The Zhukov-less Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

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M60A3TTS
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by M60A3TTS »

20-26 November 1941 (23rd week of the war)

The Fascists by all accounts have given up any attempt to take Moscow by storm. Their attacks by three identified tank corps continue south of the Oka gaining roughly the same amount of terrain as in the previous week. Although I am not one to believe in miracles, this comes as close to one as could be possibly imagined. My only conclusion is the enemy figured on a difficult envelopment that might not provide a firm grip on their objective. Whatever the reason, we must now have as our winter aim the ejection of German forces from the outskirts of Moscow. Light to moderate snow is falling on much of the front and temperatures are now regularly below freezing. Our enemy must surely know that conditions will certainly deteriorate drastically over the next few weeks. In any case if they do not withdraw from the vicinity of Moscow, we will force the issue. Comrade Stalin takes a keen interest in every detail for offensive preparations, as the nightly operations briefings regularly run into the early morning hours at the Kremlin.

The Volkhov Front under General-Leytenant Artemev is formed. Consists of 48th, 55th and 61st Armies and is positioned between Leningrad and Northwest Fronts.
Lengthy conversation with Kirponos. His rife divisions were replenished with largely conscript forces over the last weeks. Consequently he believes his forces will be hard pressed to achieve significant gains in his sector under adverse weather conditions once our winter campaign is launched. I reply he has the second most amount of manpower of any Soviet Front with 540,00 men, 400 AFVs and almost 500 aircraft. His weaker army commanders have been relieved and replaced. We will also be releasing STAVKA 60th Army under Pliev to reinforce his right flank and Transcaucasus Front will send 44th Army with initially four mountain divisions to help with his left. Those divisions of the 44th will be doubled in January. He will also be supported by 1-2 cavalry armies and 1-2 Shock Armies containing select tank brigades as the campaign unfolds. Therefore he will be expected to accomplish all of his objectives, without fail. Any commander regardless of rank who does not press forward the attack will find himself in a penal battalion very quickly. To think that a month ago we faced the prospect of a desperate defense. Now all of our detailed planning is focused on offensive action.

Our ground forces have risen to 5.58 million men against 3.66 million German. Artillery tubes 49,500 to their 36,200. Tanks 7,500 to their 5,150. Aircraft 7,800 against their 3,300. By all indications we are gaining force ratios in all categories.

Air losses reported to date. Air combat 1,850 vs 550 Axis. Flak 430 vs 150 Axis. Operational 1,750 vs 550 Axis. Total 5,632 vs. 1,267. Discounting losses on the ground in the first week of war, losses adjust to 4,393 vs 1,267 a ratio of 3.47 to 1.

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HITMAN202
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by HITMAN202 »

I haven't seen it done in any AAR's, but against the A-1 several times I have triggered 5 (five !!!) HQBUP's the last mud turn prior to '41 snow and it was ugly ... WWII bully beat down (great series U-Tube.) What do you think M60A ???? The Germans have the AP's to waste. I've seen a few Ruskies get caught with their pants down the first snow in '42. I think you were on the receiving end of one :) :)
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M60A3TTS
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by M60A3TTS »

Good question. Given there are only 3 snow turns, I don't think most Axis players want to risk finding themselves overextended on the first blizzard turn. That's why you don't see it in AARs.
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Good question. Given there are only 3 snow turns, I don't think most Axis players want to risk finding themselves overextended on the first blizzard turn. That's why you don't see it in AARs.

It is a mistake not to at least get a pocket in the south.

I almost always get a 10-15 division pocket first turn.

SHC has to buy those units back and that buys you space in the which you can trade for time and space and very easly regain come spring/summer.
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by loki100 »

think its a good idea to use those first two snow turns for a small attack.

The Soviets are often still disorganised and are preparing for their offensive so can be off balance. You can also wreck some rail lines and that will tie up the (likely to be limited) rail repair assets and potentially slow the counterattack.

Less sure about the 'buy back' argument. Those returning rifle divisions may be free from an admin pt of view but carry other costs and impose a load on your arms pts that you can't control. There are also going to be vulnerable to their NM being around 40 by the time of the summer battles.

You can instead build a reserve army using rifle brigades (each cost 5 admin but that is less of a constraint overall), set their TOE at 50% and they don't absorb too many resources when you have your biggest problem (ie till the winter evacuation industry is back on stream), get them up to 100% by May and convert to divisions as you need them. They then enter the line with ok experience and 50 morale. If they convert from 100% TOE it only takes one turn for them to fill out as a pretty decent (cv of 3-4) rifle division while the returnees will be struggling around 1-2.
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Peltonx
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Peltonx »

10-15 divisions is a truck ( the more Tanks/MoT/Cav/Mech units the better) hit also right before winter and with good recon you can pocket some cav/tank or MT units.

