Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

[Zemke]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Zemke - a depot with an HQ on it is that level of supply depot. The depot has a truck pool that will transfer supplies out to the combat units. If the combat units still do not have enough supply, they can send some of their trucks back to the depot to help transfer supply to itself. Note that sometimes these trips are pretty long as they may be going to a depot further back than the local one. When the combat unit uses its own trucks it will take a MP hit for the turn - sometimes a very substantial one.

So the short of it is that the combat units have the supplies arrive at their locations. But if there is not enough supply and you have a group of empty trucks, you ship those trucks off to 'salvage' some supply in the rear. There were times in the Battle of Smolensk where some of the panzer divisions were sending trucks back to Germany itself for supplies.

I understand that what you are saying. Just stating (if you are responding to my previous statement) doctrine in the US Army/NATO for the supply chain is Depot-HQ-Unit, and what "agency" is moving them depends on the situation. Sometimes the unit itself is picking them up at HQ's supply dumps, and if the unit is say a high-priority unit or the need is great, the supplies are "pushed" to the unit. But the chain is Depot-HQ-Unit. In this game, if a HQ is sitting on a depot, that is great, but I don't think most depots had Corps HQ on them, unless they were the Corps own depot, which you could say in the game is, I will grant you that.

Granted, German units did send trucks back to Germany, but this was NOT their doctrine, or the norm, rather the exception, and frankly was probably not authorized by higher HQ. More than likely, desperate units in need of select hard-to-get items or parts acting on their own initiative.

If you think I disagree with the current way the game models the FLOW of supplies, you would be correct, as I think it is not historically or doctrinally correct. It should be NSS - Depots - Army HQ - Corps HQ - Unit. But hey, programing, time all that, I get it, compromises have to be made I guess.

[dudefan]

Also from pure gameplay perspective, right now hqs are underwhelming since the only job is to keep them on depots and within command range. Everything else doesnt matter.

I can sit them behind rivers, lakes mountains whatnot... as long as 5 hexes it is fine.

Would be nice if the position of the hq within the command range matters besides sitting on a depot (where a single corps hq doesnt really help a lot anyway)

[Great_Ajax]

I have to agree with Zemke on this topic. The game could do a much better job in presenting the player (commander) with more streamlined information to assist in decision making. I know there is a sizeable portion of the player base that likes to sort through pages and pages of data to agonize over every min-max combination in the game but there is also a sizeable portion that would appreciate less detail and more useful metrics in order to concentrate on playing the game in a reasonable amount of time. Figuring out supply efficiencies should not be a process for the player. There are plenty of ways that metrics could be converted into several staff screens - logistics, personnel, operations and intelligence to enhance an understanding. What would a commander care about during a briefing?

Example, the player could set Armies or Army Groups into stances - assault, general offensive, defensive or sustainment which translates to a percentage of supply needs being met. Assault would require 150% supply, Offensive 100%, defensive 75% and sustainment 50% as examples. He can then run a report to see how well his subordinate commands are meeting these stances. At a glance, the player could determine how well supplied his units are according to his plan.

[Erik Rutins]

We actually made some pretty significant improvements in that area (actionable feedback to the player) since WITE1 and WITW, but there is always room for more improvement. Feel free to post your suggestions in the feature suggestions sub-forum. We've already got quite a few ideas that didn't make it into the release as far as improving some of the top level information, but input from players now that the game is released is always valuable to help us realize what we may have taken for granted as understood.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Also from pure gameplay perspective, right now hqs are underwhelming since the only job is to keep them on depots and within command range. Everything else doesnt matter.

I can sit them behind rivers, lakes mountains whatnot... as long as 5 hexes it is fine.

Would be nice if the position of the hq within the command range matters besides sitting on a depot (where a single corps hq doesnt really help a lot anyway)

worth stressing, HQs play a major role in the logistics system. Realise its not the unit-HQ-depot model that is mentioned above but remember any routine in this game is full of leadership rolls etc, so misplace your HQs so as to weaken that process and you'll get far more failed supply outcomes

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Example, the player could set Armies or Army Groups into stances - assault, general offensive, defensive or sustainment which translates to a percentage of supply needs being met. Assault would require 150% supply, Offensive 100%, defensive 75% and sustainment 50% as examples. He can then run a report to see how well his subordinate commands are meeting these stances. At a glance, the player could determine how well supplied his units are according to his plan.

