Submarines and Naval Combat / FOW

[sPzAbt653]

I haven't started with 1.03.01 yet, usually I will finish current games before starting with a newer version.
I fully agree with you regarding 'getting the naval right'. Apparently it may be an impossibility and I offer as evidence that we haven't had one suggestion to make it like it is in some other game, which indicates to me that no other game has ever got it right either.
My contention has been that an IGO/UGO Naval Model that works with this scale and scope Land Model is impossible. However, the modders can spend time trying various things that may somehow assist so that B&H don't have to waste more of their valuable time trying to solve this endless enigma.

[Hubert Cater]

Agreed, it is definitely an area that has proven difficult to get just right and one that will please everyone for sure.

For some background on the current design and recent changes, we have always liked the idea of being able to move your own naval units around and organize your own fleets and ability to attempt to set up traps and/or manage screens for amphibious assaults and so on. Alternative designs such as the use of naval zones with the chance of naval engagement (automatically handled), arguably can produce more realistic results, but it is much more hands off and just not the type of design we were after.

In the past one criticism was the limited range of naval units relative to how far along they could actually move during a given game period or game turn, and so we adapted to allow for longer ranges as well as naval cruise ability which increases the range even further, but on the flip side you can then have the Star Trek effect of naval units warping in from a wider area of the map for new engagements, and or the situation as highlighted with this and other threads of naval units moving in from ports in let's say the Mediterranean and attacking recently discovered units, and then quickly retreating back to port without the ability of your opponent to do much about it.

In order to mitigate some of these issues the recent v1.03.01 Beta release attempts to address this by reducing the ability to attack and perform full retreats by lowering the available action points after combat as well as from surprise encounters and so on. Ideally this will still encourage players to use their naval units in Fleet like movements but also address some of the criticisms and shortcomings of the initial design from this release.

An alternative proposal was to have supply reduce for naval units on every turn while out at sea (currently this only drops from combat engagements) but we found that in the past when we did have this in place, while it was more realistic, it also became quite tedious in game as you constantly had to rotate your naval units in and out of port. For game play reasons and from all the negative feedback when we tried it before, we opted to not try it again this time around and to try an alternative solution as highlighted in the v1.03.01 Beta notes.

If you do get the chance to test out the recent v1.03.01 Beta please let us know what you think,
Hubert

[wallas]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

If you do not see a problem with the navy in general and you use subs to scout then the naval mechanics have forced you to adopt the wrong strategy. I would think that should present an easy to see problem.

No problem for me ! You either choose to have a operational navy/sub fleet or you choose to use your sub fleet strategically attacking MPP and park the surface fleet. As for using something wrong that is a subjective matter not worth a reply.

my 2 cents

[Guderian1940]

As mention in another post. I tried the 1.03.01 in a Head to head battle and think it is a very good improvement. Harder to just hit and run away. Before you could kill 3 or 4 or ships and move back to your ports eliminating the counterattack. With the beta version you can sortie but you will have reduced movement. Still enough to get away but in range to be attacked if your opponent can find them. Of course if you are close to ports you will still be able to use hit and run.

The bumping in to units now allows you to withdraw a few hexes away. You would not be automatically vulnerable by the contact. The next turn your opponent will need to find you.

You can also move through enemy units subject to an attack.

It appears you can do fleet movements without the fear of a sortie decimating your screen if not your main force with relative impunity. Still have to be careful. Operating close to enemy ports will still be deadly.

Would like to try PBEM to be subject to another persons tactics.

I would also mention that playing as the Allies with their Navy is a whole different set of issues and problems compared to the Axis. You need experience playing both. The use/needs of both navies is very different. The changes reduce the effectiveness of the Axis which was far to strong.

[sPzAbt653]

we have always liked the idea of being able to ... organize your own fleets

Thanks for this explanation, as I have always wondered why the various naval classes are modeled. It seemed to be a curious decision for a strategic scale game. That is why I have been experimenting with different attempts to reduce classes/types and/or amount of units.
Agree that Naval Zones, while a nice general feature, would not do SC3 justice.
Naval Units having to return to port for supply isn't always totally realistic because of the auxiliary supply vessels that were often available at sea, therefore returning to port was usually for repairs. So I for one am glad that we don't have to do this in SC3 [except for subs, which can raid with zero supply so not a big deal either].