Understandings rd factories

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand
One question: Which NF for Japan? I want to try with Nicks, but I'm unsure.

For IJA, Nick is the easy choice, but it comes VERY late. For the IJN, no real consensus becase4 they all lack armor, and unlike the Nick all have offsetting strengths and weaknesses.

The fundamental issue though is that the IJ gets so few NF groups. only a very few groups can convert. This then raises the question: how much of my RnD do I invest? Again, not an easy answer and not a lot of consensus.

ME? I do not invest RnD into NF's. I cannot justify the expense with so little return. I generally want Frank/SAM ASAP. I feel better fighters more than any other single thing are important. I build the best NF model as they arrive and supplement my NF groups with fighter groups on night CAP. Is this best? Huh, who knows? No consensus as I stated.

[VigaBrand]

Hi,
I think about R&D
5x Zero (only the A6M8)
5x Sam
5x George
5x Tojo
10x Frank
2x Nick
3 x Judy
5x Jack
What do you think about that? How will you change and what and why (why is important, so I could think about it).

[PaxMondo]

So, this is the 'spread' approach. A long popular method. You can expect 2 or maybe 3 months advancement on most of the models (simply look at normal arrival date and subtract). For Frank, 4 or 5 months early. There is probability here, so one might be 4 instead of 3 and one might less. Also SAM because it is so far out will likely be 3 or 4 months advance. These are all rough 'guesses', I haven't run any through my predictive model.

Models, BTW, are only giving you the 'average' result. What most players overlook is that the range of predictions is quite broad, and this increases significantly with the number of factories involved. Why? Conceptually because once the first factory repairs is is not pulling in the date. While the odds are long for any one factory to repair early, when you have several the odds for this necessarily shorten noticeably.

So, practically, I have gotten Sam as early as 3/44 and as late as 12/44 investing 18x30 RnD. As I stated, big spread. For me, in the game, this is appropriate. Why? Because IR?L these all happened through a series of breakthroughs.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

...
5x Zero (only the A6M8)
...

I personally believe this approach of skipping earlier models and going direct to the best gamey. After all later models in the same family evolve when design of current models are found to be inadequate. So until you have built a model how do you know there's a problem.

[rustysi]

Either way you have to watch your supply expenditure and don't crater your economy. Its easier to do that most think.

My current evolution has me quite worried indeed. Time will tell.

[VigaBrand]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

...
5x Zero (only the A6M8)
...

I personally believe this approach of skipping earlier models and going direct to the best gamey. After all later models in the same family evolve when design of current models are found to be inadequate. So until you have built a model how do you know there's a problem.

Quite right, but there are arguments for and against.
For the game, I personaly think the A6M8 isn't imba, so the US carrier fighters will be better than the A6M8 and so I think it will be okay. If I R&D a plane which will be stronger than the US planes, you will be right, but the A6M8 will only reduce the disadvantage.
I want to try it against the AI, so there will be not problem with my game partner
I understand your point and thanks for this.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

...
5x Zero (only the A6M8)
...

I personally believe this approach of skipping earlier models and going direct to the best gamey. After all later models in the same family evolve when design of current models are found to be inadequate. So until you have built a model how do you know there's a problem.

I respect your opinion, but I will just add some historical context.

For the IJ, a lot of models weren't about problems per se. Meaning the new models weren't addressing newly discovered problems. With only a couple of exceptions, every model put into production by IJ was designed by mid 1942. Preliminary engineering design, not final production. But, they already knew what they wanted. In some cases it just took inordinately long to finish.

- A fair number were 'politically' motivated; a certain vocal faction held sway. That historical fact could easily have been influenced by only one or two war casualties.
- Many were the result of design delays of other programs (like Sam). The longer the delay, the more they had to stretch a current production model. Best example here is the A6M. Everything after A6M3a was due to Sam delays. There are plenty of others. Oscar ...
- Sam itself was delayed for lack of a proper 2 stage induction design. This was (for over 3 years) due to a very bad case of NIH in one of the design bureau's. Again, a simple accident could have made a large change in the historical result (for the benefit of IJ). The plane design was essentially complete in April 42 (or so, my notes are on another computer). They had started on prototyping, but this was put one hold pending the engine ... for almost a year. The prototype was fine except that the engine was grossly under power. As in, on par with an Ha-35. It was another year before they actually had a powerplant with something close to design power. And another year before they could actually put the powerplant into production ... just a travesty of a program.
- In contrast to Sam, Frank and George were handled far better. Different engine design team that brought the Ha-45 through the same issues, but were able to 'adapt' better. [;)] The A7M couldn't use the Ha-45 as it was a much bigger plane needing a much bigger powerplant.

I could go on for some time, but I think you get the gist here ... just some thoughts for you, not disagreeing with your opinion in the least.

[VigaBrand]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

So, this is the 'spread' approach. A long popular method. You can expect 2 or maybe 3 months advancement on most of the models (simply look at normal arrival date and subtract). For Frank, 4 or 5 months early. There is probability here, so one might be 4 instead of 3 and one might less. Also SAM because it is so far out will likely be 3 or 4 months advance. These are all rough 'guesses', I haven't run any through my predictive model.