I have 4th PzG on the assault (SupPri4), 2nd PzG on general offensive (SupPri3), 4th Army on defensive (SupPri1) and RHG HQs on sustainment (SupPri0). I can check these HQ's subordinates supply situation at a glance from CR with a couple of clicks (fuel/ammo/supply percentage/received). Once I get the hang of it, I can use logistics view to see how the depots are delivering supplies to these HQs.

I would however appreciate if the depot bars would show meaningful ratios of received/stored/sent freight. One nice improvement would also be on the depot network view ("8"): if I select a unit, only that unit's depot deliveries (all of them) would show, and if I select an HQ, all of it's subordinates primary depot deliveries would be only seen. Having all the depot delivery lines on screen is sometimes a bit messy, but you could have that when no unit is selected.

I'm not a logistics expert, but I'd probably also prefer a "depot => HQ => unit" delivery system, where the HQ would be an intermediate truck stop. It would create an interesting logistical puzzle on HQ <=> unit level (which is how it was in WitE1?), and would also give benefit for units being closer to HQ (3 hex rule => no trucks). But I'm quite OK with the current system

ORIGINAL: loki100

worth stressing, HQs play a major role in the logistics system. Realise its not the unit-HQ-depot model that is mentioned above but remember any routine in this game is full of leadership rolls etc, so misplace your HQs so as to weaken that process and you'll get far more failed supply outcomes

Still the major role is just sticking the HQ in command range. Or is there something more to it I'm missing?

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: Zemke

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Zemke - a depot with an HQ on it is that level of supply depot. The depot has a truck pool that will transfer supplies out to the combat units. If the combat units still do not have enough supply, they can send some of their trucks back to the depot to help transfer supply to itself. Note that sometimes these trips are pretty long as they may be going to a depot further back than the local one. When the combat unit uses its own trucks it will take a MP hit for the turn - sometimes a very substantial one.

So the short of it is that the combat units have the supplies arrive at their locations. But if there is not enough supply and you have a group of empty trucks, you ship those trucks off to 'salvage' some supply in the rear. There were times in the Battle of Smolensk where some of the panzer divisions were sending trucks back to Germany itself for supplies.

I understand that what you are saying. Just stating (if you are responding to my previous statement) doctrine in the US Army/NATO for the supply chain is Depot-HQ-Unit, and what "agency" is moving them depends on the situation. Sometimes the unit itself is picking them up at HQ's supply dumps, and if the unit is say a high-priority unit or the need is great, the supplies are "pushed" to the unit. But the chain is Depot-HQ-Unit. In this game, if a HQ is sitting on a depot, that is great, but I don't think most depots had Corps HQ on them, unless they were the Corps own depot, which you could say in the game is, I will grant you that.

Granted, German units did send trucks back to Germany, but this was NOT their doctrine, or the norm, rather the exception, and frankly was probably not authorized by higher HQ. More than likely, desperate units in need of select hard-to-get items or parts acting on their own initiative.

If you think I disagree with the current way the game models the FLOW of supplies, you would be correct, as I think it is not historically or doctrinally correct. It should be NSS - Depots - Army HQ - Corps HQ - Unit. But hey, programing, time all that, I get it, compromises have to be made I guess.

I agree that the information needs to be presented better, but the Depot-Division system does actually represent German practice pretty well.

The Korps did not have a lot in the way of truck resources, and were not normally in the chain. Instead it was the Army level that delivered supplies to Forward Depots, from which the Divisions would then directly draw.


