The Rumble in the Tundra, a Vet (Sov) JB (Axis) rematch

[Veterin]

Lots of good discussion here on mechanics which is great. Aside from the trucks/fatigue, keep in mind that any interdiction at all removes admin movement (even if it's less than the number icon on the map but greater than zero). You just need to have the "star" in the hex, consistent with partisan activity

Admin movement can be pretty substantial, especially along roads. Remove admin movement over a few hexes in a row over multiple turns and it all adds up (higher truck losses, increased unit fatigue, increased supply/fuel usage, slower infantry to frontlines etc)

2.png (12.37 KiB) Viewed 1398 times

[ShaggyHiK]

The ban on bombing airfields other than T1 is a ban on war within a war.

A bad player wants to ban it instead of fixing it. The average player wants to take advantage of this option, the good player will find a way to counteract this.

And there are indeed ways to counteract this, but the players don't want to use their brains, they want to do primitive things without thinking.

[Veterin]

The ban on bombing airfields other than T1 is a ban on war within a war.

A bad player wants to ban it instead of fixing it. The average player wants to take advantage of this option, the good player will find a way to counteract this.

And there are indeed ways to counteract this, but the players don't want to use their brains, they want to do primitive things without thinking.

I bet you play with temp motorisation on too

[ShaggyHiK]

I bet you play with temp motorisation on too

There is German aviation on the map if you don't understand how to use it and need motorization instead. Well, this is your God-given right.

[K62_]

Thank you for sharing in Jason & Vet's AAR

Good to see you back on the forum. I hope all is well.

[M60A3TTS]

Huh? Is not a 2 interdiction on map a 2 on the table meaning +1 mp to motorized and "NA" to foot? So on and so forth on the table?

inerdiction.png

That was just about my reaction when Joel told me a long while back. Here is an example of interdiction level 4. If you were to hover over the hex, it says Air Interdict Soviet:41.



Regarding the other effects, it's good to see people testing things out to help get the results they are looking for.

[ShaggyHiK]

Regarding the other effects, it's good to see people testing things out to help get the results they are looking for.

It's good, but! It turns out the following:

The player comes up with how to destroy the airfield.
At the same time, his opponent does nothing:
"Ban, it's not fair!!!"

Soon we should expect a ban on the interdict when the players learn how to use it effectively.

And it turns out, you can’t use attack aircraft to attack units, you can’t use strikes on airfields, you can’t interdict either. Only a fair fight, wall to wall, or rather wall to wave of corpses.

[Veterin]

Regarding the other effects, it's good to see people testing things out to help get the results they are looking for.

It's good, but! It turns out the following:

The player comes up with how to destroy the airfield.
At the same time, his opponent does nothing:
"Ban, it's not fair!!!"

Soon we should expect a ban on the interdict when the players learn how to use it effectively.

And it turns out, you can’t use attack aircraft to attack units, you can’t use strikes on airfields, you can’t interdict either. Only a fair fight, wall to wall, or rather wall to wave of corpses.

No one is talking about airfield bombing. We've been discussing interdiction in this is an AAR. Please post your dribble elsewhere

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Huh? Is not a 2 interdiction on map a 2 on the table meaning +1 mp to motorized and "NA" to foot? So on and so forth on the table?

inerdiction.png

That was just about my reaction when Joel told me a long while back. Here is an example of interdiction level 4. If you were to hover over the hex, it says Air Interdict Soviet:41.



Regarding the other effects, it's good to see people testing things out to help get the results they are looking for.

Oh my!!! How I have forgotten things in the few months I have been gone. Thank you M60 for waking my dumb butt up and making me remember now. That larger number are the number of strikes that were done and the small number from those strikes are the interdiction numbers. DANG the stuff you forget so quickly in old age . Thank you M60!!!