Models, BTW, are only giving you the 'average' result. What most players overlook is that the range of predictions is quite broad, and this increases significantly with the number of factories involved. Why? Conceptually because once the first factory repairs is is not pulling in the date. While the odds are long for any one factory to repair early, when you have several the odds for this necessarily shorten noticeably.

So, practically, I have gotten Sam as early as 3/44 and as late as 12/44 investing 18x30 RnD. As I stated, big spread. For me, in the game, this is appropriate. Why? Because IR?L these all happened through a series of breakthroughs.

How much did you spend on R&D and what should be the limit from your point of view?
18x30 RnD cost 540k supplies (only repair).
Maximum should be 74x30 Rnd which will be 2220k supplies.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I could go on for some time, but I think you get the gist here ... just some thoughts for you, not disagreeing with your opinion in the least.

My argument is purely due to how the current game plays not to any historical facts. After all I would not expect the Allies to send in there HBs at 100ft, I would not dream of doing so and there's lots of other house rules applied purely due to game restraints, or to be more precise lack of them.

But as you said it's all opinion.

[PaxMondo]

1. Eventually, you will change ALL factories, or almost all as they are not producing now what you want in 44.
2. You will eventually build up production rates to something north of 2000 AC/month. 2M supply + 3M supply in engines = 5M supply
3. IIRC there are 91 total AC factories for IJ in stock. Some mods adjust that total.
4. RnD repairs are not immediate, thy are spread out over time. In the case of A7M a very long time, in the case of Rufe, only a couple of months.
5 You start with about 3M supply in the empire, you cannot spend all of that as you need supply to 'finance' your early expansion. How much you need is very much dependent upon your tempo, your luck, and your goals/targets.
6. You cannot let supply in the HI drop below about 1M total supply without risk of crashing your economy, there needs to be enough excess to allow the resource AI to manage all of the base supply levels as they are used.

With these facts in mind you can create your build strategy. There are no cookie cutter answers, even for me. Each game is dependent upon the strategy to be taken. I rarely use the same strategy twice, so for every game I would have a different answer.

[Numdydar]

Absolutely correct.

One major beginner mistake as Japan is I have all these supplies at the start. So the temptation is to use them all up in '42. Expand factories, build up bases, etc.

You really need to decide to allocate how much supplies to each area you want to concentrate on and keep the economy running.

So if you want to do a lot of movement of war ships for example, then you need to reduce costs somewhere else. The Japanese systems are all on a tightrope and any one thing 'tugged' on more without making adjustments elsewhere will cause the whole thing to collapse.

For example, I tend to do a lot of R&D expansions. So by late '42 I turn off a lot of my engine/production factories to compensate. I turn them off when I have about 100+ AF's in the pool. While that is cutting things close, especially if a squadron has a 'bad' day, these are the choices you have to make in order to keep things going into the late war period. When things really start to go downhill for Japan. Even when you are doing things right [:)]

If you want 500 Zero's in the pool with PDU on, then reduce supply usage somewhere else so you can do that.

I track Japan's supply pool on a weekly basis. Any more often, I have found causes issues as the fluctuations are too variable. If supplies are dropping too fast. I make adjustments where I can. If going up and I need to expand somewhere, I make some VERY small adjustments and see what happens the following week. If still a positive uptick, then more small adjustments.

Just some ways to 'sip' Japan's pools versus looking at them as 'Big Gulps' [:D]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I could go on for some time, but I think you get the gist here ... just some thoughts for you, not disagreeing with your opinion in the least.

My argument is purely due to how the current game plays not to any historical facts. After all I would not expect the Allies to send in there HBs at 100ft, I would not dream of doing so and there's lots of other house rules applied purely due to game restraints, or to be more precise lack of them.

But as you said it's all opinion.

Ah, got it. Did not understand this in the context of HR's.

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

...
5x Zero (only the A6M8)
...

I personally believe this approach of skipping earlier models and going direct to the best gamey. After all later models in the same family evolve when design of current models are found to be inadequate. So until you have built a model how do you know there's a problem.

The A6M2 -> A6M8 upgrade which included equipping it with the 1500hp engine was proposed in 4/1942. It could have been in place easily by late 1942. As far as Japanese research is concerned, it is probably one of the most plausible results possible in game. The same is true of the Ki-100 and other re-engined aircraft.

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
..... to Frank production in the first couple of turns: something around 10-12 factories size 30.

There is no point to expanding the Frank in the first few turns. As has been point out before, repair of research factories slows down the further away you are from it due date. End result is factories tend to start producing research at approximately the same time no matter size. In my current game I'm experimenting by expanding some by a year and other by 18 months to see the effects. For the Frank it's going to be 18 Months, for the Tony below it was 1 year.

I'm currently at the end of Aug 42 and this is the current state of my Tony factories. The first Tony is due 2/43, Only one factory at Gifu started out as a Tony (size 22) all the others were changed at game start resulting in factory sizes below 3. Expansion occurred Feb 42. None have yet started to produce research points.

