Balance discussion

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Huw Jones
Is that taken into consideration with the overall fuel/supply situation for the Germans in 41?

Yes there is a specific rail supply modifier that gets worse the more east you get, but better over time. However there is an ongoing debate at what levels this should be set at and it has been adjusted in past patches.

[Blubel2]

German construction bns also have very limited construction value.

[chaos45]

Im sure its better than 0.....

Its why all soviet engineer and sapper units are now useless after the nerfs lol.

Only the railroad units have any value as engineers now for the soviet side.

For the germans those construction units are huge in 1941 as they allow you to get all the side rails repaired.

[Denniss]

It's very likely the construction value in this menu is rounded down (for display purposes only)

[MarauderPL]

Having dedicated (and actually effective) Soviet support unit that speeds up digging would be very helpful. With a lot of stuff being not 100% accurate we could close one eye on the fact that more experienced crew digs faster/better. Change the threshold of how the construction value is calculated for low-exp units (so it doesnt start at 0 or close to 0). Make the connection log not linear. Or something else

The main problem for the soviets right now is that one mistake - misplaced defensive line leads to a massive encirclement. With better/faster forts the Germans would burn more MP battering through the front and have less movement for a deep drive.

The tables have turned a bit, a year+ ago the general consensus was that the game is basically won by the soviets if a german makes one mistake. Now its the other way round (not entirely, but this kind of vibe). Of course I am talking about the more veteran players. The less experienced germans (like no lvov pocket) have basically no chance at winning the game against any opponent.

[Stelteck]

One point : Having sapper regiments that downgrade to sapper battalion soon is a newbie trap, because people will create them for 2 PP and they will worth only 1 PP.
Something have to be done about it. (At least do not allow to create sapper regiment early).

[topeverest]

very interesting discussion.

While new to this game, I have designed in other arenas. What I hear is that the experts in this game generally get the same outcome, and most others get the opposite. Players are looking for changes to curb experienced Germany capabilities while not compromising existing balance measures for less experienced players.

This does not seem to be a case where minor changes in certain rules will satisfy all conditions for all players. Rather, it seems like the experienced players are suggesting incremental options that can be chosen at game start that push advantage to one side or the other - and those options today are buried in the code. Let me suggest that pulling out three to five of these key variables for selection as options at start can be a solution that will allow better balance across the vast combinations of player types.

And BTW - this is an outstanding simulation with outstanding player and design support. Easily a top 5 game, and I have ben gaming for more than 40 years.

[EwaldvonKleist]

Good comment topeverest.

[galex]

If a german player understand supply system very well then he can fuel their tanks much better than historical level.
their is a couple of things he can do :
1. optimize rail repair plan
2. using port supply
3. rotating Panzers
4. HQBU

If a german player can do all this things correctly he will have great advantage in 1941.

Most games ending in Soviet winning is because of most mid-level german player do not able to do all this things. on the other hand no matter soviet player understand this or not dos not make any difference.

SO I think the problem is that the game provided the possibility of much better supply level to top german player. IMO this caused the unbalance issue.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Nada

[galex]

So my point here is that the game should let the player forced on combat strategies, force deployment etc.
Historically speaking,Supply situation can hardly be changed by OKH or STAVKA. But by far as I can see in WITE the finally outcome of the war is mainly depended on:
1. If German know how to manage his supply in 1941
2. If Soviet know how to manage his truck in 1943/1944

it makes me frustrated that the most important things is not thinking troop deployment but reading the supply section in the manual.

[galex]

Yes, German player have many tricks to fuel his panzers. It is hardly to say if that is gamey But i think it will be the best that the game mechanic simply don't provide the chance to do so.

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: galex
reading the supply section in the manual.

Welcome to real war [:)]

[EwaldvonKleist]

@Galex:

Historically speaking,Supply situation can hardly be changed by OKH or STAVKA

There was quite some unused potential in the Axis logistics in 1941, which was wasted by bad organisation, which must be mostly attributed to Hitler's inability or reluctance to set up a unified and efficient command and control system on the highest level.
The motor pool (Großtransportraum) and the railway (Reichsbahn) were not under a unified logistical command, but separated. Cooperation between the two branches was possible, but not anchored in the organisation.
Preparation of economical exploitation of the country used resources better used for the Wehrmacht.
The advancing army used and destroyed resources which were essential for the transportation system, like wooden walls for protection from snow, which were used for heating.
The constant changes and uncertainty of objectives also contributed to friction in the system.
Sources:
The German Empire and the Second World War, Vol. 4, the section on logistics and the description of operations in 1941+the part on the planning and the economical exploitation.
Local population was not sufficiently integrated in the transport system for political and ideological reasons.
Logistik im Russlandfeldzug, die Rolle der Eisenbahn bei der Planung, Vorbereitung und Durchführung des deutschen Angriffes auf die Sowjetunion.