I think the best is to interdict the river on both sides for maximum effect on motorized(If I remember correctly . At least that is what I did in my game against Jason below. So yeah Veterin going for the sub-effects instead of the MP's in his interdiction. Going to be interesting to hear from Jason if Vets interdiction was effective in anyway since MP's were really not a concern. Jason was it?

Is there a limit now on the number of strikes per hex since I have been gone? I believe there was talk of it.

Interdiction river.png (698.53 KiB) Viewed 1269 times

[jasonbroomer]

Great to have some discussion on the issue, comments are most welcome.

I confess that I'm with Shaggy on this. I was certainly fearing a raid on Riga port, which was the principal reason that AS was flying over the area.

Certainly I didn't discern any impact of Vet interdiction on t2. It was not heavy enough to cause MP loss (which would impact on supply). Admin movement bonus may have been removed in some hexes but this is not required for moving across a clear open ground hex. The dispersed nature of the interdiction raids means that only very occasional did interdiction occur in non-clear hexes. Usually the affected hexes can be just bypassed. Unfortunately, the effort required to cause even the minimal level of interdiction on a non clear hex is material (I suspect that it proportional to the level of buggerance that it causes the Axis eg harder to interdict rough ground than light woods, but I don't really know).

Vet has been regularly flying dispersed levels of interdiction. In later turns there were a couple of instances where it has caused me to expend an additional MP or two. There may have been a incremental loss of trucking but I don't know how to prove this either way. My trucking losses have been low

The impact has been marginal over the first 10 turns. It has obliged me to run AS, but frankly I would be running this anyway. It must be better to employ the Long Range Air Command to do this than not flying at all. There may be marginally more effective missions though.

It does come at a cost though as it will rarely be possible to escort.

T3 AGN SoT Widespread Soviet interdiction came at a cost.png (543.79 KiB) Viewed 1236 times

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I conclude that everyone who has unsubscribed here on the topic of aviation does not understand anything about the use of aviation.

Everything rests on the following 2 screenshots:

You do not need to worry about losses if your planes have nothing to shoot down.
You can also do anything as long as your planes don't get shot down.

It is funny how I said,"I have to say it "is" easily achievable to get excellent bombing results against bombing airfields after turn 1 with good results"

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p5078517

and you were pretty darn skeptical and basically said it can not be done.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 9#p5078589

Seems you have found the answer. Glad you figured it out

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Great to have some discussion on the issue, comments are most welcome.

I confess that I'm with Shaggy on this. I was certainly fearing a raid on Riga port, which was the principal reason that AS was flying over the area.

Certainly I didn't discern any impact of Vet interdiction on t2. It was not heavy enough to cause MP loss (which would impact on supply). Admin movement bonus may have been removed in some hexes but this is not required for moving across a clear open ground hex. The dispersed nature of the interdiction raids means that only very occasional did interdiction occur in non-clear hexes. Usually the affected hexes can be just bypassed. Unfortunately, the effort required to cause even the minimal level of interdiction on a non clear hex is material (I suspect that it proportional to the level of buggerance that it causes the Axis eg harder to interdict rough ground than light woods, but I don't really know).

Vet has been regularly flying dispersed levels of interdiction. In later turns there were a couple of instances where it has caused me to expend an additional MP or two. There may have been a incremental loss of trucking but I don't know how to prove this either way. My trucking losses have been low

The impact has been marginal over the first 10 turns. It has obliged me to run AS, but frankly I would be running this anyway. It must be better to employ the Long Range Air Command to do this than not flying at all. There may be marginally more effective missions though.

It does come at a cost though as it will rarely be possible to escort.


T3 AGN SoT Widespread Soviet interdiction came at a cost.png

Ya, I think this is a very good analysis of what has transpired. Thank you for sharing Jasonbroomer. So the compare and contrast between this game and ours would be the concentration of force on select parts of the battlefield on interdiction. Again, thank you.

[ShaggyHiK]

In fact, the most effective in this case was to carry out a ground attack on specific divisions, and not to make an interdict. Which will work somehow.