As a follow up to this research and to emphasis the randomness of the process all these factories are now researching. The first started on the 6 Sept 42 the last 30 Sept 42. Research is sitting at 75% and with 5 research points being generated per day it will advance one month to 1/43 in 5 days, advancing a months every 20 day thereafter. Game date is currently 6 Oct so:

11 Oct - due 1/43
31 Oct - due 12/42
20 Nov - due 11/42

3 months-ish early from initial expansion in Feb 42.

If I carried on like this the Ki-61-Ib due 9/43 would arrive 3/43,
Ki-61-Id due 4/44 in 9/43
Ki-61-II due 8/44 in 2/44
Ki-100 due 3/45 in 7/44

If my maths are right all arrive approx. 6 month early.

This is without any engine bonuses and by not skipping model.

If on the other hand I did skip models and went directly to the Ki-100 then you'd get it approx. 11/43 a full 8 months early than by not skipping models.

If I've got the maths wrong then let me know but don't shoot me.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: gmtello

Beginner question once u start a campaign there are multiple rd factories some available in few months and some later. I understand that the date refers when the factory starts producing so is it a good idea to stop repair of the planes u don't desire or change them to a dif plane? 2 some people advice to put 5 factories size 30 to work with rufe. The. Factories jpn start with have 9x0. Do u have to expand it to 30 from 9? I am a bit lost ( help please)

I would have to be off my meds to have 5 rufe r&d factories repaired to 30. [:-] About all they're good for in my view is hunting for search planes in the interstices between air bases. Incidentally I put my CS ships out of harm's way ASAP at the beginning of the war so they don't get sunk and I get 4 nice CVLs later.

Most r&d factories should be preserved as r&d factories so I turn them all to NO under production. Anytime I can convert a production factory to a new model I do. There are a few exceptions where it makes sense to go ahead with production. In my current game (Feb '42) I have one factory each set to go into production for the following models:

Emily Rufe Tojo Irving Tony Nick H6K2-L Mavis and H8K2-L Emily. Those are all unique planes that need their own factories fast. Eventually I'll convert an Oscar factory to Tojo but keep at least one Oscar factory.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: Aurorus
..... to Frank production in the first couple of turns: something around 10-12 factories size 30.

There is no point to expanding the Frank in the first few turns.

Totally disagree. Frank and Sam are two of the most important planes, perhaps most important planes Japan gets. You need to research them from day 1 pretty heavily if supplies at the base allow you to. If not from day 2 when the supplies are in.

[MakeeLearn]

Outsource....

[MakeeLearn]

Some info from " Once More into the Breach" AAR

tm.asp?m=2959613&mpage=16&key=

Here's an R&D image I put together that shows upgrades relative to airframes I intend to research at some point or have interest in.

[geofflambert]

I didn't read this whole thread but an important point is the 500 engine bonus to r&d. Increase production of the engines you need for future aircraft, especially fighters and decrease production of current planes that use the same engines.

[InfiniteMonkey]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: gmtello

Beginner question once u start a campaign there are multiple rd factories some available in few months and some later. I understand that the date refers when the factory starts producing so is it a good idea to stop repair of the planes u don't desire or change them to a dif plane? 2 some people advice to put 5 factories size 30 to work with rufe. The. Factories jpn start with have 9x0. Do u have to expand it to 30 from 9? I am a bit lost ( help please)

I would have to be off my meds to have 5 rufe r&d factories repaired to 30. [:-] About all they're good for in my view is hunting for search planes in the interstices between air bases. Incidentally I put my CS ships out of harm's way ASAP at the beginning of the war so they don't get sunk and I get 4 nice CVLs later.

Most r&d factories should be preserved as r&d factories so I turn them all to NO under production. Anytime I can convert a production factory to a new model I do. There are a few exceptions where it makes sense to go ahead with production. In my current game (Feb '42) I have one factory each set to go into production for the following models:

Emily Rufe Tojo Irving Tony Nick H6K2-L Mavis and H8K2-L Emily. Those are all unique planes that need their own factories fast. Eventually I'll convert an Oscar factory to Tojo but keep at least one Oscar factory.

JFB's do not build 5 A6M2-N R&D factories to get the Rufe. You build them because they repair fast and then can be turned over to research of the A6M line

A6M models can follow 3 R & D paths:

1. Research the A6M2-N (4/1942 avail) path (A6M2-N -> A6M5 -> A6M5b -> A6M5c -> A6M8)
The A6M2-N R&D factories are projected to repair and begin research on 2/17/1942. line.

2. Research the Sen Baku (2/1944 avail) path (A6M2 Sen Baku -> A6M5b -> A6M5c -> A6M8)
The A6M2 SenBaku R&D factories are projected to repair and begin research on 4/16/1943.

3. Research the A6M3 (6/1942 avail) path (A6M3 -> A6M3a -> A6M5 -> A6M5b -> A6M5c -> A6M8)
The A6M3 R&D factories are projected to repair and begin research on 3/28/1942.

Even if you research each model in the sequence instead of skipping, you will get the later models fastest by building and repairing Rufe factories.