SHC needs rifle Corp to hang on to Moscow in 42 plus allot of other things so if GHC can pocket 100+ divisions in 42, its going to be a long while before The Red Steam Roller can get moving.
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HITMAN202
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by HITMAN202 »

Looked back at a few recent AAR's. The quick end to Sapper-Callistrad was due to a 1st snow turn blitz.
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Callistrid
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Callistrid »

Good german player can pocket a whole front, or even more on first winter turn.
The player only need to concentrate all of his pz/mot units on south, or around Moscow, and the soviet side can resist against 36+ pz/mot plus xx infantry division.
With mild winter, the soviet counterattack seems to be useless, after the firts winter turns.
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HITMAN202
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by HITMAN202 »

I agree and it's not done enough. M60 is also correct in that the Germans can find themselves all discombobulated (our man of words Sillyflower should like that one) when blizzard (normal blizzard) hits.

Callistrid your AAR versus Sapper was one of the best ever (that is in regards to the action/tension.) You played against of the all-time best WITE addicts (IMO the best combined German/Soviet player) and to say you had him on the ropes is putting it mildly.

I appreciate your input on this forum.
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M60A3TTS
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by M60A3TTS »

27 November-3 December 1941 (24th week of the war)

The Germans continue their attacks south of the Oka, as to demonstrate their faith in their own invulnerability. They will learn how wrong they are very soon. Temperatures are now down to 20 degrees below freezing at night. Predictions are as expected, that temperatures will fall much further next week. Soon the Germans will find themselves and their equipment frozen in the snow.

We are only able to muster a single counterattack by Pliev’s 60th Army, forcing back the 18th Panzer Division of Hube’s 47th Tank Corps. Elsewhere our divisions are advancing in places where the Germans are giving ground. Cavalry elements are moving off to their attack positions.

Quartermaster and Rear Area Services report 148,700 trucks in units which slightly exceeds current needs. 175,000 trucks in the army motor pools that require only 96,500.

OOB
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Northern area
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Voronezh Area
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Rostov area
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Callistrid
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Callistrid »

Honestly, the +1 rule gives chance to stand and fight, counterattack, not just to retreat, build forts, and set reserve. Without +1 rule, the soviet can't lead any successful counterattack against the german, just try to minimize the troop and territorial losses. With the soviet side, need just to see where is the current rail line, check the defendable locations, retreat if it's necessary, and never care with the german infantry. Boring game type.

Personally I never agree with Peltons middle earth critic. Maybe +1 was little harsh, but +0,5 would be the balanced option.
And I always hate the motorized raid attack, when players send them into dark without fear.
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Honestly, the +1 rule gives chance to stand and fight, counterattack, not just to retreat, build forts, and set reserve. Without +1 rule, the soviet can't lead any successful counterattack against the german, just try to minimize the troop and territorial losses. With the soviet side, need just to see where is the current rail line, check the defendable locations, retreat if it's necessary, and never care with the german infantry. Boring game type.

Personally I never agree with Peltons middle earth critic. Maybe +1 was little harsh, but +0,5 would be the balanced option.
And I always hate the motorized raid attack, when players send them into dark without fear.
Problem is +1 is a very easy exploit and has zero to do with history.

Yes bro its middle earth and last time I checked this game is about WWII.

Not Gondor vs Mordor

and if can read, Russia was never able to mount a counter attack or stand and fight from June to October. If Germany wanted it they took it.

Leningrad stood, because Hitler did not want to commit to the attack.
There was no Lvov pocket because Hitler did not choose to do it.

Russia got slaughtered for 5 months, 1v1=2v1 has zip to do with history and has no place in a game based on historical possiblitys.

Historical losses on Eastern front, only includes KIA,MIA,WIA

——————German——————-Russian————Ratio

1941
3rd—————551,000——————2,795,000———-5 to 1
4th—————280,000——————1,598,000———-5.7to 1
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by hfarrish »

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hfarrish
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by hfarrish »

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hfarrish
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by hfarrish »

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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Flaviusx »

There were a number of successful counterattacks prior to October, actually. Army and even Front sized counterattacks. Most notably by Timoshenko against AGC when the latter stalled during mid summer, and also Vatutin's counterattack near Novgorod, which bought Leningrad several weeks.
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Callistrid
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Callistrid »

Pelton,

it's still unrealistic, when only one rail line can supply an entire german front, with all his motorized troops, to concentrate their spearhead.
During the entire war, the german forces had a huge handcap supplying their troops via air, or by rail.
The looses are real, but the WITE supply, and air rules don't gives us real sight.

So pelton you can speak about the casulties, and wh we wish to "overpower" the soviets, but for example D-town, and Kharkov fall just on october/november, not on T04-06 like in WITE.
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: hfarrish



Historical losses on Eastern front, only includes KIA,MIA,WIA

——————German——————-Russian————Ratio

1941
3rd—————551,000——————2,795,000———-5 to 1
4th—————280,000——————1,598,000———-5.7to 1



Can you please for once share where this "historical" info is coming from?

They have this thing called google, put in Russian loses 1941 and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_ ... viet_Union

Kinda like Gandalf and his magic :)

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Callistrid
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Callistrid »

Pelton, in other way, the fairy queen supply the german forces on the first 10-15 turn :)
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RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Pelton, in other way, the fairy queen supply the german forces on the first 10-15 turn :)

It is the rule set and .05 nerfs that some.

In my games ( 1.08.3 )by end of 1941 we are at historical battle lines basicly so not to far off.

You have a better game that sims EF?

or just more negative?
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