Korps
Die Armeekorps waren in die Versorgung der ihnen unterstellten Divisionen nicht eingeschaltet und hatten nur die fest zugeteilten Korpstruppen zu versorgen. Dazu verfügten sie unter dem Befehl des Korps-Nachschubführers über:
1 Feldpostamt
1-2 Kraftwagenkolonnen (30 t)
1 Betriebsstoffkolonne (25 cbm)
1 Werkstattzug
Für die Bearbeitung der Versorgungslage war im Korpsstab der Quartiermeister (Generalstabsoffizier) verantwortlich

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Sol ... gung-R.htm

As the Army level did not have that may trucks either, the integral Division supply units would potentially have to go directly to the Army level depots.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: squatter

Here's the southerly depot's numbers.

What surprises me here are the received/stored/sent numbers are 8k vs 19k vs 4.5k yet the three bars are the same size?

That leaves me slightly dumbfounded and confused. (cont...)

Thank you for pointing this out, I wasn't paying attention and didn't notice this. Now that I'm looking I see that I'm sending loads of supply to 1 priority depots that I want to have some supply, but I don't want to fill them to capacity. It seems that if there are too many Priority 1 depots around, they leach supply away before anything gets to distant Priority 4 ones.

[Nix77]

Any idea if the priority 1 depots all around the europe are actually useful? There's loads of them in Germany and Poland if I let the AI do the depot allocation? Most of the ports (Rostock etc) are storing huge amounts of freight and not sending anything, even though the Baltic ports are set to import. Just a few ports decided to send anything out.

Should the rule of thumb be something like this:

Furthest bomber/transport field depots, pocket cleanup areas: 1
Low priority front depots, airfield depots: 2
High priority front depots: 3
Assault front depots: 4
Everything else: 0

All exporting ports to 0 until they get emptied and your import docks start getting low received freight numbers.

[Medicusa]

Does anybody know how I can put more trucks into my depots? The manual says trucks come from capacity if I recall right but this doesnt work at all for me. I always have thousands trucks in my pool and still depots supply units with unit trucks for months.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Any idea if the priority 1 depots all around the europe are actually useful? There's loads of them in Germany and Poland if I let the AI do the depot allocation? Most of the ports (Rostock etc) are storing huge amounts of freight and not sending anything, even though the Baltic ports are set to import. Just a few ports decided to send anything out.

Should the rule of thumb be something like this:

Furthest bomber/transport field depots, pocket cleanup areas: 1
Low priority front depots, airfield depots: 2
High priority front depots: 3
Assault front depots: 4
Everything else: 0

All exporting ports to 0 until they get emptied and your import docks start getting low received freight numbers.

aye, thats a basically sound layout. I wouldn't worry too much if a few depots around Berlin etc were full, for the most part that is not freight that can move further east (rail cap limits), but in general you may as well have as little as possible locked up away from the NSS - at least till the end game

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

Does anybody know how I can put more trucks into my depots? The manual says trucks come from capacity if I recall right but this doesnt work at all for me. I always have thousands trucks in my pool and still depots supply units with unit trucks for months.

Double check that these trucks are in the active or the transit pool, a lot that are not allocated are in that sort of transition state. In the main it seems to take a while for trucks in reserve to move on, in part as the depots have a limited capacity for truck allocation

[Medicusa]

The starting screen says they are in the pool, sometimes over 4000 trucks. And with a capacity of 60000 shouldnt I get 6000 trucks as a limit in this depot? I remember that formula from the manual. But I never get them.

[Nix77]

Theoretical question: All depots on the map are empty, except the NSS ofcourse.

(1) If I set a single depot on the front to priority 4, would it get all that it can from the NSS, limited to railcap it counts from 30hex radius?

(2) If in addition I would set a single depot somewhere in between NSS and front, would that in any way help push more freight to the front depot, or would the front depot still get the same amount of freight?

(3) Am I right that adding depots doesn't increase the freight hauling capacity in any way, they're basically just a way to control where that capacity is directed to? Or do I actually need a depot in 30hex range of a railyard to "activate" that capacity? Any other depot covering that railyard would just then share the capacity, not increase it?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

Theoretical question: All depots on the map are empty, except the NSS ofcourse.

(1) If I set a single depot on the front to priority 4, would it get all that it can from the NSS, limited to railcap it counts from 30hex radius?

(2) If in addition I would set a single depot somewhere in between NSS and front, would that in any way help push more freight to the front depot, or would the front depot still get the same amount of freight?

