastern Front historically

Agreed, unfortunately this is not possible with the current combat engine. If you restrict fort building, the Wehrmacht will get ground to dust in no time once the Soviets have completed the switch to corps.

I hear you, although if the Soviets are punished more heavily in '41 and '42 due to weak forts this may be less of an issue. Increasing attacker losses in concert might go a long way to address the issue you raise as well.

Realize this is probably a fruitless discussion as a major change like this isn't happening, but one could dream.

[darbycmcd]

Deniss, that is an interesting question. It does not specify what those units are. I know they are "field" army units (ie not things like RR service) but I don't really know the specific breakdown. It is a good point that the player in the game can focus on combat engineers more than historical armies did.

[Tac2i]

I don't have a fishing pole in the water as I don't play this game but personally I really dislike 'IRL' games. I want to make history not replay it in a way that straight jackets me into historical outcomes. Now back to Advanced Tactics Gold and Battle Academy 2.

[Stelteck]

The games do not need more special one side rules limitation. There are already a lot and it was not the best part of the game. (Rules 1=2 was one of them).


The game need more freedom. So allowing german some production control & unit construction would be nice.

[Aurelian]

So how many units did OKH make during the war?

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

So how many units did OKH make during the war?

It is not really important. They made as many units as possible to use in the best possible way their manpower and weapon reserves. Being too close to the historicals units after the start of the invasion is meaningless.

[jzardos]

ORIGINAL: morvael

A free-for-all production system isn't necessary. What I would like to see is a semi-historical requisition system, where the allowances are decided by history and the player can request (not build) only historical units (giving up units used to build up if necessary), up to the limit of given period, give or take a few % by paying extra prestige (VP) for getting some units a month earlier. So, if the Soviets had 20 Tanks Corps in December 43 (just random example) and I have only 15, I can request 5 more to be put on the map immediately at no VP cost, ask for a 6th by spending extra VP or order only 3 and getting extra VP for every turn under the historical limit. Basically a reinforcement table that a player can strech a little and define order in which units will come, but not their maximum number.

+1! [&o][&o]

I've always felt from the day I started with WitE that the Germans have pools of tanks and other AFVs sitting in warehouses was sheer insanity. Every tanks and vehicle was used in some capacity. They sometimes threw them on the front even before the proper paint job was applied. Was very surprised and angered when the original devs never correct this serious misgiving. Let's hope that now we have a new and more caring champion (morvael) of WitE, that it can grow into something that it should many years ago!

[jzardos]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

The thing is, the Germans never had anything in the pools in the first place. Those aircraft? Went to the Luftwaffe in the Reich or in the West. Those tanks? Perhaps losses are too low. Production isn't the only trigger that can be pulled here.

Sure, if WITE2 gives the Germans victory points for sending "stuff" West, then that might be a good compromise. The more stuff the Germans send west, the smaller the '44/'45 production hits will be.

Yes, I also agree a way to simulation the West Front needs should be incorporated into WitE2.

[Commanderski]

I've always felt from the day I started with WitE that the Germans have pools of tanks and other AFVs sitting in warehouses was sheer insanity. Every tanks and vehicle was used in some capacity. They sometimes threw them on the front even before the proper paint job was applied. Was very surprised and angered when the original devs never correct this serious misgiving. Let's hope that now we have a new and more caring champion (morvael) of WitE, that it can grow into something that it should many years ago!

I agree. We don't need to mess with production as that has impacts on other areas we may not have even considered. A way to access excess vehicles in the pool would be great.

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

So how many units did OKH make during the war?

It is not really important. They made as many units as possible to use in the best possible way their manpower and weapon reserves. Being too close to the historicals units after the start of the invasion is meaningless.

Keep in mind the inflated number German units actually was something that contributed to the demise of the German armed forces. It was Hitler's obsession (and Göring's ego) with numbers in the war that had units like the Luftwaffe field divisions created rather than using this manpower (hundreds of thousands) as replacements for already proven units. The reduction from nine infantry battalions to six later in the war also allowed the Germans to keep more divisions in the field. Of course this was only at the determent of the overall fight capability of the division.
IMO the number of units should not be any sort of consideration for WitE.

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

So how many units did OKH make during the war?

It is not really important. They made as many units as possible to use in the best possible way their manpower and weapon reserves. Being too close to the historicals units after the start of the invasion is meaningless.

Keep in mind the inflated number German units actually was something that contributed to the demise of the German armed forces. It was Hitler's obsession (and Göring's ego) with numbers in the war that had units like the Luftwaffe field divisions created rather than using this manpower (hundreds of thousands) as replacements for already proven units. The reduction from nine infantry battalions to six later in the war also allowed the Germans to keep more divisions in the field. Of course this was only at the determent of the overall fighting capability of the division.
IMO the number of units should not be any sort of consideration for WitE.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

I've always felt from the day I started with WitE that the Germans have pools of tanks and other AFVs sitting in warehouses was sheer insanity. Every tanks and vehicle was used in some capacity. They sometimes threw them on the front even before the proper paint job was applied. Was very surprised and angered when the original devs never correct this serious misgiving. Let's hope that now we have a new and more caring champion (morvael) of WitE, that it can grow into something that it should many years ago!

I agree. We don't need to mess with production as that has impacts on other areas we may not have even considered. A way to access excess vehicles in the pool would be great.

If you have too many vehicles in the pool, you're not fighting hard enough

[swkuh]

Its easy to play Axis because managing production is not on the table. (I wouldn't know where to begin w/Soviet's capability to build units.)

If production were to be considered anew then the way to go is to establish a budget for R&D, factory development, resource substitution, labor, & (finally) production to game the choice of what equipment, when, & where it is developed. Its Albert Speer vs. Soviet's equivalent w/prototypical interference from Uncle Adolph & Papa Joe.

Radical thought: current game would be better if Soviet "production" choices were less flexible.