Who plays C&C

[vahauser]

Goblin,

I always play with True Troop Cost ON. Always. That is my point. When you play with Historical Characteristics ON, then True Troops Cost makes no difference because ALL units are priced at Encyclopedia costs. It is only when you turn Historical Characteristics OFF and set your own Troop Quality that the units fluctuate in price based on the TQ you chose with True Troop Cost ON. It is when you play with Historical Characteristics ON that the pricing advantages/disadvantages are forced on players, regardless of the True Troop Cost setting. And that is what I don't like.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that the word "elite" was a poor choice of words by SPWAW and that they should've used something like "first-line" instead. Think about it. When you set your TQ to 40 and buy an "elite" (the poor word used by SPWAW) unit, that unit isn't elite at all--it is simply +10 to 40 which is still poor. The word "elite" should have been reserved for only those units whose experience is 100 or more (which is what the Star in the Data-Screen indicates. Unfortunately, now we have two uses of the word "elite" and it causes confusion, just as it has here. Substitute "first-line" +10 for "elite" +10 in the Purchase Screen and it makes a lot more sense, and reserve the use of the word "elite" only for those units that have a Star in the Unit Data Screen (experience 100 or more).

I don't "limit" myself to any Troop Quality. And I am perfectly capable of playing against anybody anytime anywhere and give them the TQ of their choice. Just because I usually prefer 81-91 doesn't mean I am requiring my opponent to choose the TQ I want them to--they are free to choose any TQ they want. Just as I reserve the right to pick some other TQ if I want to. That is the whole point to setting TQs manually. Freedom of choice. Usually both players can agree pregame on TQs. But there are other options, too. Most times I just say what TQ I want and we negotiate from there. It's not really a big deal.

I don't feel insulted at all. I am currently involved in several PBEM games right now. Why don't you ask them if I am an unsavory opponent? I recently played M4 Jess. Ask him, too.

A while back there was a scenario called "The Biggest of Them All" which portrayed the huge battle of Prokhoravka near Kursk. I think it is still on the SPWAW scenario list. Check it out. In that scenario, designed by Wild Bill Wilder as I recall, MOST of the German units had experience, morale, rally, and leadership ratings well over 100--some were as high as 120. And as far as I know, NOBODY has ever complained that the German units were rated too high. Indeed, SPWAW defines "veteran" based on the sergeant's stripes in the Unit Data Screen as units with experience ratings of 80-99; "average" troops are defined as those between 60-79; and "green" troops as those below 60. My desire to play with "veteran" troops is simply a preference, but a preference with some historical basis behind it. Most panzer troops were veterans and many were elite. That is historical fact. That means that most panzers were 80-99, and many were 100 or more in SPWAW terms. So, by wanting to play with TQ 81-91, I prefer to play with armored forces that fall right in the middle of the range that history says they should be.

--Victor

[Goblin]

Originally posted by vahauser
Goblin,

I always play with True Troop Cost ON. Always. That is my point. When you play with Historical Characteristics ON, then True Troops Cost makes no difference because ALL units are priced at Encyclopedia costs. It is only when you turn Historical Characteristics OFF and set your own Troop Quality that the units fluctuate in price based on the TQ you chose with True Troop Cost ON. It is when you play with Historical Characteristics ON that the pricing advantages/disadvantages are forced on players, regardless of the True Troop Cost setting. And that is what I don't like.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that the word "elite" was a poor choice of words by SPWAW and that they should've used something like "first-line" instead. Think about it. When you set your TQ to 40 and buy an "elite" (the poor word used by SPWAW) unit, that unit isn't elite at all--it is simply +10 to 40 which is still poor. The word "elite" should have been reserved for only those units whose experience is 100 or more (which is what the Star in the Data-Screen indicates. Unfortunately, now we have two uses of the word "elite" and it causes confusion, just as it has here. Substitute "first-line" +10 for "elite" +10 in the Purchase Screen and it makes a lot more sense, and reserve the use of the word "elite" only for those units that have a Star in the Unit Data Screen (experience 100 or more).


--Victor

I just went and conducted alot of buying over several different years, forces, etc. With True Troop ON, the prices are adjusted for unit experience. Period. With True Troop OFF, they are listed at the cost in the encyclopedia. I believe 'elite' is a fine title for those troops., because it is in comparison to the rest of that nations troops that the rating comes in. For example, the Iraqi Republican Guard was not very elite to us, but to them, they were elite. So when you see SS as an elite +10 unit, it is accurate. They are elite compared to other German units. There is an Elite Rating, and there are the elite troops of a Nation. Don't confuse the two. If you actually enjoy playing units that are elite category, there you go. They are elite. You like to play troops that are elite troops, with their ratings raised to simulate lots and lots of combat. Thats fine. My point is, don't come across as someone on another level as us because of the C&C stuff, if you are not even playing that purely. Take the Soviets against the Fins. Take the French in '40. Leave their ratings the way they are, with Historical Ratings ON. Have True Troop ON. You will get tons of stuff. When you take the French against the Germans or the Soviets against the Fins, or another such battle, and regularly win with C&C on, then you are on another level. One above me, because I won't take them with C&C off.


Goblin

[Irinami]

Originally posted by Goblin
I believe 'elite' is a fine title for those troops., because it is in comparison to the rest of that nations troops that the rating comes in. For example, the Iraqi Republican Guard was not very elite to us, but to them, they were elite. So when you see SS as an elite +10 unit, it is accurate. They are elite compared to other German units.

Too true. Training can only do so much, and in purchase screen, I figure you're usually getting a green unit just out of training (especially in the long-campaign).

You take a fresh Ranger Company, and pit it against a Company from the 9th ID after Col. Hackworth got through with them. That Ranger Co. is only going to survive by hiding. Period. Combat experience cannot be matched by training, only approached.

Anecdote: In the Balkans campaigns recently (I use that term loosely), the US started with about a 40-60% on-target accuracy with bombs. After a "few" sorties, the accuracy went up to 80%, even 89%. (I think this was an FAS article, but have forgotten for sure.)

Elite units in SPWAW were trained to be elite. They are not necessarily combat veterans. There is a giant difference... just ask... well, anyone. IAF, maybe--I bet they could tell you.

[vahauser]

I'll take your challenge, Goblin. If somebody wants to set up a tournament with C&C ON and Historical Characteristics ON, then I will be first in line to sign up.

Heck, even if nobody wants to play a tournament, I'm still willing to play anybody anytime with C&C ON and Historical Characteristics ON.

I just like to play.

--Victor

[Goblin]

That's the spirit! The French were just an example, of course. I still think anyone who takes them is a far braver soul than myself...


Goblin

[WhiteRook]

I use it some times against the AI, but if I am testing a scenario I made or someone else sent me I never leave it on unless the designer says to do it!
sorry guys I only play against the AI - Clark Griswald could beat me in H2H!!