(3) Am I right that adding depots doesn't increase the freight hauling capacity in any way, they're basically just a way to control where that capacity is directed to? Or do I actually need a depot in 30hex range of a railyard to "activate" that capacity? Any other depot covering that railyard would just then share the capacity, not increase it?

1 - yes, the only constraint will be that depot's processing capacity

2 - not directly, but it may help use up the rail way delivery capacity so there is more supply nearby for your combat units

3 - yes, only caveat is that a railyard more than 30 hexes from a depot is unlikely to be of much use, but then its going to be a in a geographically isolated region or over into western Germany

[Medicusa]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
Lets see if it works now Here you can see I have trucks in the pool but they didnt use them in the depot where are they needed.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
Lets see if it works now Here you can see I have trucks in the pool but they didnt use them in the depot where are they needed.

well that looks like its working as designed to me, you have depot that has just been established, supplying a massive airforce (far too much to be honest) so it is using what it has, you have less than 900 in the pool (& many of those are going to be in the transit not the active pool), so your units are having to compensate.

Reduce that airforce commitment, that is the root of your problem, give it a turn or two and it should settle down.

You have 98% of your truck stock in active use, that small bit in the reserve pool really isn't the main problem

[Medicusa]

I do not think that is the case here. But there are 2 question still, why didnt they still use the so needed rest of the pool trucks? And why is that every turn regardless of what I have there? See this turn for example:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
I have over 2000 trucks in the pool, the depot can receive more freight but for some reason the system things it doesnt (railway is green). And then instead of using the 2000 trucks from the pool it uses 2400 trucks from the units. Why does it not use the pool trucks? It cant be a freight issue.

[dudefan]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Also from pure gameplay perspective, right now hqs are underwhelming since the only job is to keep them on depots and within command range. Everything else doesnt matter.

I can sit them behind rivers, lakes mountains whatnot... as long as 5 hexes it is fine.

Would be nice if the position of the hq within the command range matters besides sitting on a depot (where a single corps hq doesnt really help a lot anyway)

worth stressing, HQs play a major role in the logistics system. Realise its not the unit-HQ-depot model that is mentioned above but remember any routine in this game is full of leadership rolls etc, so misplace your HQs so as to weaken that process and you'll get far more failed supply outcomes

Sorry to bring it up again.

I checked the manual it certainly says hat there is no linear benefit from having a corps hq closer than 5 hexes. I was stating this already in the post above. So your comment makes no sense unless the manual is wrong?

I wrote that it doesnt matter where you park your corps hq WITHIN command range (5hexes) and i think this makes corps hq a bit underwhelming , since there is no challenge to get them within 5 hexes at all.


Also there is ridiculous stuff possible like parking them behind mountains, rivers, lakes or in swamps... as long as it is wihin 5 hexes of his Units, corps hqs job is done. Which is boring.

maybe they can add trucks when they are closer to the units? Or better command rolls when closer to the units or depots? Or anything?

Right now they are just busy work with no strategic decision value (parking them on depots if possible is no strategic decision...)

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

I do not think that is the case here. But there are 2 question still, why didnt they still use the so needed rest of the pool trucks? And why is that every turn regardless of what I have there? See this turn for example:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
I have over 2000 trucks in the pool, the depot can receive more freight but for some reason the system things it doesnt (railway is green). And then instead of using the 2000 trucks from the pool it uses 2400 trucks from the units. Why does it not use the pool trucks? It cant be a freight issue.

see the discussion above in this thread. Supply deliver is a combination of having the depot capacity to process (which you have) and the rail capacity to deliver to that depot (which you don't - green lines are not always good).

your core problem is that massive airforce commitment to an advanced depot that is also trying to supply the bulk of your army. Move it back, maybe leave one fighter formation in position for protection but you can't play 1941 as the Germans with a massive deployment of the LW to your forward depots - if you do then your ground units don't get freight from that depot.

the other suspicion is you have the supply priority of your HQs too high, lower it and see if that means more trucks stay in the units.

from both your images, I'd say its a demand issue, you are demanding too much freight from Pskov than you can deliver.