[chaos45]

EvK- I would say the political issues should not be modifiable or fixable for a game based on the purely military situation.

You take away Stalin or Hitler and their political beliefs and WW2 might not even happen.

So basically as a military commander you are constrained by the politics of your nation. Clausewitz I do believe stated this in his book. War is an extension of politics. Its one of the problems with Hitlers war on Russia- it had no end goal other than the annihilation of the Soviet Union and the people therein. Thus if that is your political goal makes it very difficult to suddenly be like well if only we had treated these people we see as sub-humans better the war might have went better.

That is far outside the scope of this game IMO.

Also I strongly disagree with assumptions or statements after the fact that the German logistics system could have done better. The German logistics section of the Army/ G4 in US army terms projected massive lack of supplies past Smolensk and Kiev....in fact I think it was even after Minsk they said they would have difficulties. This is the official logistics professionals estimates. Those professional soldiers don't just make stuff up for reports they make those projects based on assets on hand and projected.

As well the German rail network was already very stretched just servicing Europe and Balkans adding the extension of rails into Russia simply stressed it even more to the point that it operated less and less efficiently as the war went on....not more efficiently.

An well Fuel---even if you pretend the germans have enough trains and trucks to maintain a supply network across Europe and deep into Russia- which they didn't. They never produced enough fuel to cover their own military, civilian, production, and training requirements. Operation Blue was to capture fuel because German had run out in effect. It also even restricted operations to starts and stops during Blue due to lack of Fuel.

The game is currently the dream situation of german logistics and in no way represents a realistic situation on that front.

[beender]

I find the discussion here is very interesting and illuminating, though it seems to me that sometimes two different issues are mixed up and addressed together, namely: game balance and historical accuracy. I don't think they are interchangeable ideas and that you get one then automatically you get the other.

To argue that the game is currently too much in favor of one side does not entail one also advocating that in history that side suffered much worse situation (though that is surely possible). On the other hand, accurately reflecting the historical realities may well lead to an unbalanced game, almost unwinnable by certain side. After all, it will be quite a coincidence if Germany and Soviet, as it turned out to be, were actually on an perfectly equal, balanced footing. Therefore, as a game rather than a history simulation software (or so I suppose[:'(]), WITE probably should place balance at first priority. Just because one thing is not historical does not necessarily mean we can't have that in WITE. Right off my head I can think of Starcraft as an good example: in that game a marine can shoot down a battlecruiser if given enough time, which is certainly impossible in the world of "real" Starcraft, but for game issues, every unit is "balanced." WITE may have to do the same.

[chaos45]

Beender, I concur with your balance thoughts...but a lot of things are already very much balanced in favor the Germans over historical. The Lvov/Super Lvov move being one that historically never happened and I would wager couldn't have happened as the thousands of Soviet tanks actually put up quite a fight historically. This move alone gives the Germans a massive edge over anything that happenend "historically"

As well German losses are much lower than historical which is allowing the panzer/motorized divisions to keep a very high CV and continue to be the leading edge of the spear turn after turn. Again a gamism and not based on historical results.

Next soviet replacement rates are much lower than hisorical making the Soviets have less men/units to deal with the above non-historical advantages the Germans have.

Then in addition to that you have a German logistics/supply rate that is obviously much better than historical when units often had to spend weeks waiting on supplies/fuel to continue the advance.

Then you also have that in real life/historical Soviet counter-attacks actually delayed and cost the Germans alot of losses---something the soviets cannot do in this game.

So alot of the Historical facts have already been manipulated to give the Germans a chance to win much greater than history.

I agree with you need both sides to have a chance, but at this point the Germans chance has been pushed to an almost absolute due to the changes of the last couple patches. You can look back before alot of artificial manipulation- which increased German supply and reduced Soviet CV even more....that skilled German players were still doing well and winning games prior to patch .07

I understand some system issues have been fixed since then but balance has also been heavily weighted in facor of an axis victory when they could already win in the hands of a skilled play prior to all the additional nerfs to Soviets and buffs to Germans in the last 3-4 Major patches.

[morvael]

At this point I can only ask for your patience. It will be best to return to this discussion after the next patch

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Nada

[morvael]

At lest until Blizzard hits in all four weather zones