Raids, even without direct damage, would occur without encountering the enemy, causing fatigue in the target divisions exposed to impact. Which would reduce their action points as well, but in this case it's the striker who controls which divisions get fatigued.

And unlike an interdict, such an impact cannot simply be bypassed.

[M60A3TTS]

Is there a limit now on the number of strikes per hex since I have been gone? I believe there was talk of it.

Not that I am aware of. AFAIK the only limitation that was set was 200 aircraft on a mission. You can fly as many missions on as many days as your air force can bear.

[jasonbroomer]

T3 Axis Start of Turn

Vet is very good at doing irritating things as Soviets. In the south a number of my armoured columns have been cut off

T3 AGS SoT Soviet counter moves effective as I forgot to refuel panzers last turn by air .png (2.6 MiB) Viewed 1147 times

Compounding the problem is that I forgot to air resupply them last turn and the resulting lack of fuel means that they have pathetic MPs this turn. I may as well rest them, resupply and regain CPP

The Southern front also did some wriggling.

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A couple of regiments have been cut off but their starting supply was so good it didn't make any difference. Vet has also taken out one of my airports. I was so involved protecting rail lines that I overlooked this possibility.

Logistics

Supply needed 17,120 (16,960), trucks lost 2,369 (1,255). The figures in brackets are the corresponding numbers from my HLYA game. As expected, delays in setting up the train line in the north means that I am demanding more from trucking initially. Hopefully, I will get a payback during turns 4 to 6. I have a lot of trucks at the moment so I may as well use them. My supply needed is very similar, the strategic effect of my armoured regiments getting encircled is not significant.

[jasonbroomer]

T3 AGN

As I suspected last turn, the Baltics have been abandoned. I can't help but feel that this is a very dangerous strategy.

T3 AGN Abandoning Baltics is a big gamble.png (2.47 MiB) Viewed 1144 times

The sole Baltic defender, a border guard unit, disappeared quicker than a bride's nightie when it met one of my motorised regiments in the highlighted hex. I decide to gun this route aggressively and make it to the shores of the Gulf of Finland. A lurking Soviet motorised AT brigade could play havoc on the supply to my advanced units and rail repair but I see no hint of any defenders. I air reconed the area carefully. There appears to be only a small garrison at Tallinn. Fingers crossed. My aggression could cause the Soviets to tie up a lot of units to defend the Narva.

I reflect upon the situation and decide to begin to open the road from Pskov.

T3 AGN EoT this could be a trap in the Baltics but the resting Totenkofp now has an avenue to reinforce next turn.png (2.39 MiB) Viewed 1144 times

While this places a panzer division out of position, it opens up a route from my main forces coming up via Pskov. I hadn't envisaged a Leningrad push but if the Totenkofp was sent to the Narva, it could open the door quickly. At the moment I'm not committed but it's always good to have options.

Interestingly, motorised are better than non-motorised at river crossings according to the manual.

While I didn't have the MPs, I would not have connected up the armoured unit from Pskov with the Baltic thrust. If I had, this would have isolated a large tract of land in the middle which would have converted to my territory next turn. This would have buggered up my rail conversion plans for this turn.

Turning to to Pskov region, I make a cautious consolidation of land

T3 AGN EoT limiting Sov counterattack opps.png (914.74 KiB) Viewed 1144 times

I don't really want to suffer a counterattack. Infantry divisions are on their way but the bulk of my foot are refreshing themselves while still close to my supply stockpiles

T3 AGN EoT An entire army sits recovering in good supply.png (3.32 MiB) Viewed 1144 times

Thankfully, my RADs deployed on the mainline rail running to Vilnius, filling the gaps. We will still need to wait till next turn for freight to run but my rail conversions are progressing rapidly.