ORIGINAL: dudefan

...


Sorry to bring it up again.

I checked the manual it certainly says hat there is no linear benefit from having a corps hq closer than 5 hexes. I was stating this already in the post above. So your comment makes no sense unless the manual is wrong?

I wrote that it doesnt matter where you park your corps hq WITHIN command range (5hexes) and i think this makes corps hq a bit underwhelming , since there is no challenge to get them within 5 hexes at all.


Also there is ridiculous stuff possible like parking them behind mountains, rivers, lakes or in swamps... as long as it is wihin 5 hexes of his Units, corps hqs job is done. Which is boring.

maybe they can add trucks when they are closer to the units? Or better command rolls when closer to the units or depots? Or anything?

Right now they are just busy work with no strategic decision value (parking them on depots if possible is no strategic decision...)

my apologies I misread what you wrote and missed the caveat.

but given the wider value of HQs to the game system, I'm not sure I agree with your last sentence

[Medicusa]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

I do not think that is the case here. But there are 2 question still, why didnt they still use the so needed rest of the pool trucks? And why is that every turn regardless of what I have there? See this turn for example:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
I have over 2000 trucks in the pool, the depot can receive more freight but for some reason the system things it doesnt (railway is green). And then instead of using the 2000 trucks from the pool it uses 2400 trucks from the units. Why does it not use the pool trucks? It cant be a freight issue.

see the discussion above in this thread. Supply deliver is a combination of having the depot capacity to process (which you have) and the rail capacity to deliver to that depot (which you don't - green lines are not always good).

your core problem is that massive airforce commitment to an advanced depot that is also trying to supply the bulk of your army. Move it back, maybe leave one fighter formation in position for protection but you can't play 1941 as the Germans with a massive deployment of the LW to your forward depots - if you do then your ground units don't get freight from that depot.

the other suspicion is you have the supply priority of your HQs too high, lower it and see if that means more trucks stay in the units.

from both your images, I'd say its a demand issue, you are demanding too much freight from Pskov than you can deliver.

ORIGINAL: dudefan

...


Sorry to bring it up again.

I checked the manual it certainly says hat there is no linear benefit from having a corps hq closer than 5 hexes. I was stating this already in the post above. So your comment makes no sense unless the manual is wrong?

I wrote that it doesnt matter where you park your corps hq WITHIN command range (5hexes) and i think this makes corps hq a bit underwhelming , since there is no challenge to get them within 5 hexes at all.


Also there is ridiculous stuff possible like parking them behind mountains, rivers, lakes or in swamps... as long as it is wihin 5 hexes of his Units, corps hqs job is done. Which is boring.

maybe they can add trucks when they are closer to the units? Or better command rolls when closer to the units or depots? Or anything?

Right now they are just busy work with no strategic decision value (parking them on depots if possible is no strategic decision...)

my apologies I misread what you wrote and missed the caveat.

but given the wider value of HQs to the game system, I'm not sure I agree with your last sentence

see the discussion above in this thread. Supply deliver is a combination of having the depot capacity to process (which you have) and the rail capacity to deliver to that depot (which you don't - green lines are not always good).

your core problem is that massive airforce commitment to an advanced depot that is also trying to supply the bulk of your army. Move it back, maybe leave one fighter formation in position for protection but you can't play 1941 as the Germans with a massive deployment of the LW to your forward depots - if you do then your ground units don't get freight from that depot.

the other suspicion is you have the supply priority of your HQs too high, lower it and see if that means more trucks stay in the units.

from both your images, I'd say its a demand issue, you are demanding too much freight from Pskov than you can deliver.

I am sorry, but after searching above I still couldnt figure out why green rail lines are not good. Doesnt green mean they work and have enough capicity left? Black is broken or not used, yellow and orange and red is higher use. So why do I have a rail line problem?

If my rail line have 12k capacity and I use around 2k every week, then it looks pretty fine to me. Also the problem never was to move enough supply. I always get 100% of what I need. The problem only is for several turns that they do not use enough trucks in my depots even though I have them plenty in my pool.