[jasonbroomer]

T3 AGC

I am in two minds whether to push ahead while the Soviets are still disorganised or be more cautious. As with around Pskov, I elect for a modest advance

T3 AGC EoT Cautious advance hopefully risking only 3 units with encirlcement.png (2.42 MiB) Viewed 1143 times

This allows my advanced infantry divisions to arrive and some panzer divisions to rest. In the north I target unoccupied ground that I really wouldn't want to fight for. The most eastward panzer division took the opportunity to jump into those heavy woods. This location will provide an excellent anchor point for my manoeuvres. In the south Das Reich takes open terrain to threaten a southern attack on Smolensk. I'm massing for a push from the north but it is good to keep the Soviets guessing. You may note from this picture that this is the route that my supplies are coming from.

If Vet wants to counterattack me, he will either have to fight me in terrain or transverse at least two hexes of my territory.

In this game, I am largely ignoring the Gomel region

T3 AGC EoT Gomel region ignored.png (2.53 MiB) Viewed 1143 times

I have a motorised regiment here which is probing forward. The idea is that the following infantry/SEC division will follow it next turn to open up the terrain capture. There is no FBD in this picture, Vets attempts to disrupt my rail conversion in Belorussia were in vain. I'm sure that he has already guessed this though.

[jasonbroomer]

T3 AGS

The Rom Armoured division has some fun

T3 AGS Rom armour kicks butt .png (1.85 MiB) Viewed 1135 times

Even though this mountain division had already been retreated, this battle went way above my expectations.

In general we tidy up the situation in the south. Our panzers will be bypassing Odessa and aiming for the other Black Sea ports.

T3 AGS EoT Hopefully well positioned for next turn.png (2.8 MiB) Viewed 1135 times

and make continued leisurely progress towards Kiev.

T3 AGS EoT More leisurely advance.png (2.33 MiB) Viewed 1135 times

With the main pockets now collapsed, we account for over 1m of the Soviets

T3 AGS EoT we hit a new big number.png (412.93 KiB) Viewed 1135 times

[Veterin]

T3 Soviet

JB is making the most of these early turns and capturing a lot of ground. His infantry would be close to the frontline now so I don’t have long to firm up defences in a few key sectors. The changes to reduce Soviet trucks a few patches ago was a good one as it really reduces their mobility and ability to supply themselves the first 5-7 turns (as it should be).

1.png (3.43 MiB) Viewed 1044 times

He has at least 1 panzer corps racing through Estonia. I sent some reinforcements to Narva last turn as I would like to slow him down on favourable terrain. I’ll likely need to shift some units on the path to Luga/Novgorod as that’s more important than delaying further at Pskov.

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The Smolensk/Velike front is interesting. He’s flipped all the hexes up to my frontline and will likely pause for infantry which should be on the front this turn or next. I obviously want to make sure he can’t go straight through Smolensk but I need to keep the north and south strong enough that he can’t pass that quickly as well.

3.png (1.92 MiB) Viewed 1044 times

I’ve got a concentration of units around Kiev defending the Dnepr. I need to make sure he doesn’t have an easy crossing here either.

[Veterin]

T3 Soviet Cont

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As JB pointed out in his write up, the Romanians are running all over the soviets with this heavy rout on a mountain division. On t1 I formed up all my MIGs around Crimea so I’ll start doing some AS near Odessa as Axis NP will likely run in the next 1-2 turns. I plan on abandoning Odessa as it’s just not defendable in my opinion. Most of the units in the area here will pull back towards Nikolaev this turn.

7.png (852.84 KiB) Viewed 1043 times

Very active Soviet air phase again. Interdiction is becoming a lot less effective as now axis fighters are In forward deployed airfields and are interrupting/killing my sorties. Some very successful battles around Odessa as Axis HE-111H-3’s were intercepted by MIGs over the Gulf of Odessa. It’s highly likely that next turn there will be axis fighters running AS over this. In any event, Axis won’t even need to isolate Odessa as it will be sparsely defended.